SoulMonster Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: You are on sabbatical from your Guns N' Roses argument I see haha? Stop trying to start an argument with me and return to your unfinished business. I thought we were in agreement here now? The idea of free Internet is a good one but there are more important things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 In addition to info as a right and necessity in a democracy, theres the economic impact of internet access for all... The internet itself is an employment opportunity. The list is endless, from YouTuber/Podcaster through article writing/blogging, influencing and beyond. Or one can sell things on Ebay, etc. You can record music on your computer, have it mastered through really cool AI services online and then sell it on band camp. You can work as customer support for online stores. You can sell services online. One can job search and take trainings. Theres the social and professional networking. And there are supports and counselling for any anxieties around gaining employment. Almost all of us use the internet to gain employment, even just looking up job postings or emailing our cv. Or looking up travel direction stop our interviews. And for a lot of people, the internet is what puts food on the table. So one more employed tax payer to fund health care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 What unfinished business? 1 minute ago, soon said: In addition to info as a right and necessity in a democracy, theres the economic impact of internet access for all... The internet itself is an employment opportunity. The list is endless, from YouTuber/Podcaster through article writing/blogging, influencing and beyond. Or one can sell things on Ebay, etc. You can record music on your computer, have it mastered through really cool AI services online and then sell it on band camp. You can work as customer support for online stores. You can sell services online. One can job search and take trainings. Theres the social and professional networking. And there are supports and counselling for any anxieties around gaining employment. Almost all of us use the internet to gain employment, even just looking up job postings or emailing our cv. Or looking up travel direction stop our interviews. And for a lot of people, the internet is what puts food on the table. So one more employed tax payer to fund health care. Further to this, Internet to everyone is primarily a one-time cost (digging and laying the fibres or whatever infrastructure is used). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: What unfinished business? You could start an argument with a brick wall Souly haha. Are you aware that you have this gift? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said: You could start an argument with a brick wall Souly haha. Are you aware that you have this gift? You are the one trying to argue with me now. 4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: What unfinished business? Further to this, Internet to everyone is primarily a one-time cost (digging and laying the fibres or whatever infrastructure is used). It is not equivalent to the costs of health care, police, etc, that incur large costs every year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padme Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 1 hour ago, soon said: In addition to info as a right and necessity in a democracy, theres the economic impact of internet access for all... The internet itself is an employment opportunity. The list is endless, from YouTuber/Podcaster through article writing/blogging, influencing and beyond. Or one can sell things on Ebay, etc. You can record music on your computer, have it mastered through really cool AI services online and then sell it on band camp. You can work as customer support for online stores. You can sell services online. One can job search and take trainings. Theres the social and professional networking. And there are supports and counselling for any anxieties around gaining employment. Almost all of us use the internet to gain employment, even just looking up job postings or emailing our cv. Or looking up travel direction stop our interviews. And for a lot of people, the internet is what puts food on the table. So one more employed tax payer to fund health care. But tell me where the money is coming from. That's the problem with Corbyn and his promises. It's unrealistic. Nationalized railways, internet for all, food for all, houses for all, health care for all, etc. On top of that the UK needs a trasition year (or maybe more) because of Brexit. Too many things will be changing. Yes, actually one more employee and tax payer will be the one paying very hight taxes, I'm afraid. Banks and corporations would move elsewhere. They won't be paying for any of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, Padme said: But tell me where the money is coming from. That's the problem with Corbyn and his promises. It's unrealistic. Nationalized railways, internet for all, food for all, houses for all, health care for all, etc. On top of that the UK needs a trasition year (or maybe more) because of Brexit. Too many things will be changing. Yes, actually one more employee and tax payer will be the one paying very hight taxes, I'm afraid. Banks and corporations would move elsewhere. They won't be paying for any of that. But is free broadband really a large cost? Serious question. I thought it was pretty much a very insignificant thing on a national budget, and then one might argue that it can be done without having to affect more important things much. What we focus to spend money on is always a function of how much it costs vs its value. And with free broadband I feel it relatively is a quite important thing at a modest cost (except its first year, perhaps). Again, not saying it should be done if it cripples more important posts on the budget, but surely one can do it all? There has got to be something less important that can be slashed or delayed one year when the broadband infrastructure is developed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Padme said: But tell me where the money is coming from. That's the problem with Corbyn and his promises. It's unrealistic. Nationalized railways, internet for all, food for all, houses for all, health care for all, etc. On top of that the UK needs a trasition year (or maybe more) because of Brexit. Too many things will be changing. Yes, actually one more employee and tax payer will be the one paying very hight taxes, I'm afraid. Banks and corporations would move elsewhere. They won't be paying for any of that. I havent looked at Labours costing, but I can speak in general terms. I had only spoken to public broadband but I guess I can speak to the other items. Theres a few points Id make such as real cost, return on investment, hypocrisy and necessity. Given that things like railways are (often) run by and for capitalist profit, once nationalized the cost to consumer is related to the cost of the service, not the dogged pursuit of profit - ever expanding profit. Its not as if the gov will start paying the for the service as if the profit margins are part of the operating costs. And ideally the cost for a traveller lowers, which increases ridership, which then more securely funds the system. Its also a climate emergency imperative and works to help avert future catastrophes that would be incredibly expensive. As far as a return on investment, Id refer back to my initial post and also Id echo what Soulie is laying down with regards to broadband (it can be employment, and aids in gaining employment and education). A far as ensuring everyone is fed, its an issue of the social determinants of health. In a country with public medicine its important to keep people healthy to save on health care costs. Healthcare costs for serious and preventable disease far outweigh the cost of basic nourishment. Hunger and poverty spur crime as well. Our countries mismanage food and waste so much, so making sure the food we produce is consumed makes sense on many levels imho, including relieving the burden on our tax funded garbage collection and storage. Being nourished is important to the developing mind and the ability to learn. A healthy and educated mind will pay into the GDP later in life, rather then being a burden. And with adults its important to be nourished for maintaining upward mobility and an occupation, including employment. In theory its an investment in our farmers too. These countries have endless coffers of cash to invade Iraq based on a lie. Then to fight the terrorist groups that forms in the power vacuum that they left. Then stay for the oil. Given the tremendous wealth at hand its merely a lack of political will and nothing to do with balancing a budget, when the question of how to pay for health care will be covered is asked. I call hypocrisy on those politicians and pundits who would put forward those arguments. And while the tax payer might just see increased tax rates (or just tax the huge corporations more!!) they also save by not having to pay insurance and DIY care. They save on the train/commuting/travel/internet/etc. So does the consumer want to pay to a corporation or invest in themselves by giving money through taxes? Im a big fan of Naomi Kleins work. She's on tour for her current book On Fire: The Burning Case For a Green New Deal. In it she unpacks how the fight against the climate emergency needs to be holistic and needs to examine the nature of capitalism that produced this crisis. She talks about transitioning from a "dig and gig" mindset to a "care and repair" mindset. The idea being that the laissez faire attitudes promoted by capitalism which produces ecocide and the precariat (the "dig" and the "gig" in this analogy), is also what has us asking questions like 'how can we pay for all of a first world population to have food?' That question sounds inhumane when its stripped of the ruthless capitalist assumptions. We can choose to feed those in need and spend less on warfare, for instance. Then we recoup those costs from decreased demands on the healthcare, legal and social assistance systems. In Kliens proposition the act of providing affordable or free green transit is equally for the environment and for the people. Its recognizing the failed nature of the current order and seeks full scale systems change that solve myriad problems by operating from a new mindset. Edited November 16, 2019 by soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 Quote The cost (for free full-fibre broadband) could be higher than Labour estimates. The National Infrastructure Commission put the price tag at closer to £30bn. The chief executive of BT, Philip Jansen, said about £30-40bn was needed, but that a free service would lead to double that cost after eight years. He said the total would be “not short of £100bn”. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/15/labour-full-fibre-broadband-is-the-uk-lagging-behind-other-countries Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padme Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 1 hour ago, SoulMonster said: But is free broadband really a large cost? Serious question. I thought it was pretty much a very insignificant thing on a national budget, and then one might argue that it can be done without having to affect more important things much. What we focus to spend money on is always a function of how much it costs vs its value. And with free broadband I feel it relatively is a quite important thing at a modest cost (except its first year, perhaps). Again, not saying it should be done if it cripples more important posts on the budget, but surely one can do it all? There has got to be something less important that can be slashed or delayed one year when the broadband infrastructure is developed. Ah! "when broadband infrastructure is developed" You don't even know how much is going to cost. I don't know eaither. How long is going to take? Who is going to do that? How much money will be needed? Where that money will come from? Before I believe any promise from any polician I want a plan and information. I don't want to hear "I will do this and I will do that" Right now the number one priority for the UK is Brexit. They better get that one right. Assuming all goes well, then we can focus on free internet and free everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 11 minutes ago, Padme said: Ah! "when broadband infrastructure is developed" You don't even know how much is going to cost. I don't know eaither. How long is going to take? Who is going to do that? How much money will be needed? Where that money will come from? Before I believe any promise from any polician I want a plan and information. I don't want to hear "I will do this and I will do that" That's what politicians do, and how we can differentiate between them. But yeah, it only makes sense to question the plans of politicians. They promise a lot when in opposition, and have to excuse themselves while in power. Free food? Free housing? Sounds ridiculous. Free broadband? Sounds doable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padme Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: That's what politicians do, and how we can differentiate between them. But yeah, it only makes sense to question the plans of politicians. They promise a lot when in opposition, and have to excuse themselves while in power. Free food? Free housing? Sounds ridiculous. Free broadband? Sounds doable. First things first, Brexit transition, trade agreements with U.S., Canada, Australia, Germany, France, China, etc. Once all that gets done. Then we focus on free broadband and nationalized rail ways. In other words I want to hear Corbyn's plan for transition and future trade agreements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, Padme said: First things first, Brexit transition, trade agreements with U.S., Canada, Australia, Germany, France, China, etc. Once all that gets done. Then we focus on free broadband and nationalized rail ways. In other words I want to hear Corbyn's plan for transition and future trade agreements. Makes sense. Not sure I am a fan of nationalised railways but let's hear him out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padme Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Makes sense. Not sure I am a fan of nationalised railways but let's hear him out. Here Corbyn is doing something right. Drug companies from the U.S. shouldn't take over https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/16/labour-would-protect-nhs-in-law-from-us-drug-firms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Padme said: Here Corbyn is doing something right. Drug companies from the U.S. shouldn't take over https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/16/labour-would-protect-nhs-in-law-from-us-drug-firms As a person doing business with pharma, I can heartily agree. Don't give them a finger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 I don't even think Brexit is as big a priority as made out. NHS collapse, policing (London stabbings) and poverty are bigger issues for most people, although it is all connected in that Brexit has clogged-up the mechanism of functional government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariLegend Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 So the most recent polls tonight: Lib Dem surge continues (in London at least). They're successfully managing to split the remain vote in London to let the Tories in. Focusing their efforts on Labour and posting dogy polls through doors is working. However nationally the gap in the polls between Labour and the Torries is anywhere between 7 points (which with a not too horrible next few weeks for Labour could force a hung parliament with a not too huge swing, meaning 2nd referendum is alive) or 16 points which would be apocalyptic. Labour can't win this election, however it is still possible to get a 2nd referendum by stopping the Torries getting past 320 ish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) Apparently Andy's interview was car crash television. I'll watch it tomorrow then haha. PS Edited November 17, 2019 by DieselDaisy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 And this morning the latest edition of Labour's give a lot of free stuff away is dental care? Do you think Labour will nationalise prostitution tomorrow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said: And this morning the latest edition of Labour's give a lot of free stuff away is dental care? Do you think Labour will nationalise prostitution tomorrow? Well, something has got to be done with all those yellow teeth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padme Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said: And this morning the latest edition of Labour's give a lot of free stuff away is dental care? Do you think Labour will nationalise prostitution tomorrow? Well I understand free dental care. Corbyn himself is the best example of what would happen to everyone's teeth without proper and affordable dental care Everything that's health and hygiene related should be a priority. It is wrong to be careless with public health. As far as legal prostitution, Prince Andrew will be delighted. He can't wait Jokes aside,I think it's a matter of if you can't beat them, join them. Same can be said about pot and other illegal drugs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padme Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 This is it! Conservatives, Labour and Lib. Dem will have meetings with coorporations. They will present different plans to woo them. CBI annual conference https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50454627 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Padme said: This is it! Conservatives, Labour and Lib. Dem will have meetings with coorporations. They will present different plans to woo them. CBI annual conference https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50454627 Businesses will run a mile from Corbyn. PS One thing the Andy saga has done, unprecedentedly, is remove Brexit from the headlines and the nation's agenda, so we have that to thank him for. Edited November 18, 2019 by DieselDaisy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spunko12345 Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Sources say The Queen has lost control of the Palace. Harry is going off in his own direction and Andy has dropped a massive bollock by agreeing to do this interview. I swear she must despair on a daily basis at her children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 22 minutes ago, spunko12345 said: Sources say The Queen has lost control of the Palace. Harry is going off in his own direction and Andy has dropped a massive bollock by agreeing to do this interview. I swear she must despair on a daily basis at her children. She is 93 herself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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