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Debate on Social Agendas/Commentaries in Movies


Dazey

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1 hour ago, Silverburst80 said:

I read somewhere an all female version of Lord Of The Flies is in the works. They are taking the piss now aren't they?

They've already made two movies with all male casts.  If they're going to keep tapping the same well, what's the issue with doing something a little different with an all female cast?

Again, these are fictional characters.  They're not real.  They can be made to be something different.  

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57 minutes ago, downzy said:

They've already made two movies with all male casts.  If they're going to keep tapping the same well, what's the issue with doing something a little different with an all female cast?

Again, these are fictional characters.  They're not real.  They can be made to be something different.  

They can made to be different thats not really the issue, boys and girls are different after all. They are so different that it wouldn't be a stretch to say that pre pubescent boys/girls would create different types of societies if faced with the same situation. So for this particular film you would be not only be changing the characters..which i'm aware are not real...but the whole premise of the film. How about Hollywood comes up with an original concept involving young women, its a film that doesn't need to be made at all.

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1 hour ago, Silverburst80 said:

They can made to be different thats not really the issue, boys and girls are different after all. They are so different that it wouldn't be a stretch to say that pre pubescent boys/girls would create different types of societies if faced with the same situation. So for this particular film you would be not only be changing the characters..which i'm aware are not real...but the whole premise of the film. How about Hollywood comes up with an original concept involving young women, its a film that doesn't need to be made at all.

Sorry, I'm confused, what's the premise of the film for you?  

I've read the book a couple of times (though it's been awhile), and I thought the underlying premise of the story is the conflict between individuality versus groupthink, civilization versus dominance, good versus evil.  I'm not sure how those themes that drive the basic premise of the book can't be told through the lens of an all female cast?  

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The remake with a twist thing always felt awkward to me, all the way back to how in high school the "cool teacher" would turn Shakespeare into a rap.

Even the advent of all new content that has a female driven cast hasn't been overly exciting.  When Brides Maids was announced I think many good hearted people were excited like:

FTtmQew.gif

And then those hopes and dreams died...

Spoiler

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... when Maya Rudolph shitting herself in the middle of the street was the funniest scene in the entire film

I think its great that the door is now open.  And cant wait until things start to develop more organically.  I mean how could a movie starring Kemper, Wiig and Rudolph not be an instant classic?!?!  Parks and Rec was organic imo and was amazing.

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On 4/27/2018 at 1:14 AM, downzy said:

Sorry, I'm confused, what's the premise of the film for you?  

I've read the book a couple of times (though it's been awhile), and I thought the underlying premise of the story is the conflict between individuality versus groupthink, civilization versus dominance, good versus evil.  I'm not sure how those themes that drive the basic premise of the book can't be told through the lens of an all female cast?  

So being disrespectful of the source material is ok since it's being viewed as "progressive". In the Book, they are boys. Deviating from that is not respecting the source material. I don't care how you try to spin it, it's still not respecting the source material. Which is ALWAYS a GREAT idea :facepalm:

Which btw, go read the book again, that's not at all what it's about.

On 4/27/2018 at 6:54 AM, DieselDaisy said:

Then don't make another one. 

I agree, it doesn't need to be remade.

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Here is a refresher on the themes from Lord of the flies, and I'm sorry but men and women respond to these VERY differently. Purely doing a gender swap would NOT be realistic. Begging the question what else from the novel are they going to change? 

Civilization vs. Savagery

The overarching theme of Lord of the Flies is the conflict between the human impulse towards savagery and the rules of civilization which are designed to contain and minimize it. Throughout the novel, the conflict is dramatized by the clash between Ralph and Jack, who respectively represent civilization and savagery. The differing ideologies are expressed by each boy's distinct attitudes towards authority. While Ralph uses his authority to establish rules, protect the good of the group, and enforce the moral and ethical codes of the English society the boys were raised in, Jack is interested in gaining power over the other boys to gratify his most primal impulses. When Jack assumes leadership of his own tribe, he demands the complete subservience of the other boys, who not only serve him but worship him as an idol. Jack's hunger for power suggests that savagery does not resemble anarchy so much as a totalitarian system of exploitation and illicit power.

Golding's emphasis on the negative consequences of savagery can be read as a clear endorsement of civilization. In the early chapters of the novel, he suggests that one of the important functions of civilized society is to provide an outlet for the savage impulses that reside inside each individual. Jack's initial desire to kill pigs to demonstrate his bravery, for example, is channeled into the hunt, which provides needed food for the entire group. As long as he lives within the rules of civilization, Jack is not a threat to the other boys; his impulses are being re-directed into a productive task. Rather, it is when Jack refuses to recognize the validity of society and rejects Ralph's authority that the dangerous aspects of his character truly emerge. Golding suggests that while savagery is perhaps an inescapable fact of human existence, civilization can mitigate its full expression.

The rift between civilization and savagery is also communicated through the novel's major symbols: the conch shell, which is associated with Ralph, and The Lord of the Flies, which is associated with Jack. The conch shell is a powerful marker of democratic order on the island, confirming both Ralph's leadership-determined by election-and the power of assembly among the boys. Yet, as the conflict between Ralph and Jack deepens, the conch shell loses symbolic importance. Jack declares that the conch is meaningless as a symbol of authority and order, and its decline in importance signals the decline of civilization on the island. At the same time, The Lord of the Flies, which is an offering to the mythical "beast" on the island, is increasingly invested with significance as a symbol of the dominance of savagery on the island, and of Jack's authority over the other boys. The Lord of the Flies represents the unification of the boys under Jack's rule as motivated by fear of "outsiders": the beast and those who refuse to accept Jack's authority. The destruction of the conch shell at the scene of Piggy's murder signifies the complete eradication of civilization on the island, while Ralph's demolition of The Lord of the Flies-he intends to use the stick as a spear-signals his own descent into savagery and violence. By the final scene, savagery has completely displaced civilization as the prevailing system on the island.

Individualism vs. Community

One of the key concerns of Lord of the Flies is the role of the individual in society. Many of the problems on the island-the extinguishing of the signal fire, the lack of shelters, the mass abandonment of Ralph's camp, and the murder of Piggy-stem from the boys' implicit commitment to a principle of self-interest over the principle of community. That is, the boys would rather fulfill their individual desires than cooperate as a coherent society, which would require that each one act for the good of the group. Accordingly, the principles of individualism and community are symbolized by Jack and Ralph, respectively. Jack wants to "have fun" on the island and satisfy his bloodlust, while Ralph wants to secure the group's rescue, a goal they can achieve only by cooperating. Yet, while Ralph's vision is the most reasonable, it requires work and sacrifice on the part of the other boys, so they quickly shirk their societal duties in favor of fulfilling their individual desires. The shelters do not get built because the boys would rather play; the signal fire is extinguished when Jack's hunters fail to tend to it on schedule.

The boys' self-interestedness culminates, of course, when they decide to join Jack's tribe, a society without communal values whose appeal is that Jack will offer them total freedom. The popularity of his tribe reflects the enormous appeal of a society based on individual freedom and self-interest, but as the reader soon learns, the freedom Jack offers his tribe is illusory. Jack implements punitive and irrational rules and restricts his boys' behavior far more than Ralph did. Golding thus suggests not only that some level of communal system is superior to one based on pure self-interest, but also that pure individual freedom is an impossible value to sustain within a group dynamic, which will always tend towards societal organization. The difficult question, of course, is what individuals are willing to give up to gain the benefits of being in the group.

The Nature of Evil

Is evil innate within the human spirit, or is it an influence from an external source? What role do societal rules and institutions play in the existence of human evil? Does the capacity for evil vary from person to person, or does it depend on the circumstances each individual faces? These questions are at the heart of Lord of the Flies which, through detailed depictions of the boys' different responses to their situation, presents a complex articulation of humanity's potential for evil.

It is important to note that Golding's novel rejects supernatural or religious accounts of the origin of human evil. While the boys fear the "beast" as an embodiment of evil similar to the Christian concept of Satan, the novel emphasizes that this interpretation is not only mistaken but also, ironically, the motivation for the boys' increasingly cruel and violent behavior. It is their irrational fear of the beast that informs the boys' paranoia and leads to the fatal schism between Jack and Ralph and their respective followers, and this is what prevents them from recognizing and addressing their responsibility for their own impulses. Rather, as The Lord of the Flies communicates to Simon in the forest glade, the "beast" is an internal force, present in every individual, and is thus incapable of being truly defeated. That the most ethical characters on the island-Simon and Ralph-each come to recognize his own capacity for evil indicates the novel's emphasis on evil's universality among humans.

Even so, the novel is not entirely pessimistic about the human capacity for good. While evil impulses may lurk in every human psyche, the intensity of these impulses-and the ability to control them-appear to vary from individual to individual. Through the different characters, the novel presents a continuum of evil, ranging from Jack and Roger, who are eager to engage in violence and cruelty, to Ralph and Simon, who struggle to contain their brutal instincts. We may note that the characters who struggle most successfully against their evil instincts do so by appealing to ethical or social codes of behavior. For example, Ralph and Piggy demand the return of Piggy's glasses because it is the "right thing to do." Golding suggests that while evil may be present in us all, it can be successfully suppressed by the social norms that are imposed on our behavior from without or by the moral norms we decide are inherently "good," which we can internalize within our wills.

The ambiguous and deeply ironic conclusion of Lord of the Flies, however, calls into question society's role in shaping human evil. The naval officer, who repeats Jack's rhetoric of nationalism and militarism, is engaged in a bloody war that is responsible for the boys' aircraft crash on the island and that is mirrored by the civil war among the survivors. In this sense, much of the evil on the island is a result not of the boys' distance from society, but of their internalization of the norms and ideals of that society-norms and ideals that justify and even thrive on war. Are the boys corrupted by the internal pressures of an essentially violent human nature, or have they been corrupted by the environment of war they were raised in? Lord of the Flies offers no clear solution to this question, provoking readers to contemplate the complex relationships among society, morality, and human nature.

Man vs. Nature

Lord of the Flies introduces the question of man's ideal relationship with the natural world. Thrust into the completely natural environment of the island, in which no humans exist or have existed, the boys express different attitudes towards nature that reflect their distinct personalities and ideological leanings. The boys' relationships to the natural world generally fall into one of three categories: subjugation of nature, harmony with nature, and subservience to nature. The first category, subjugation of nature, is embodied by Jack, whose first impulse on the island is to track, hunt, and kill pigs. He seeks to impose his human will on the natural world, subjugating it to his desires. Jack's later actions, in particular setting the forest fire, reflect his deepening contempt for nature and demonstrate his militaristic, violent character. The second category, harmony with nature, is embodied by Simon, who finds beauty and peace in the natural environment as exemplified by his initial retreat to the isolated forest glade. For Simon, nature is not man's enemy but is part of the human experience. The third category, subservience to nature, is embodied by Ralph and is the opposite position from Jack's. Unlike Simon, Ralph does not find peaceful harmony with the natural world; like Jack, he understands it as an obstacle to human life on the island. But while Jack responds to this perceived conflict by acting destructively towards animals and plant life, Ralph responds by retreating from the natural world. He does not participate in hunting or in Simon's excursions to the deep wilderness of the forest; rather, he stays on the beach, the most humanized part of the island. As Jack's hunting expresses his violent nature to the other boys and to the reader, Ralph's desire to stay separate from the natural world emphasizes both his reluctance to tempt danger and his affinity for civilization.

Dehumanization of Relationships

In Lord of the Flies, one of the effects of the boys' descent into savagery is their increasing inability to recognize each other's humanity. Throughout the novel, Golding uses imagery to imply that the boys are no longer able to distinguish between themselves and the pigs they are hunting and killing for food and sport. In Chapter Four, after the first successful pig hunt, the hunters re-enact the hunt in a ritual dance, using Mauriceas a stand-in for the doomed pig. This episode is only a dramatization, but as the boys' collective impulse towards complete savagery grows stronger, the parallels between human and animal intensify. In Chapter Seven, as several of the boys are hunting the beast, they repeat the ritual with Robert as a stand-in for the pig; this time, however, they get consumed by a kind of "frenzy" and come close to actually killing him. In the same scene, Jack jokes that if they do not kill a pig next time, they can kill a littlun in its place. The repeated substitution of boy for pig in the childrens' ritual games, and in their conversation, calls attention to the consequences of their self-gratifying behavior: concerned only with their own base desires, the boys have become unable to see each other as anything more than objects subject to their individual wills. The more pigs the boys kill, the easier it becomes for them to harm and kill each other. Mistreating the pigs facilitates this process of dehumanization.

The early episodes in which boys are substituted for pigs, either verbally or in the hunting dance, also foreshadow the tragic events of the novel's later chapters, notably the murders of Simon and Piggy and the attempt on Ralph's life. Simon, a character who from the outset of the novel is associated with the natural landscape he has an affinity for, is murdered when the other children mistake him for "the beast"-a mythical inhuman creature that serves as an outlet for the children's fear and sadness. Piggy's name links him symbolically to the wild pigs on the island, the immediate target for Jack's violent impulses; from the outset, when the other boys refuse to call him anything but "Piggy," Golding establishes the character as one whose humanity is, in the eyes of the other boys, ambiguous. The murders of Simon and Piggy demonstrate the boys' complete descent into savagery. Both literally (Simon) and symbolically (Piggy), the boys have become indistinguishable from the animals that they stalk and kill.

The Loss of Innocence

At the end of Lord of the Flies, Ralph weeps "for the end of innocence," a lament that retroactively makes explicit one of the novel's major concerns, namely, the loss of innocence. When the boys are first deserted on the island, they behave like children, alternating between enjoying their freedom and expressing profound homesickness and fear. By the end of the novel, however, they mirror the warlike behavior of the adults of the Home Counties: they attack, torture, and even murder one another without hesitation or regret. The loss of the boys' innocence on the island runs parallel to, and informs their descent into savagery, and it recalls the Bible's narrative of the Fall of Man from paradise.

Accordingly, the island is coded in the early chapters as a kind of paradise, with idyllic scenery, fresh fruit, and glorious weather. Yet, as in the Biblical Eden, the temptation toward corruption is present: the younger boys fear a "snake-thing." The "snake-thing" is the earliest incarnation of the "beast" that, eventually, will provoke paranoia and division among the group. It also explicitly recalls the snake from the Garden of Eden, the embodiment of Satan who causes Adam and Eve's fall from grace. The boys' increasing belief in the beast indicates their gradual loss of innocence, a descent that culminates in tragedy. We may also note that the landscape of the island itself shifts from an Edenic space to a hellish one, as marked by Ralph's observation of the ocean tide as an impenetrable wall, and by the storm that follows Simon's murder.

The forest glade that Simon retreats to in Chapter Three is another example of how the boys' loss of innocence is registered on the natural landscape of the island. Simon first appreciates the clearing as peaceful and beautiful, but when he returns, he finds The Lord of the Flies impaled at its center, a powerful symbol of how the innocence of childhood has been corrupted by fear and savagery.

Even the most sympathetic boys develop along a character arc that traces a fall from innocence (or, as we might euphemize, a journey into maturity). When Ralph is first introduced, he is acting like a child, splashing in the water, mocking Piggy, and laughing. He tells Piggy that he is certain that his father, a naval commander, will rescue him, a conviction that the reader understands as the wishful thinking of a little boy. Ralph repeats his belief in their rescue throughout the novel, shifting his hope that his own father will discover them to the far more realistic premise that a passing ship will be attracted by the signal fire on the island. By the end of the novel, he has lost hope in the boys' rescue altogether. The progression of Ralph's character from idealism to pessimistic realism expresses the extent to which life on the island has eradicated his childhood.

The Negative Consequences of War

In addition to its other resonances, Lord of the Flies is in part an allegory of the Cold War. Thus, it is deeply concerned with the negative effects of war on individuals and for social relationships. Composed during the Cold War, the novel's action unfolds from a hypothetical atomic war between England and "the Reds," which was a clear word for communists. Golding thus presents the non-violent tensions that were unfolding during the 1950s as culminating into a fatal conflict-a narrative strategy that establishes the novel as a cautionary tale against the dangers of ideological, or "cold," warfare, becoming hot. Moreover, we may understand the conflict among the boys on the island as a reflection of the conflict between the democratic powers of the West and the communist presence throughout China, Eastern Europe, and the Soviet Union. (China's cultural revolution had not yet occurred, but its communist revolution was fresh in Western memory.) Ralph, an embodiment of democracy, clashes tragically with Jack, a character who represents a style of military dictatorship similar to the West's perception of communist leaders such as Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong. Dressed in a black cape and cap, with flaming red hair, Jack also visually evokes the "Reds" in the fictional world of the novel and the historical U.S.S.R., whose signature colors were red and black. As the tension between the boys comes to a bloody head, the reader sees the dangerous consequences of ideological conflict.

The arrival of the naval officer at the conclusion of the narrative underscores these allegorical points. The officer embodies war and militaristic thinking, and as such, he is symbolically linked to the brutal Jack. The officer is also English and thus linked to the democratic side of the Cold War, which the novel vehemently defends. The implications of the officer's presence are provocative: Golding suggests that even a war waged in the name of civilization can reduce humanity to a state of barbarism. The ultimate scene of the novel, in which the boys weep with grief for the loss of their innocence, implicates contemporary readers in the boys' tragedy. The boys are representatives, however immature and untutored, of the wartime impulses of the period.

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4 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

So being disrespectful of the source material is ok since it's being viewed as "progressive". In the Book, they are boys. Deviating from that is not respecting the source material. I don't care how you try to spin it, it's still not respecting the source material. Which is ALWAYS a GREAT idea :facepalm:

Which btw, go read the book again, that's not at all what it's about.

 

A) No one is forcing you, myself, or anyone to see it. If having the story told from the perspective of girls bothers you so much, don’t see it. 

B) You have repeatedly demonstrated zero consistency throughout this thread with respect to what demographic or ethnic changes are acceptable.  Some you find acceptable for reasons that can only considered arbitrary and personal, others because of, well, reasons that still make little sense to me, you find offensive.

C) People make changes to originals all the time.  Is Guns version of KOHD disrespectful to Dylan’s?  Was the 1990’s Romeo and Juliet disrespectful of Shakespeare for setting it in the 1990s?  Artists make changes all the time to originals without being accused of being disrespectful.  But they decide to redo the Lord of the Flies with a female cast and it’s disrespectful.  The movie hasn’t even been made and you’re already writing it off because heaven forbid, the story just can’t be told through a different perspective.  

 

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No I don't like the 90s Romeo and Juliet. I also found the modern music in the Great Gatsby to be distracting and unfortunate. I understand WHY they do these things, to try and get younger people to relate to the story. Having said that, I find it quite derivative. Those stories are strong enough to stand on their own, they don't need a "modern twist". If anything, the "modern twist" takes a classic story and makes it become dated as soon as some time passes from it's release. Like Romeo and Juliet for example, that movie is VERY dated now, because of the "modern twist". The same will happen to Gatsby. So essentially, they took classic stories and "dated" them is all they accomplished in the grand scheme. 

As for Lord of the Flies, I personally feel that is one of the best novels of the 20th Century. I would place it a head of Catcher in the Rye and other works that tend to get more publicity. So I am bias, in the sense I feel it is perfect as is, so yes any deviating from that I take offense to. Especially since all this movie will really accomplish is taking another classic work and "date" it. 

As for your knocking on heavens door comparison, I'm sure PLENTY of Dylan fans find the guns version derivative. My only rebuttle is that's not an apples and apples comparison here. Music has ALWAYS been "covered" since the beginning of music. I'm sure there were cavemen "covering" music that an earlier caveman played. You can't say the same for novels or films. The original source material is the definitive version, period. 

Edited by Iron MikeyJ
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Now let me be clear here... If they wanted to do a film that INSPIRED by Lord of the Flies, takes some of the themes from the book, but tells them from a female perspective, I dont have a problem with that. As long as they dont call it Lord of the Flies and are open and honest about it being inspired by it. But will they do that? Probably not. They Will change the genders,  change the names, and STILL call it Lord of the Flies. That's EXTREMELY derivative my friend.

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12 hours ago, downzy said:

A) No one is forcing you, myself, or anyone to see it. If having the story told from the perspective of girls bothers you so much, don’t see it. 

B) You have repeatedly demonstrated zero consistency throughout this thread with respect to what demographic or ethnic changes are acceptable.  Some you find acceptable for reasons that can only considered arbitrary and personal, others because of, well, reasons that still make little sense to me, you find offensive.

C) People make changes to originals all the time.  Is Guns version of KOHD disrespectful to Dylan’s?  Was the 1990’s Romeo and Juliet disrespectful of Shakespeare for setting it in the 1990s?  Artists make changes all the time to originals without being accused of being disrespectful.  But they decide to redo the Lord of the Flies with a female cast and it’s disrespectful.  The movie hasn’t even been made and you’re already writing it off because heaven forbid, the story just can’t be told through a different perspective.  

 

How long have you got?

What can I say? I like my Shakespeare in doublets!

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Re: Lord of the Flies..I highly highly doubt girls would react in the same way as boys in this situation. Yes, there would be divisions drawn and cliques formed, bc girls can be mean, but in general, females are much more willing to work co-operatively for the greater good, and that would eventually win out. There is no way they would descend into the savagery that the boys did. So I don't see how the story using girls, could possibly be the same story..it would have to be marketed as an adaptation of sorts.

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4 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

What? Are you arguing for Judisim?

Sure, why not? Let's go with that. It's no less silly but it's at least had a head start.

Edited by Dazey
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16 hours ago, Dazey said:

Sure, why not? Let's go with that. It's no less silly but it's at least had a head start.

Psst, he doesn't like Jews :lol:  A long time ago they killed uh...a Jew.  And they've been fucked ever since!   Actually, they were fucked before that but that was the last straw!

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1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

Psst, he doesn't like Jews :lol:  A long time ago they killed uh...a Jew.  And they've been fucked ever since!   Actually, they were fucked before that but that was the last straw!

I never said I didn't like them Len... I have no problem with them what so ever. 

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6 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

Well you summed it up very nicely in that case.

Where were you in book club, cunt? :lol:

Lol, no book club. I did do a study on it at one point during my youth though. Even though I was already familiar with the story (from seeing the movies) I always took it at face value. When I learned about the underlining issues, it really blew my mind. Honestly more so than just about any book since (outside of the bible). IMO it's one of the deepest pieces of literate out there, and an absolutely masterpiece. So you can say it is a story that is near and dear to my heart. Again outside of the bible, I have never read another book that captivated me, made me think, entertained, and had such power as Lord of the Flies. I think it's brilliant.

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