Losing Respect For An Artist

[Jabberwocky]

There is a quote that says you must separate the art from the artist. But is there a point to where that excuse doesn't even fly anymore? This is where I have found that point and it disgusts me that I ever supported this artist. Some of you know that I was a huge fan of Poppy. I loved her videos, her music, her whole aesthetic. I even had her as my avatar and signature here on this forum.

When you find out that she, and collaborator Titanic Sinclair, stalked and harassed his former collaborator (and at that time his girlfriend) Mars Argo to the point that she had to leave LA, go into hiding, and give up on her artistic endeavors is pretty shitty. More on that in a minute. I discovered Mars around the same time I discovered Poppy. Both make great music. Hell, Mars even used to make videos, even though they are all privatized or deleted now. The problem is one of profiteering off of the other. How so? By outright stealing everything that Mars did and repackaging it for Poppy. Hell they even steal designs and artwork from Deviantart and Tumblr and package them for merch sales.

Seems that the only artistry they know of is the art of con-artistry. Titanic not only stole but was very abusive towards Mars. There is proof (photos and texts) of verbal, mental, and even physical abuse. Breaking into her apartment many times. Threatening suicide. Shit talking and calling her a "trust fund baby" even though he had no problems getting money from her father to start up their endeavor.  Hypocrisy at it's finest. But now I can take comfort that Mars is suing both Titanic and Poppy for copyright infringement, common law of publicity, violation of California's unfair business law, and domestic violence damages. I hope she wins big time.

What I thought was a critique of pop and internet culture was nothing more than a ploy to continue to harass Mars. When you appropriate someone else's hard work and then help drive them out of town makes you as guilty as the shitbag you collaborate with. Poppy is not innocent. Poppy went along with this and that makes me sick and saddened as a fan. I feel like I've been suckered.

So the question I pose is what would it take for you to lose respect for an artist? Is behind the scenes stuff of no importance and you can separate the art and artist?

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Jabberwocky

[moreblack]

Artists are artists, not paragons of morality and decency. I'm sure there's bad shit on almost every artist most people like.

[Gordon Comstock]

I'm kind of indifferent to how a person acts in their private life as long as their music doesn't suffer as a result. Some of my favourite artists are notorious assholes, I mean we're on a GNR forum so I guess that could true for most of us, but it'd probably take some shit like Gary Glitter or that guy from "Lost Prophets" or whatever they were called, where they're just beyond fucked up, for me to just abandon something I liked.

I've only ever heard of Poppy from your posts about her. She was weird.

[Jabberwocky]

I get what ya'll are saying but there is being an asshole just to be one. But that type of asshole is mostly being egocentric. Then there is being an asshole to a degree that you scare the shit out of someone that they feel like they have to quit what they love doing. Mars has got PTSD from all of this. What I posted was a very brief summary of what Poppy, and more importantly Titanic did to Mars. I'm talking Chris Brown/Phil Spector type of abuse. And this isn't a he said, she said thing. There is photographic proof of what happened and it is spreading like wildfire through social media. I read the 44 page lawsuit and it is VERY damning.

If Titanic/Poppy were really artists then they wouldn't have to steal others ideas to make content. Most of Poppy's videos are jabs at Mars if you know the context of them or had prior knowledge of who Mars was. They may try to disguise theirs as social commentary but they're not anymore. Meaning when Titanic and Mars were making videos they indeed were satirical. Mars exits and in comes Poppy. Now the satire is slightly shifted, on a surface level, but now the element of "let's fuck with Mars while were at it" is introduced. At the time not many people even knew who Mars was, myself included. But there was a big hub bub about where did Mars go? She completely disappeared and all but 3 videos (out of 90) were left on her channel.

Titanic took advantage of this and brought in Poppy to be his Mars Argo 2.0 plain and simple. I could go on and get very nerdy and tedious with this but I'll refrain The videos are weird but that was what was so endearing about them. You could take them on their own or build them up as a story. If Titanic did all of this bullshit on his own it would be one thing but for the fact that Poppy had a hand in this makes me no longer a fan of hers. She decided that fame and fortune was more important than the safety and well-being of another human being.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Jabberwocky

[Len Cnut]

I don't know or care about what people do in their private life to be honest, its kind of a blind alley.  It can be interesting y'know, finding out a little about the people who make music but like...I dunno, broadly speaking I think good artists are kind of arseholes by definition.  Thats not excuse like...abhorrant behaviour but, I dunno, some guys playing te violin in a subway, i stop and go 'wow, thats amazing the way he does that!', i don't discount the outside possibility that he might've fiddled with a kid or raped a grandma that morning, its a crazy world out there   Was Jim Morrison a 'nice' person?  Was Mick Jagger?  John Lydon?  Are they really people that you would've enjoyed spending your time around?  As my sig says the man on the street is a cunt, be surprised when someone is nice, don't be surprised when someones a ball-bag because you'll spend two thirds of your life in shock if you do.

[DieselDaisy]

I'm exclusively listening to Wagner right now so you're talking to the expert.

It is best to not bother with their personalities. 99% of rock stars for instance seem money mad, greedy to sickening levels. 

[Len Cnut]

10 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I'm exclusively listening to Wagner right now so you're talking to the expert.

It is best to not bother with their personalities. 99% of rock stars for instance seem money mad, greedy to sickening levels. 

Didnt Wagner once say that the best service Jews can do to humankind is to set themselves alight?   Mad cunt. Couldn’t half bash out a tune or too though!  I want to explore his stuff more but its difficult exploring stuff that you have little to no reference point for.  Sort of like Jazz and blues I suppose, i got into that stuff by just picking an artist, getting a CD and seeing what happens.  

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

Didnt Wagner once say that the best service Jews can do to humankind is to set themselves alight?   Mad cunt. Couldn’t half bash out a tune or too though!  I want to explore his stuff more but its difficult exploring stuff that you have little to no reference point for.  Sort of like Jazz and blues I suppose, i got into that stuff by just picking an artist, getting a CD and seeing what happens.  

It is probably worthwhile entering his music through a compilation of his orchestral overtures. 

[Len Cnut]

5 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is probably worthwhile entering his music through a compilation of his orchestral overtures. 

Any reccomendations?

[DieselDaisy]

4 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Any reccomendations?

There are a lot of choices really. I have one somewhere but cannot remember the name of it. But something like this,

(Furtwängler whose Tristan I am listening to - this guy is a genius),

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wilhelm-Furtwängler-Wagner-Richard/dp/B0000067UL/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1524734428&sr=1-8&keywords=wagner+furtwangler

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Jochum-Herbert-Karajan-Kubelik/dp/B0007DHPQW/ref=sr_1_14?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1524734148&sr=1-14&keywords=wagner

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Orchestral-Music-Richard/dp/B00006BCDJ/ref=sr_1_5?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1524734280&sr=1-5&keywords=wagner

(Karajan)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Tannhäuser-Overture-Siegfried-Liebestod/dp/B000001G9H/ref=sr_1_7?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1524734310&sr=1-7&keywords=wagner

Read the reviews on Amazon.

They are generally similar compilation from different conductors, repackaging the famous overtures/preludes (Tannhauser, Tristan, Lohengrin) and chucking in some other instrumental  bits and bobs such as ''Siegfried's Funeral March'' and the ''Liebestod''. 

[soon]

12 hours ago, Jabberwocky said:

There is a quote that says you must separate the art from the artist. But is there a point to where that excuse doesn't even fly anymore? This is where I have found that point and it disgusts me that I ever supported this artist. Some of you know that I was a huge fan of Poppy. I loved her videos, her music, her whole aesthetic. I even had her as my avatar and signature here on this forum.

When you find out that she, and collaborator Titanic Sinclair, stalked and harassed his former collaborator (and at that time his girlfriend) Mars Argo to the point that she had to leave LA, go into hiding, and give up on her artistic endeavors is pretty shitty. More on that in a minute. I discovered Mars around the same time I discovered Poppy. Both make great music. Hell, Mars even used to make videos, even though they are all privatized or deleted now. The problem is one of profiteering off of the other. How so? By outright stealing everything that Mars did and repackaging it for Poppy. Hell they even steal designs and artwork from Deviantart and Tumblr and package them for merch sales.

Seems that the only artistry they know of is the art of con-artistry. Titanic not only stole but was very abusive towards Mars. There is proof (photos and texts) of verbal, mental, and even physical abuse. Breaking into her apartment many times. Threatening suicide. Shit talking and calling her a "trust fund baby" even though he had no problems getting money from her father to start up their endeavor.  Hypocrisy at it's finest. But now I can take comfort that Mars is suing both Titanic and Poppy for copyright infringement, common law of publicity, violation of California's unfair business law, and domestic violence damages. I hope she wins big time.

What I thought was a critique of pop and internet culture was nothing more than a ploy to continue to harass Mars. When you appropriate someone else's hard work and then help drive them out of town makes you as guilty as the shitbag you collaborate with. Poppy is not innocent. Poppy went along with this and that makes me sick and saddened as a fan. I feel like I've been suckered.

So the question I pose is what would it take for you to lose respect for an artist? Is behind the scenes stuff of no importance and you can separate the art and artist?

 

That is indeed some seriously messed up stuff.  Im really sorry to hear that for everyone involved, including you.

I agree that the wisdom to separate art from artists has limits. I think it can become a shield to some terrible behaviours, but what bothers me most is when the actions of an individual actually compromise the integrity of their work.  Because real art should be touching on all the big themes such as morality and relationships to begin with - I personally want an artist who is bringing forward thoughts and wisdom from deep with in themselves, not just stringing words and images together that arent from their truth.  Im comfortable with a far degree of moral ambiguity in separating art from artists.  When contradiction comes into play Im most off put.

Great artists can still be shitty people.  Like Roger Waters was a shitty person and then in the Wall he lists all the ways he's an asshole and all his fears and shortcomings, and all his resentments as bricks in the Wall.  Then he orders the wall torn down leaving him 'exposed before his peers'.  I've got lots of room for all us failed people to be true artists, but not when the rough edges and wrongdoings are completely divorced from the artifice.

This case of Mars, Titanic and Poppy reminds me of how Jeordie White aka Twiggy Ramirez was partnered with a women who had her own band and career - Jessicka Addams from Jack Off Jill.  He not only beat and allegedly raped her, but he stole her look and persona.  He physically stole her signature doll dresses and copied her hair, make up and demeanour.  He left her in a traumatized state, unable to move her career forward, while he rose to fame playing a character of her.

In these cases someone has stolen someone else work.  So why would I value them as an artist - apparently even they dont think they have any worthwhile art?  And then add the truly horrible actions against a human being who also happens to be the actual artist you've been enjoying.  Thats some nasty shit.  Never happened to me, but I would certainly loose respect for that artists.