Guns N' Roses & related STUDIO SESSIONS - a definitive collection of available info (?)

[zombux]

5 hours ago, rumandraisin said:

There's a few versions of the 99 mixes, with Josh on drums, like Catcher and Irs

at this point, we still don't know how many of the "Rough Mixes #1-4" discs (or possibly also others with similar name) - in other words the mixes from 2000, which used a massive heap of pre-2000 songs or their parts - actually have Brain on drums. the newer part of the lot from 2001 has Brain on more or less everything, except for some old tracks here and there for comparison.

my thought is that Josh is on most 2000 mixes, maybe sometimes replaced with Brain, but this can't be proved until we actually listen to those tracks and can at least guess who is drumming (remember - Brain was tasked to replicate Josh at least in the beginning of his stint, so what sounds like Josh might actually be Brain). 

we'll see. 

I'll update the sheet during the weekend, because it doesn't look like we're getting more info anytime soon.

[zombux]

OK, sheet updated. your opinions? I included some speculative info, cuz we already had quite a lot speculative info in there.

I was tempted to re-work the "1999 leaks" section and move them right under it to "Rough Mixes" section - but I only have that info "confirmed" by a guy who later turned out to be a troll - so... I won't do that yet. so let's say I trust him in terms of "Rough Mixes CD #2" unconfirmed tracklist, but I don't trust him that the "1999 demos" come from the very same source.

 

see - the guy, legit or not, said that the "1999 leaks" come from a tape, which was a copy of a tape with recordings of a few songs from "Rough Mixes #1 and #3" (or maybe also "#2"). few songs leaked (IRS, TWAT, CITR and a clip of Hard School), the others were rumored to be hoarded for a long time (Atlas, Prostitute, maybe also Quick Song). now when this stuff surfaced in CD quality, all those are supposed to be the real deal and huge upgrade to the "1999 leaks" which in fact are "2000 rough mixes". again - IF the info from the troll was legit.

 

about the 3 "2001 leaks" - they were actually said to be have recorded in 2000, not sure if also mixed that year or not - the 3 songs (The Blues, Maddy, TWAT) might be the very same versions which are at the later 2001 CDs (like either their respective "solo" discs with various versions, or some "New Brain Drums" CDs), or alternate mixes or versions of those. at this point, we don't know.

 

if any of the info above gets confirmed in the near future, I will move the leaked songs into their respective position in the Village Studios section

Edited August 2, 2019 by zombux

[Voodoochild]

On 02/08/2019 at 10:15 AM, zombux said:

see - the guy, legit or not, said that the "1999 leaks" come from a tape, which was a copy of a tape with recordings of a few songs from "Rough Mixes #1 and #3" (or maybe also "#2"). few songs leaked (IRS, TWAT, CITR and a clip of Hard School), the others were rumored to be hoarded for a long time (Atlas, Prostitute, maybe also Quick Song). now when this stuff surfaced in CD quality, all those are supposed to be the real deal and huge upgrade to the "1999 leaks" which in fact are "2000 rough mixes". again - IF the info from the troll was legit.

 

about the 3 "2001 leaks" - they were actually said to be have recorded in 2000, not sure if also mixed that year or not - the 3 songs (The Blues, Maddy, TWAT) might be the very same versions which are at the later 2001 CDs (like either their respective "solo" discs with various versions, or some "New Brain Drums" CDs), or alternate mixes or versions of those. at this point, we don't know.

I think I may be the most annoying person in your threads haha. Sorry about that.

I disagree about this theory that the 1999 demos came from the same source. Those were clearly the Sean Beaven work, even the Checkmate clip. Unless this song radically changes on its guitar tone and arrangement, the 1999 one is different - there's some open chords in the main riff, panned to the center channel, and with a distintictive mix. Much like the IRS 1999 version, the guitars have the more industrial tone. I do agree that those 1999 demos came from a tape - it even sounds in a slight different key because the tape (or the tape deck) made it sound a bit slower. 

The 2001 leaks: I strongly believe those are mixes from early 2000. The ugly guitar parts sounds a lot like Axl playing it not to make the final cut, but rather as an indication of what he wants Buckethead to play, or where he could add something else besides what Robin already recorded. And I say it's early 2000 because Madagascar didn't have the wah riff after the solo yet, which was played in the RIR 3 live version - although that could be just because Robin plays it and Axl erased it after he left the band in 1999.

[zombux]

29 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

I think I may be the most annoying person in your threads haha. Sorry about that.

I disagree about this theory that the 1999 demos came from the same source. Those were clearly the Sean Beaven work, even the Checkmate clip. Unless this song radically changes on its guitar tone and arrangement, the 1999 one is different - there's some open chords in the main riff, panned to the center channel, and with a distintictive mix. Much like the IRS 1999 version, the guitars have the more industrial tone. I do agree that those 1999 demos came from a tape - it even sounds in a slight different key because the tape (or the tape deck) made it sound a bit slower. 

The 2001 leaks: I strongly believe those are mixes from early 2000. The ugly guitar parts sounds a lot like Axl playing it not to make the final cut, but rather as an indication of what he wants Buckethead to play, or where he could add something else besides what Robin already recorded. And I say it's early 2000 because Madagascar didn't have the wah riff after the solo yet, which was played in the RIR 3 live version - although that could be just because Robin plays it and Axl erased it after he left the band in 1999.

quite the opposite, my friend! I always appreciate your input and thoughts about how stuff was or "probably" was done.

at this point however, we just don't know what exactly are the "1999 demos" as opposed to "2001 demos" and also "2000 Rough Mixes #1-4" and the rest of stuff which seems to have come from 2001. 

yes, I also got the info about the tape, the "1999 demos" indeed sound a bit wrong, but I'm no audio guru so I'm not the right one to attempt to fix that.

my only "confirmation" about the songs actually coming from "Rough Mixes #1-4" come from the guy who claimed to have listened to them all - but as long as we can't listen to the tracks themselves - it's all just our opinion or, say, educated guess.

anyway - what you say about "1999 demos" being actually Sean Beavan mix - we might actually not be in a huge disagreement on that here. because I think that the "2000 Rough Mixes #1-4" were "made" during various months of 2000 and were "finished" in November 2000 (whatever that means - probably just mixing tracks from the whole year and placing them onto 4 discs), but the tracks themselves might actually really be the old Beavan Mixes, just with (maybe?) some small tweaks by RTB... hard to say. he was supposed to have been there for over half a year already, but there's no real confirmation if he actually was working on those or what exactly was the purpose of those tracks. 

again - the "2001 part" of the lot seems to be absolutely clear - Brain on drums, Buckethead on guitar, RTB clearly all over the production. but the earlier stuff is not that clear. to me it looks like the old "Beavan album", with probably just a little bit of tweaks, or even without any tweaks and the date might just tell us the date of transfer (?). 

extremely hard to say until someone involved actually sheds some light on this.

as for the "2001 demo" leaks - our dear friend MSL insists that those indeed were made in 2000, so your theory seems to fit in. the "1999 demos" in my opinion definitely is Beavan era stuff, but I'm not sure what exactly was done to it in 2000 and what the dates at each track say...

Edited August 3, 2019 by zombux

[Voodoochild]

I dont know, I think that IRS, Catcher, TWAT and Checkmate 1999, or even OMG, all sound like a distinctive arrangement and direction. Every other single demo we heard sounds nothing like those mixes. From what sp1at told in some other place, Sean Beavan actually finished the mixing and got an album ready to mastering and release. If the CD rough mixes pictures are indeed real, the small variations and notes indicate that they went through new recordings (with Bucket and Brain for sure, but possible with Paul and Tommy too) and editing/rearrange old recordings in other to go with the new RTB direction. 

TL, DR: by 2000, there were no Sean Beavan mixes/arrangements.

Of course, it's all speculation and educated guesses. 

[rumandraisin]

It's quite clear from the excellent Chinese Whispers post at gnrevolution that once Josh left and Brain took over he was given transcripts, notation of every track. To learn and cover exactly. From then onwards, in early 2000 a period of constant rerecording began. Bucket joining that year added further sessions along with robin coming back laying down further ideas and bringing new songs to the table. Then RTB wanting thing rerecorded from scratch, a lot of which was undone once he left. Again, Richard replacing Paul... bumble... Everything stems from the Sean beavan album, we have some parts on IRS that made it to the final mix, along with the vocals. By the album's release you've got vocal parts from 99 and guitars from 2006.  

[GivenToFly]

On 20/07/2018 at 6:24 PM, zombux said:

that one was a guest appearance, I didn't include that one because there were numerous others like that one!  

That would be amazing though, wouldn't it? A database of all the side projects and guest spots.

 

Thanks for putting this together. There's a lot of interesting stuff there that I had no clue about. (A studio Godfather theme? WHAT?)

Those missing songs with West Arkeen (assuming they all feature GNR) are my old GNR holy grail, there's nothing I'd want to hear more than that.

[Voodoochild]

8 hours ago, rumandraisin said:

It's quite clear from the excellent Chinese Whispers post at gnrevolution that once Josh left and Brain took over he was given transcripts, notation of every track. To learn and cover exactly. From then onwards, in early 2000 a period of constant rerecording began. Bucket joining that year added further sessions along with robin coming back laying down further ideas and bringing new songs to the table. Then RTB wanting thing rerecorded from scratch, a lot of which was undone once he left. Again, Richard replacing Paul... bumble... Everything stems from the Sean beavan album, we have some parts on IRS that made it to the final mix, along with the vocals. By the album's release you've got vocal parts from 99 and guitars from 2006.  

Indeed, although I think Richard didn't really replace Paul Tobias' in most of the tracks, but rather played in the newer ones or just added something to the infinite layers.

What you said about IRS reminded me of something else: the album featured a lot of re-amp'd guitars (recorded in a clean raw signal, and then sent back to an amp to get the sound they wanted). Not sure about the IRS intro, but the slow solo in the break seems to be the same take used in the 1999 and 2001 demos, but re-amped with more gain/distortion in the later demos and the final album. So it's possible that some guitar tracks that sounded different are in fact the same recording, just modified.

[Guest]

Nice read, good job.

Think I might have some UYI stuff that you have down as not circulated though.

Must check my externals when I get chance

[zombux]

6 minutes ago, Shacklermyrye said:

Nice read, good job.

Think I might have some UYI stuff that you have down as not circulated though.

Must check my externals when I get chance

if you really do - I'm listening  

[zombux]

updated. I've included the pile of AFD mixtapes which surfaced lately (and still are available for sale for ridiculous prices).

the AFD mixtape list is a bit crude, but I'll see if I can streamline it up a bit later. UYI will probably need the same treatment.

[DTJ80]

3 hours ago, zombux said:

updated. I've included the pile of AFD mixtapes which surfaced lately (and still are available for sale for ridiculous prices).

the AFD mixtape list is a bit crude, but I'll see if I can streamline it up a bit later. UYI will probably need the same treatment.

What is this mixtape stuff???

[31illusions]

8 hours ago, zombux said:

updated. I've included the pile of AFD mixtapes which surfaced lately (and still are available for sale for ridiculous prices).

the AFD mixtape list is a bit crude, but I'll see if I can streamline it up a bit later. UYI will probably need the same treatment.

Huh? What's this? Details please.

[zombux]

8 hours ago, DTJ80 said:

What is this mixtape stuff???

 

2 hours ago, 31illusions said:

Huh? What's this? Details please.

nothing really groundbreaking. some cassettes from AFD mixing process are available for sale. the price was $750, now I heard $1000. per each tape.

some Rough Mixes tapes have already been sold, those were probably the most interesting ones. the rest is more or less just album versions. no way someone would pay that money for nearly-album mixes.

[DTJ80]

3 hours ago, zombux said:

 

nothing really groundbreaking. some cassettes from AFD mixing process are available for sale. the price was $750, now I heard $1000. per each tape.

some Rough Mixes tapes have already been sold, those were probably the most interesting ones. the rest is more or less just album versions. no way someone would pay that money for nearly-album mixes.

Cheers - agreed the rough mixes would have been cool to hear.

[NOVEMBER COMA]

I'm sure I'm way behind the 8-ball but when was it confirmed that AFD DSE had new parts added by the NITL line-up? 

[zombux]

29 minutes ago, NOVEMBER COMA said:

I'm sure I'm way behind the 8-ball but when was it confirmed that AFD DSE had new parts added by the NITL line-up? 

officially? never.

[NOVEMBER COMA]

22 hours ago, zombux said:

officially? never.

That's what I thought. I just noticed it in this listing 

[CoBrA2168]

@zombux do you think you could match up the leaks from last week with the sessions CDs you added?  I guess we still don't know much about them...

[zombux]

On 9/5/2019 at 12:21 AM, CoBrA2168 said:

@zombux do you think you could match up the leaks from last week with the sessions CDs you added?  I guess we still don't know much about them...

yes, I can, but it's a hard job. I have some notes and my guesses, based on ID3 tags left in the leaked files - but I got informed that those might be wrong, so... the text below is just my guess and not really neccessarily close to truth  

anyway, sheet updated again and reworked at many places, reorganized for even better chronological flow, and the "1998-2001 leaks" have been temporarily placed right below the Village discs tracklists, until we have confirmed which of the tracks they match.

====

Prostitute v2 says Track 5 which likely matches Track 5 at Rough Mixes 1
Catcher says Track 2 on the same disc as IRS, which is completely wrong. it probably is in fact Track 7 from Rough Mixes 1
Silkworms only exists as Track 10 at Rough Mixes 1
IRS says Track 6, which might be the Track 6 from Rough Mixes 3
Jackie Chan/HS must be Track 7 from Rough Mixes 3

Going Down is probably Tommy Demo #2 from the Robin/Tommy demo disc, at least according to 3$P

The Blues is Track 9, which might be Track 9 from New Brain Drums CD, labeled 9. "The Blues"-Old Josh Drums, or less likely Track 9 from Rough Mixes 1
Chinese Josh is I think Track 7 from New Brain Drums CD, labeled as 7. "Chinese Democracy"-Old Josh Drums
Rhiad says Track 11 which might again be 11. "Rhiad"-Old Josh Drums from New Brain Drums CD

Prostitute v3 says Track 3, which might be 3. "Prostitute" from New Brain Drum Remixes with Axl CD

TWAT says Track 1 so it might be either Track 1 from the TWAT disc 1 (Rough Mixes of New Brain Drums), or Track 1 from the TWAT disc 2 (Brain Drum Remix With Snare Sample From Silkworms), less likely Track 2 from Rough Mixes 1

Chinese Stew might be Track 4 at Chinese Democracy disc, labeled 4. Guitars up 2.5 dB, Drums at Regular Level

===

The old TWAT leak from DJ Razz is hard to guess - common sense says it should be Track 2 from Rough Mixes 1, but the track length doesn't match.
Same with old Catcher leak from 2006 - we only know of one version that is on the discs, but the old leak sounds like even older version or alternate take - it's missing some additional guitar for example. It's impossible to tell which of the two Catchers come from the Village discs, until the discs leak.
IRS from DJ Razz has been made redundant because it was replaced by the exact same IRS now but with massively better quality.
Old "Checkmate" leak has first been made redundant by the original Hardschool leak, and now those two were made redundant by the more recent Hardschool ("Jackie Chan") which has slightly better quality.

The 3 "2001 leaks" reportedly also come from late 2000 or so, and TWAT has been made redundant by the last wave of leaks, because they are the exact identical track but in a little better quality.

The 3 "BBF guitar demos" also reportedly come from late 2000, but it's impossible to match them to any of the known tracks in this lot

[DTJ80]

21 hours ago, zombux said:

yes, I can, but it's a hard job. I have some notes and my guesses, based on ID3 tags left in the leaked files - but I got informed that those might be wrong, so... the text below is just my guess and not really neccessarily close to truth  

anyway, sheet updated again and reworked at many places, reorganized for even better chronological flow, and the "1998-2001 leaks" have been temporarily placed right below the Village discs tracklists, until we have confirmed which of the tracks they match.

====

Prostitute v2 says Track 5 which likely matches Track 5 at Rough Mixes 1
Catcher says Track 2 on the same disc as IRS, which is completely wrong. it probably is in fact Track 7 from Rough Mixes 1
Silkworms only exists as Track 10 at Rough Mixes 1
IRS says Track 6, which might be the Track 6 from Rough Mixes 3
Jackie Chan/HS must be Track 7 from Rough Mixes 3

Going Down is probably Tommy Demo #2 from the Robin/Tommy demo disc, at least according to 3$P

The Blues is Track 9, which might be Track 9 from New Brain Drums CD, labeled 9. "The Blues"-Old Josh Drums, or less likely Track 9 from Rough Mixes 1
Chinese Josh is I think Track 7 from New Brain Drums CD, labeled as 7. "Chinese Democracy"-Old Josh Drums
Rhiad says Track 11 which might again be 11. "Rhiad"-Old Josh Drums from New Brain Drums CD

Prostitute v3 says Track 3, which might be 3. "Prostitute" from New Brain Drum Remixes with Axl CD

TWAT says Track 1 so it might be either Track 1 from the TWAT disc 1 (Rough Mixes of New Brain Drums), or Track 1 from the TWAT disc 2 (Brain Drum Remix With Snare Sample From Silkworms), less likely Track 2 from Rough Mixes 1

Chinese Stew might be Track 4 at Chinese Democracy disc, labeled 4. Guitars up 2.5 dB, Drums at Regular Level

===

The old TWAT leak from DJ Razz is hard to guess - common sense says it should be Track 2 from Rough Mixes 1, but the track length doesn't match.
Same with old Catcher leak from 2006 - we only know of one version that is on the discs, but the old leak sounds like even older version or alternate take - it's missing some additional guitar for example. It's impossible to tell which of the two Catchers come from the Village discs, until the discs leak.
IRS from DJ Razz has been made redundant because it was replaced by the exact same IRS now but with massively better quality.
Old "Checkmate" leak has first been made redundant by the original Hardschool leak, and now those two were made redundant by the more recent Hardschool ("Jackie Chan") which has slightly better quality.

The 3 "2001 leaks" reportedly also come from late 2000 or so, and TWAT has been made redundant by the last wave of leaks, because they are the exact identical track but in a little better quality.

The 3 "BBF guitar demos" also reportedly come from late 2000, but it's impossible to match them to any of the known tracks in this lot

Good job mate - any chance you can send the link so I can get the new version of the list?

I bet you didn’t think you would be so busy recently!!!!

[zombux]

On 9/8/2019 at 1:57 PM, DTJ80 said:

Good job mate - any chance you can send the link so I can get the new version of the list?

I bet you didn’t think you would be so busy recently!!!!

sure thing  

edit: link removed, sorry.

Edited June 1, 2020 by zombux

[CoBrA2168]

23 hours ago, zombux said:

yes, I can, but it's a hard job. I have some notes and my guesses, based on ID3 tags left in the leaked files - but I got informed that those might be wrong, so... the text below is just my guess and not really neccessarily close to truth  

anyway, sheet updated again and reworked at many places, reorganized for even better chronological flow, and the "1998-2001 leaks" have been temporarily placed right below the Village discs tracklists, until we have confirmed which of the tracks they match.

====

Prostitute v2 says Track 5 which likely matches Track 5 at Rough Mixes 1
Catcher says Track 2 on the same disc as IRS, which is completely wrong. it probably is in fact Track 7 from Rough Mixes 1
Silkworms only exists as Track 10 at Rough Mixes 1
IRS says Track 6, which might be the Track 6 from Rough Mixes 3
Jackie Chan/HS must be Track 7 from Rough Mixes 3

Going Down is probably Tommy Demo #2 from the Robin/Tommy demo disc, at least according to 3$P

The Blues is Track 9, which might be Track 9 from New Brain Drums CD, labeled 9. "The Blues"-Old Josh Drums, or less likely Track 9 from Rough Mixes 1
Chinese Josh is I think Track 7 from New Brain Drums CD, labeled as 7. "Chinese Democracy"-Old Josh Drums
Rhiad says Track 11 which might again be 11. "Rhiad"-Old Josh Drums from New Brain Drums CD

Prostitute v3 says Track 3, which might be 3. "Prostitute" from New Brain Drum Remixes with Axl CD

TWAT says Track 1 so it might be either Track 1 from the TWAT disc 1 (Rough Mixes of New Brain Drums), or Track 1 from the TWAT disc 2 (Brain Drum Remix With Snare Sample From Silkworms), less likely Track 2 from Rough Mixes 1

Chinese Stew might be Track 4 at Chinese Democracy disc, labeled 4. Guitars up 2.5 dB, Drums at Regular Level

===

The old TWAT leak from DJ Razz is hard to guess - common sense says it should be Track 2 from Rough Mixes 1, but the track length doesn't match.
Same with old Catcher leak from 2006 - we only know of one version that is on the discs, but the old leak sounds like even older version or alternate take - it's missing some additional guitar for example. It's impossible to tell which of the two Catchers come from the Village discs, until the discs leak.
IRS from DJ Razz has been made redundant because it was replaced by the exact same IRS now but with massively better quality.
Old "Checkmate" leak has first been made redundant by the original Hardschool leak, and now those two were made redundant by the more recent Hardschool ("Jackie Chan") which has slightly better quality.

The 3 "2001 leaks" reportedly also come from late 2000 or so, and TWAT has been made redundant by the last wave of leaks, because they are the exact identical track but in a little better quality.

The 3 "BBF guitar demos" also reportedly come from late 2000, but it's impossible to match them to any of the known tracks in this lot

This is fantastic - thank you for putting this together and being so detailed.  Helps me remember what has happened, especially in the 2000s.

[Voodoochild]

On 07/09/2019 at 11:31 AM, zombux said:

Chinese Josh is I think Track 7 from New Brain Drums CD, labeled as 7. "Chinese Democracy"-Old Josh Drums

Chinese Stew might be Track 4 at Chinese Democracy disc, labeled 4. Guitars up 2.5 dB, Drums at Regular Levelnown tracks in this lot

Its interesting how Chinese sounds already different from the Vegas and RIR version -  both those mixes are from June and September 2001. Robin's intro tone is way more processed, which is how we heard in the 2002 shows and the NA Tour radio promo. 

It's interesting to note how between the European and NA Tour in 2002, they reworked some more on Chinese and The Blues. Bucket added his solo in Chinese, and Richard added his outro solo in The Blues (which can be heard in the NA Tour radio promo and was later replaced by Bucket's lead).

 

[zombux]

2 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

Its interesting how Chinese sounds already different from the Vegas and RIR version -  both those mixes are from June and September 2001. Robin's intro tone is way more processed, which is how we heard in the 2002 shows and the NA Tour radio promo. 

It's interesting to note how between the European and NA Tour in 2002, they reworked some more on Chinese and The Blues. Bucket added his solo in Chinese, and Richard added his outro solo in The Blues (which can be heard in the NA Tour radio promo and was later replaced by Bucket's lead).

 

yep, I also noticed that the intro guitar riff is very similar to the Boston/Albany 2002 radio promo - not the very first opening riff but the second one which repeats a few seconds after the first one. very very similar riff - maybe just unprocessed (?)

too bad we have zero footage from the two december 01 Vegas shows, it would be interesting to see the progress... oh well.