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Guns N' Roses & related STUDIO SESSIONS - a definitive collection of available info (?)


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1 hour ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

-> you have no way of knowing the complete list of songs recorded at Mates.  Yes, we all know there's a tape being hoarded that has additional songs (like the 2 you mentioned), but that doesn't mean that there weren't any others recorded.

Jeez, I never stated I know a complete list, I just know those two songs were played. Figured this might be added since uncirculated stuff is listed.

1 hour ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

-> you have no way of knowing how many takes they did of any of those songs.  neither do we.  it's not because they weren't preserved on the reels, or weren't written on the track sheets, that they didn't attempt multiple takes of several songs.  they just kept the ones that were worth keeping.  I agree though that 'out ta get me' [take 2] should not be listed in this overview, because there's no second take left on the reels, so it's irrelevant.

The song was listed on the reel just once without specifying take like on the others. I haven't found any evidence of other take existed. Pretty sure this thing spread form here where "(take 1)" was added for unknown reason. BTW I wonder who provided full Sound City list in the first place.

1 hour ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

-> please provide proof for your opinion (!) on 'nice boys' and 'heartbreak hotel' ?  'nice boys' was (unofficially) released on the 'many face of GNR' compilation (and others), and 'heartbreak hotel' was released (only) on the 'hollywood rocks' 3LP compilation (all through Cleopatra/Deadline or their affiliates), but NO info whatsoever was included about when and where they were recorded.  they were just ASSUMED to be from Sound City.  I've a/b'ed them thoroughly though, they sound EXACTLY like the other Pasha takes, and they sound NOTHING like the other Sound City takes.  I'm sure you're aware that stereo fields can be switched easily, so that's no valid argument.  I obviously cannot be 100% sure (just like you can't), but I can only use my ears and common sense ...

Same, I just used my ears and common sence. What made you think this is Pasha? I've listened to those many times and they sound exactly like Sound City and nothing like Pasha. Points to back up my suggestion:
* Both tracks have a faster tempo similar to Sound City rather than slower Pasha takes
* Songs that start from guitar were counted off by Izzy at Pasha (Move To The City, Mama Kin, Heartbreak Hotel, Shadow of Your Love, Don't Cry, etc). Heartbreak Hotel from "Hollywood Rocks!" was counted off by Steven
* Pasha tracks had background vocals on them, Sound City tracks hadn't. Both tracks lack background vocals.
* And Izzy/Slash swap, yes. Sure, channels swap is possible but I doubt they would do that just for these two tracks of all the session.

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8 minutes ago, Sergeanur said:

Jeez, I never stated I know a complete list, I just know those two songs were played. Figured this might be added since uncirculated stuff is listed.

The song was listed on the reel just once without specifying take like on the others. I haven't found any evidence of other take existed. Pretty sure this thing spread form here where "(take 1)" was added for unknown reason. BTW I wonder who provided full Sound City list in the first place.

Same, I just used my ears and common sence. What made you think this is Pasha? I've listened to those many times and they sound exactly like Sound City and nothing like Pasha. Points to back up my suggestion:
* Both tracks have a faster tempo similar to Sound City rather than slower Pasha takes
* Songs that start from guitar were counted off by Izzy at Pasha (Move To The City, Mama Kin, Heartbreak Hotel, Shadow of Your Love, Don't Cry, etc). Heartbreak Hotel from "Hollywood Rocks!" was counted off by Steven
* Pasha tracks had background vocals on them, Sound City tracks hadn't. Both tracks lack background vocals.
* And Izzy/Slash swap, yes. Sure, channels swap is possible but I doubt they would do that just for these two tracks of all the session.

I think we agree on the first two points.  I didn't mean any disrespect.

I will 'investigate' further on Pasha/Sound City ! :shrugs:

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1 hour ago, zombux said:

***THE TABLE HAS BEEN UPDATED***

I added some historical tidbits for better guessing when certain events happened, and I've started to adding known rehearsals as those help in guessing the time as well! :) 

Awesome!

Only in Also recorded during UYI sessions (because Izzy is there on guitar) it's Down On The Farm, not New Rose.

I found the 1991 interview about You Can’t Put Your Arms Around a Memory:

The addition of Sorum freed up the band so much that inspiration started flowing - that’s why Use Your Illusion is two volumes. And why Duff is making a solo album.
"I got Lenny Kravitz, he’s singing one song. And Sebastian from Skid Row, he’s going to sing on another song. Slash is putting some leads on here and there. And Prince, hopefully he wants to do it. He’s like an inspiration to me as far as songwriting goes, big time. It’s turning out pretty cool. I’ve got eight tracks done, all my tunes."
One song, Johnny Thunders’ "You Can’t Put Your Arms Around a Memory," is dedicated to Thunders himself; the New York Dolls singer/guitarist who died earlier this year. Duff extends the dedication to Andy Wood of Mother Love Bone.

http://www.a-4-d.com/t599-1991-11-dd-interview-with-duff

Also this:

While here [Seattle] next week, McKagan will spend a day recording a song dedicated to Wood at a local studio, working with local musicians. It's for a solo album he hopes to release later this year. Lenny Kravitz and Sebastian Bach have already recorded tunes with him, and he's asked Prince to join him in L.A. in two weeks to complete the project.

http://www.a-4-d.com/t2467-1991-07-12-interview-with-duff-in-the-seattle-times

I don't have the Believe In Me booklet. Is there a dedication to Andy Wood? The first quote says that You Can't Put... would be additionally dedicated to him apart from Johnny Thunders, but there's no dedication to Andy Wood on TSI liner notes.

If the song in the second quote is You Can't Put... it means that it was recorded in Triad Studios, Redmond, WA between 14-17 of July 1991 (the studio is listed in TSI too).

 

Edited by Blackstar
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1 minute ago, zombux said:

nice! I'll update that.

Believe In Me booklet is here in many instances: https://www.discogs.com/Duff-McKagan-Believe-In-Me/master/207798

Thanks! It doesn't have the inner sleeves though where the credits, dedications etc. must be.

---------

Rehearsals:

There are also the sessions with Zakk Wylde and all the band in January 1995 (probably the 2nd-3rd week)

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16 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

There are also the sessions with Zakk Wylde and all the band in January 1995 (probably the 2nd-3rd week)

the rehearsals are a mess. it seems that there were the June 1996 rehearsal of "Shadow Company" (that "folky nonsense" thing) and then in August the official lineup got together (the "next Jackie Chan movie" thing). bizzarre!

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2 minutes ago, zombux said:

I wasn't able to obtain that (yet?). but it definitely exists. https://www.discogs.com/composition/7d5613a7-4735-4856-997d-6ce0a68007c9-Love-Theme-From-The-Godfather

(released only in 2002? weird)

it must be this video. all these years i thought this is from a fan and not real.. but the time said is real

 

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4 minutes ago, smiley said:

zombux - can you add a date/time stamp on the first line? that would be a good way to keep a version number. anytime you update the list, update that to make it easier for the rest of us to track changes please?

good idea. I'll try introducing it in the next change ;)

I also got another tip how to improve the thing - there's the "best bootleg" column, but it's not really the most fortunate thing... sometime in the future, I'll probably also include a "first bootleg" column, and try tracking the first available recording of the thing, where available :) 

edit: hmm well, the timestamp... it will have to be in GMT/UTC, otherwise we'll get lost in the timezones shit quickly! :)

Edited by zombux
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2 hours ago, zombux said:

good idea. I'll try introducing it in the next change ;)

I also got another tip how to improve the thing - there's the "best bootleg" column, but it's not really the most fortunate thing... sometime in the future, I'll probably also include a "first bootleg" column, and try tracking the first available recording of the thing, where available :) 

edit: hmm well, the timestamp... it will have to be in GMT/UTC, otherwise we'll get lost in the timezones shit quickly! :)

or just date... we don't need up to the minute version updates ;)

 

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15 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Only in Also recorded during UYI sessions (because Izzy is there on guitar) it's Down On The Farm, not New Rose.

Like I said earlier in this thread :

- Recorded DURING the main UYI sessions (basic tracks august/sept '90) :

'Attitude' + 'I Don't Care About You' + 'New Rose' + 'Black Leather' (all available in rough mix form WITH izzy on guitar) + 'Ain't It Fun'  + 'Down On The Farm'

- Recorded AFTER the main UYI sessions (during and after the tour) :

Since I Don't Have You' + 'Human Being' + 'Hair Of The Dog' + 'Raw Power' + 'Buick Makane' + 'Down On The Street' [instrumental] + 'Beer And A Cigarette' [instrumental]  (confirmed by Mike Monroe)

This is all 100% confirmed info.

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39 minutes ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

Like I said earlier in this thread :

- Recorded DURING the main UYI sessions (basic tracks august/sept '90) :

'Attitude' + 'I Don't Care About You' + 'New Rose' + 'Black Leather' (all available in rough mix form WITH izzy on guitar) + 'Ain't It Fun'  + 'Down On The Farm'

- Recorded AFTER the main UYI sessions (during and after the tour) :

Since I Don't Have You' + 'Human Being' + 'Hair Of The Dog' + 'Raw Power' + 'Buick Makane' + 'Down On The Street' [instrumental] + 'Beer And A Cigarette' [instrumental]  (confirmed by Mike Monroe)

This is all 100% confirmed info.

I'm reluctant to write the whole list of UYI and TSI songs in the table, because I'm not sure about the UYI tapes. 

there is the Ruffs tape, the Q-sound tape and the Axl's Advance Copy thing. which of those song should I consider a demo take and which ones (if any) are album takes?

because I think that if some of those tracks are already album takes, I'd just leave them as they are in the list, only noted that they were later released on the album.

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3 hours ago, zombux said:

I'm reluctant to write the whole list of UYI and TSI songs in the table, because I'm not sure about the UYI tapes. 

there is the Ruffs tape, the Q-sound tape and the Axl's Advance Copy thing. which of those song should I consider a demo take and which ones (if any) are album takes?

because I think that if some of those tracks are already album takes, I'd just leave them as they are in the list, only noted that they were later released on the album.

All of those are 'album takes' (except for '14 Years' and 'You Ain't The First', those are alt. takes).

The only difference with the actual released product, is that they are either instrumental rough mixes (Ruffs DAT source ), Q-sound mixes (Q-sound DAT source) or plain rough mixes (Axl Advance Copy tape source).  Please note that 'Pretty Tied Up' from the Q-sound DAT source is the album take with an extended outro with no fade-out.  Also note that the TSI tracks on the Ruff DAT source feature Izzy's guitar instead of Gilby's, other than that they are the same takes as the released versions.

I forgot to add : on 'Axl's Advance Copy' -> 'Get In The Ring' is an instrumental album take, and 'Don't Damn Me' is an alt. vocal take, backing track is the same.  'Ain't Goin' Down' is of course only released on the pinball machine.

Edited by Nikki_Sixx
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10 minutes ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

Q-sound mixes (Q-sound DAT source)

still there are "regular versions" on that tape. so that already makes 3 sources of the stuff that's all "album takes" (I don't count the versions with Q-sound, it's in the end the very same as the "regular versions" from the same tape). 

huh, now I'd like to tell which of those ended up on the album in the end. one of those takes per each song? every of them? of course not counting the alternate takes.

this is a real mess :)

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1 minute ago, zombux said:

still there are "regular versions" on that tape. so that already makes 3 sources of the stuff that's all "album takes" (I don't count the versions with Q-sound, it's in the end the very same as the "regular versions" from the same tape). 

huh, now I'd like to tell which of those ended up on the album in the end. one of those takes per each song? every of them? of course not counting the alternate takes.

this is a real mess :)

Correct, that DAT tape features 2 versions for each of the songs, but they are exactly the same tracks, just mixed with different techniques.  The DAT was created to let the studio people choose which mixing technique worked best, in the end they chose not to use Q-sound). WE cannot hear the difference between the rough mixes and the Q-sound mixed, because you need to have a specific speaker setup to hear it properly.

To answer your second question, ALL of those ended up on the album (except for the alt. takes), but in finished form.  All the tracks we talked about on all those different tapes/bootlegs are always the same as the released product, but in un-finished form. 

I hope that explains it ? ;)

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Very interesting thread. A lot of research clearly went into organising all this info and it'll surely be helpful for people searching for said info. Well done and I look forward to reading the discussion as stuff is added. 

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OK. I've updated the table again. this time, I've also included the first available bootleg together with the best sounding one. it's not completed yet, others will come soon.

also included are some exact times of ChiDem leaks.

work in progress, as usually :)

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5 hours ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

Like I said earlier in this thread :

- Recorded DURING the main UYI sessions (basic tracks august/sept '90) :

'Attitude' + 'I Don't Care About You' + 'New Rose' + 'Black Leather' (all available in rough mix form WITH izzy on guitar) + 'Ain't It Fun'  + 'Down On The Farm'

- Recorded AFTER the main UYI sessions (during and after the tour) :

Since I Don't Have You' + 'Human Being' + 'Hair Of The Dog' + 'Raw Power' + 'Buick Makane' + 'Down On The Street' [instrumental] + 'Beer And A Cigarette' [instrumental]  (confirmed by Mike Monroe)

This is all 100% confirmed info.

It seems that you think it's impossible that someone else might know as much as you do, or at least some of the things you know :lol:

My posts were in relation to @zombux's chart only, not in general. The chart lists the sessions and rehearsals in chronological order based on the available information.

It already had the Spaghetti Incident demos that were recorded during the UYI sessions and were bootlegged, so I didn't have to repeat those. I just added the two that weren't bootlegged, Down On The Farm and Ain't It Fun. And I tried to help with some more details about when the other, non UYI, TSI tracks (not bootlegged) were recorded based on the interviews I've read. That's all.

When zombux updated the chart he put New Rose on the missing tracks instead of Down On The Farm and I pointed that out.

Edited by Blackstar
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17 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I know all that. It seems that you think it's impossible that someone else might know as much as you do, or at least some of the things you know :lol:

 

Ok, it was a misunderstanding then, I apologize if I offended you.

I only know what is common knowledge, what everyone else knows.  I have no' secret illuminati-style GNR information', and if I did, I would share it right away.

A lot of times, people share incomplete/incorrect information (that can easily be fact-checked), and I was just trying to avoid that, that's all.

Edit: Also, remember we are on the internet, it's not always easy to read someone's 'vibe' when you're not talking face to face ... :shrugs:

Edited by Nikki_Sixx
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