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Terminator - Dark Fate


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12 minutes ago, downzy said:

No, you're allowed, but I think it's time both you and I set aside the argument of whether the film pushes a SJW agenda since you haven't seen it and have no context to comment on that fact.

For comparisons sake, if someone came into a discussion saying that Chinese Democracy sucked but also admitted they hadn't heard it, the mod team would like shut down that poster since it doesn't serve the discussion and the poster's intention violated the rules of openly trolling.  Not saying that's exactly what you're doing here, but it's not far off.  

the analogy with chinese democracy is an interesting one.

on that album, slash does not play while many see him as an essential part of guns n roses.

the fact that he does not play, can be known even without listening to the album.

with dark fate, the fact that arnold has a small role can also be known without watching the movie.

My biggest gripe with the movie is, that arnold has a small role. My accusations of SJW politics are only part of the problem. I see it as the "reason" why he has a small role, but that he has a small role can not be disputed and is basically what my argument is built around

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8 hours ago, action said:

If you're going to call your movie "the terminator" in the title, then by nature, arnie should have the absolute lead role

So by that logic they should have stopped making James Bond films after Sean Connery stopped playing the title role (or maybe we should go back to James Lazerby on that one)

Mad Max Fury Road was a mistake in your eyes because Mel Gibson wasn't playing Max.

No more Star Trek films because we can't have other actors playing Captain Kirk or Spock.

People should not watch Season 3 of the Crown because they have a different actress playing the Queen

They shouldn't have made the Hunt for Red October because Jack Ryan wasn't played by Harrison Ford

Silence of the Lambs should not have been made because Hannible Lector was originally played by Brian Cox, not Anthony Hopkins

 

 

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23 minutes ago, action said:

My biggest gripe with the movie is, that arnold has a small role. My accusations of SJW politics are only part of the problem.

The first part is fine.  I think most people understand that having a 72 year old Schwarzenegger carry an entire Terminator film at this point is pretty ludicrous.  It's also limiting somewhat since this new film explores new concepts of enhanced humans and the messy bridge between man and machine.  Some people have complained that it's too much like Terminator 2, but I think there's enough new elements to make it as fresh as this franchise is going to get at this point.  

Your accusations of SJW politics is nonsense since you haven't seen the film and hence don't know what you're talking about.  

23 minutes ago, action said:

the analogy with chinese democracy is an interesting one.

on that album, slash does not play while many see him as an essential part of guns n roses.

the fact that he does not play, can be known even without listening to the album.

with dark fate, the fact that arnold has a small role can also be known without watching the movie.

If someone wanted to say that the album wasn't a Guns N' Roses album because it lacked Slash, then that's a valid point.  But it's still not a comment on the art itself.  It's a worthless opinion since they haven't listened to the album and shouldn't pollute the discussion amongst people looking to have a genuine and informed conversation on the songs themselves.  

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23 minutes ago, downzy said:

So by that logic they should have stopped making James Bond films after Sean Connery stopped playing the title role (or maybe we should go back to James Lazerby on that one)

Mad Max Fury Road was a mistake in your eyes because Mel Gibson wasn't playing Max.

No more Star Trek films because we can't have other actors playing Captain Kirk or Spock.

People should not watch Season 3 of the Crown because they have a different actress playing the Queen

They shouldn't have made the Hunt for Red October because Jack Ryan wasn't played by Harrison Ford

Silence of the Lambs should not have been made because Hannible Lector was originally played by Brian Cox, not Anthony Hopkins

 

 

it's different with the terminator.

arnold is so associated with that role, when he run for governor of california they even called him "governator".

when people refer to "the terminator", they usually refer to arnold. "that guy looks like the terminator" they say, when they point to someone looking like schwarzenegger.

the terminator/ schwarzenegger image has become part of pop culture, to such extreme levels that you can't afford making a terminator movie without granting arnold the lead role.

I don't intend to troll here, it's just how I view arnold's career as a fan or himself first and foremost.

if Axl changed to being a backup singer for guns n roses, imagine the outrage that would ensue

20 minutes ago, downzy said:

The first part is fine.  I think most people understand that having a 72 year old Schwarzenegger carry an entire Terminator film at this point is pretty ludicrous.  It's also limiting somewhat since this new film explores new concepts of enhanced humans and the messy bridge between man and machine.  Some people have complained that it's too much like Terminator 2, but I think there's enough new elements to make it as fresh as this franchise is going to get at this point.  

Your accusations of SJW politics is nonsense since you haven't seen the film and hence don't know what you're talking about.  

If someone wanted to say that the album wasn't a Guns N' Roses album because it lacked Slash, then that's a valid point.  But it's still not a comment on the art itself.  It's a worthless opinion since they haven't listened to the album and shouldn't pollute the discussion amongst people looking to have a genuine and informed conversation on the songs themselves.  

true true. but when watching a terminator movie I'm only in for arnold, not for other artistic reasons like story or deeper message.

I have a very basic interest when it comes to movies. I admit, I'm a bit of an extremist here, but I'm just a fan of arnold. It just disapoints me when he's put to the side of the stage. That don't feel right to me.

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18 minutes ago, action said:

it's different with the terminator.

The same could have been said about Jack Ryan, James Bond, James T. Kirk, Spock, Spiderman, Mad Max at one point in time.  Things change.  You're potentially missing some great films or cinematic moments if you're not open to the possibility of another actor playing that role.

The same was also said about the Joker many times.  Few thought anyone should have played the character after Jack Nicholson in the '89 film.  Then Heath Ledger won an Oscar for his take on the role.  Now there's talk of Joaquin Pheonix winning an Oscar for the same role with a completely different take.  

It's a shame you can't expand your horizons as to what a Terminator film can be.  Save for the first film, I've seen every Terminator film in theatres.  That should give you an indication of how old I am and how the Terminator franchise was significant in my memories of going to the theatres in my formative years.  Hell, I think I bought Terminator 2 on DVD three times because of different packaging and bonus features.  

At the end of the day it's nothing more than a film.  They shouldn't be that important to anyone other than those who had a hand in making them.  For me, my life isn't significant because of the movies I watch or the music I listen to.  But maybe that's just me.  

 

 

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Some of the stuff that has come out of the discussion of this film has been far more interesting than the actual movie of Dark Fate.

I've been kind of obsessed with charting where and how this film went so terribly wrong - it's quite a public embarrassment for a number of people.

 

One of the things that's been so fascinating to me is to hear what James Cameron fought for and wanted - because he is the crucial ingredient in all this. I watched this video this morning and I'm pretty stunned: The director talks about how Cameron was so into Arnold's character that he began writing things that were beyond absurd

- Exhibit number one: James Cameron was adamant that the audience understand that Arnold's character - as a perfect cyborg - has working DNA and can impregnate a woman. Thus, producing a son, which the character of the T-800 has. 

Watch

 

 

Can. you. imagine....

Cameron went crazy on this film. He got so wrapped up in "new" concepts that he totally dropped the ball on telling a worthwhile Terminator film. The little anecdote about having to fight over whether Arnold's robot cock can fire live ammunition...my goodness. It's too good not to meme

3fvrbt.jpg

 

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I didn't think it was a SJW flick, except for them killing THAT character just to put  a latina girl, that was forced and I am latino and why it is always mexicans? Just because they live closer to the US? Do Hollywood know there's way more to Latin America than Mexico?

The movie is bad because it is a retcon. Retcons suck: spider man being a clone, guy gardner being an alien, the new 52 (some of it was good tho), Terminator Genisys, Gwen stacy cheating on Peter  with Norman, Halloween H20, Palpatine being alive, Midichlorians, Alien 3, Wolverine is not a mutant, he's a Lupine and the worst of all, Spider man selling his marriage to the devil, which gave us glorious story arcs like having Harry Osbourne's Girl cheat him with Norman (he again, the rascal).

Also, what's up with the actors? Why are they so ugly? Linda and Arnie are old, ok, but Davies is ugly and that bowl cut made her even uglier, Natalia is also ugly and looks like a child, maybe it was some hollywood pedo's idea? 

 

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40 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Just because they live closer to the US? Do Hollywood know there's way more to Latin America than Mexico

I think proximity to the US was likely one factor.  Another issue brought up by having the movie begin in Mexico is automation, and how many of the workers in Mexico are likely to be replaced by machines in the coming years.  I thought it was an interesting attempt to connect a contemporary issue that relates to the overall theme of robots replacing machines.  

 

40 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

The movie is bad because it is a retcon

I don't agree.  I think had this movie came out before T3 and the other two movies it would have felt more seamless and logical.  

 

It made complete sense that the robots would send back more than one terminator to kill John Connor.  Why not when they make a thousand of those things in the future.  It was something myself and likely many others never really considered.

37 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Also, what's up with the actors? Why are they so ugly? Linda and Arnie are old, ok, but Davies is ugly and that bowl cut made her even uglier, Natalia is also ugly and looks like a child, maybe it was some hollywood pedo's idea?

I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you there.  If you're distracted by the actors looks then I'm not sure what to tell you.  It doesn't really bother me that all actors in a movie aren't strikingly good looking.  Personally, I didn't find Grace nor Dani ugly one bit.  I guess different standards there.  

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On 8/11/2019 at 3:03 PM, action said:

it's different with the terminator.

 In Salvation Arnie just made a cameo. Be happy that this time around he got a small role :lol:

I won't comment on Genisys because I didn't understand a thing about what went on there :wacko:

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Just a fun little promo interview with Hamilton and Arnie. On Jollys Korean channel. I guess ever since Arnie gave Greta an electric car he too can go give the 'woke, millennial, beta-male' interviews. He does roast them a bit though :lol:

(interviews in english and starts at 0:30)

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1 hour ago, downzy said:

I think proximity to the US was likely one factor.  Another issue brought up by having the movie begin in Mexico is automation, and how many of the workers in Mexico are likely to be replaced by machines in the coming years.  I thought it was an interesting attempt to connect a contemporary issue that relates to the overall theme of robots replacing machines.  

 

I don't agree.  I think had this movie came out before T3 and the other two movies it would have felt more seamless and logical.  

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It made complete sense that the robots would send back more than one terminator to kill John Connor.  Why not when they make a thousand of those things in the future.  It was something myself and likely many others never really considered.

I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you there.  If you're distracted by the actors looks then I'm not sure what to tell you.  It doesn't really bother me that all actors in a movie aren't strikingly good looking.  Personally, I didn't find Grace nor Dani ugly one bit.  I guess different standards there.  

Yeah, mexico and a lot of other countries included. Machines taking our place is happening all over the world. I'm dealing with automated cashiers rather than real humans for some years now, even in brazilian small towns so not a good point really.

The whole skynet sending terminators don't make sense after T2 and why only Arnie turned out good? What were the other terminators gonna do once they discovered their objective was already completed? That was the biggest plot hole overall. Arnie's character should not even exist.

Having beautiful people to advertise a product has been proven to be a very effective startegy. Of course, you can be ugly if you have talent, like Joaquin in Joker, that movie made like a billion while Dark fate failed bad.

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1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

The whole skynet sending terminators don't make sense after T2 and why only Arnie turned out good? What were the other terminators gonna do once they discovered their objective was already completed?

I suppose at this point we don't need to use spoiler tags since the film has been out for over a week or two (depending where you live).

SPOILER ALERT FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN THE FILM

I believe Skynet sent back several Terminators before Sarah, John, and the good Terminator changed the course of events in Terminator 2.  It wasn't just the T-1000, they seemed to have sent several evil T-800s back as well I suppose as a back up plan. 

The Terminators sent back after the events of T2 were from what we can only assume was something else, perhaps Legion.  The whole argument of the storyline is that the rise of AI and Terminators are inevitable.  Shut down Skynet and humans will find another way to fuck things up.  

I think the Arnold terminator that killed John turned out as he did because his mission was completed.  Other Terminators were either killed by Sarah or had different missions because they weren't sent back by Skynet.  

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

Having beautiful people to advertise a product has been proven to be a very effective startegy. Of course, you can be ugly if you have talent, like Joaquin in Joker, that movie made like a billion while Dark fate failed bad.

If I had to list the top 50 reasons why this movie didn't do well commercially, the attractiveness of the actors would be number 50.  Avatar is one of the highest grossing films of all time.  Did you find the blue people attractive?  I wouldn't say the kids in the Harry Potter films (hell, any of the actors really) score well in the looks department yet they are some of the highest grossing films of all time.  

Franchise fatigue after being dragged through the mud that last three films and television show, plus a really old Arnold, likely played a bigger role in why the movie didn't do well.  No one really needs to see this film in the same way that T2 was an event.  

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the one positive point in this movie is arnold. He may be old, but he looked pretty badass nonetheless.

In fact, the (small) role of arnold is the only thing in this movie that makes me care, at all. I just fucking love arnold, and so do many other people. He's a fucking inspiration, an icon, a legend. He's the embodiment of determination and talent. remove arnold, and you've got just an empty shell left as far as I'm concerned.

part of me wants to view the movie, out of curiosity in arnold's role in this, but a huge part of me doesn't want to be disapointed by his lack of screentime.

you know what's worse than no more terminator movies? terminator movies that give arnold limited screentime.

Arnold is getting old, but so are we. So what? So is guns n roses, the stones, black sabbath.... People still pay good money to view these old people, in fact in many cases they sell bigger tours than ever.

 

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46 minutes ago, downzy said:

I suppose at this point we don't need to use spoiler tags since the film has been out for over a week or two (depending where you live).

SPOILER ALERT FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN THE FILM

I believe Skynet sent back several Terminators before Sarah, John, and the good Terminator changed the course of events in Terminator 2.  It wasn't just the T-1000, they seemed to have sent several evil T-800s back as well I suppose as a back up plan. 

The Terminators sent back after the events of T2 were from what we can only assume was something else, perhaps Legion.  The whole argument of the storyline is that the rise of AI and Terminators are inevitable.  Shut down Skynet and humans will find another way to fuck things up.  

I think the Arnold terminator that killed John turned out as he did because his mission was completed.  Other Terminators were either killed by Sarah or had different missions because they weren't sent back by Skynet.  

If I had to list the top 50 reasons why this movie didn't do well commercially, the attractiveness of the actors would be number 50.  Avatar is one of the highest grossing films of all time.  Did you find the blue people attractive?  I wouldn't say the kids in the Harry Potter films (hell, any of the actors really) score well in the looks department yet they are some of the highest grossing films of all time.  

Franchise fatigue after being dragged through the mud that last three films and television show, plus a really old Arnold, likely played a bigger role in why the movie didn't do well.  No one really needs to see this film in the same way that T2 was an event.  

From what I get it was skynet that sent those 6 terminators to the past, to an age where John and Sarah would be, in principle, vulnerable. This happened because Skynet didn't have exact data about them, since most was lost during the bombing. It was never stated that legion sent them, but Carl, a Skynet T800 sent Sarah messages with the coordinates for the other terminators, which, I suppose means they were all part of a cadre sent to kill JC for Skynet. Which makes no sense since:

A) Skynet is no more how the hell are its creations still roaming?

B) Why would Skynet send terminators to a period where the bombing already ocurred? He wouldn't be able to do this correction because he was already wiped out by T2's events.

C) If it was legion, why would he build T800's? Why target John? He's not even the messiah anymore. Should've sent them after Dani instead.

 

They were blue but their facial features were mostly intact and they were all attractive people Zoe and Sam are very good looking. Even the evil sarge guy was good looking.

Harry Potter was a kid's movie, they had to get child actors for the kids to indentify themselves with. As the series went on and their public grew older, they also introduced manu attractive actors such as Gary Oldman, Robert Patinson, the girl who played Cho, The girl who played Fleur, the guy who played Krum, the guy who played the elder weasley that married Krum and they could not just ditch the trio that played the leading characters. Same goes for the fantastic animals trilogy, all good looking people, even if the movies were mostly crap.

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13 minutes ago, soon said:

 

Correction: These ladies are sexy af. 

But like this talking point even - WTF on so many levels :lol:

is there a reason they look like.... (insert sexist white male conservative derogatory term here) in the movie then?

 

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1 hour ago, action said:

is there a reason they look like.... (insert sexist white male conservative derogatory term here) in the movie then?

 

I cannot account for your tastes. But if you mean 'why do the characters they portray in the movie look different then these photos of the real life actresses?' then its because thats what movies are - they are thespians.

But who knows what you might think if you saw the movie? :P

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27 minutes ago, soon said:

I cannot account for your tastes. But if you mean 'why do the characters they portray in the movie look different then these photos of the real life actresses?' then its because thats what movies are - they are thespians.

But who knows what you might think if you saw the movie? :P

If that's confusing him then he's going to get one hell of a shock when he realises that Arnold isn't really a super ninja death robot from the future. :lol: 

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2 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

From what I get it was skynet that sent those 6 terminators to the past, to an age where John and Sarah would be, in principle, vulnerable. This happened because Skynet didn't have exact data about them, since most was lost during the bombing. It was never stated that legion sent them, but Carl, a Skynet T800 sent Sarah messages with the coordinates for the other terminators, which, I suppose means they were all part of a cadre sent to kill JC for Skynet. Which makes no sense since:

A) Skynet is no more how the hell are its creations still roaming?

B) Why would Skynet send terminators to a period where the bombing already ocurred? He wouldn't be able to do this correction because he was already wiped out by T2's events.

C) If it was legion, why would he build T800's? Why target John? He's not even the messiah anymore. Should've sent them after Dani instead.

Sorry, I'm not seeing the plot hole.

Skynet sent multiple Terminators to kill John to various points in time before its erasure.  

Perhaps they sent Terminators post 1997 with the consideration that the Terminator sent back in 1991 failed (which makes sense since the first Terminator failed in T1).  Perhaps others were sent around the planet earlier and it took them awhile to track John down.  And also, perhaps Terminators sent back after John's death (the ones destroyed by Sarah) were sent by Legion and not Skynet.  

Any of these scenarios would explain why Terminators continue to arrive post 1997.  

"Carl" also seems to be able to detect when and where Terminators sent from Legion.  Sarah was notified of the arrival of the Rev-9 Terminator's, which is from Legion's time, by Carl.  The Rev-9 is known to Grace, who is only familiar with Legion and not Skynet.  Hence it's probable Legion became the entity that was sending Terminators back at some point instead of Skynet.  

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1 hour ago, downzy said:

Sorry, I'm not seeing the plot hole.

Skynet sent multiple Terminators to kill John to various points in time before its erasure.  

Perhaps they sent Terminators post 1997 with the consideration that the Terminator sent back in 1991 failed (which makes sense since the first Terminator failed in T1).  Perhaps others were sent around the planet earlier and it took them awhile to track John down.  And also, perhaps Terminators sent back after John's death (the ones destroyed by Sarah) were sent by Legion and not Skynet.  

Any of these scenarios would explain why Terminators continue to arrive post 1997.  

"Carl" also seems to be able to detect when and where Terminators sent from Legion.  Sarah was notified of the arrival of the Rev-9 Terminator's, which is from Legion's time, by Carl.  The Rev-9 is known to Grace, who is only familiar with Legion and not Skynet.  Hence it's probable Legion became the entity that was sending Terminators back at some point instead of Skynet.  

How is it not a plot hole?  How come robots can go back to the past thx to a future computer that doesn't exist anymore? How would Skynet send anything after "aknowledging" his failure in T2 if he would be erased by the? Why would legion send a T800 after JC if he's not its nemesis?

The movie implies that Carl, the original T800, T1000 and the other terminator Sarah hunted were sent by Skynet, hence Carl had their deployment dates stored in his data, which also doesn't make sense since the future that created him is no more. Even if we ignore it and say he can exist because he was sent with the other T800's "before" T2 happened, why would skynet send him and the others to a date PAST judgement day? It wouldn't change anything at this point. Jc wouldn't be vulnerable anymore and he would be already erased.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

How is it not a plot hole?  How come robots can go back to the past thx to a future computer that doesn't exist anymore? How would Skynet send anything after "aknowledging" his failure in T2 if he would be erased by the? Why would legion send a T800 after JC if he's not its nemesis?

Because the Terminators were sent out prior to Skynet being erased.  Otherwise the Terminators in T2 wouldn't have arrived either.  

Let's go over this again. 

Skynet existed in the future and sent back the T-1000 and the good T-800 for Terminator 2.  Sarah Conor in the new film says that before they changed the future, Skynet sent more Terminators.  Who knows exactly when this took place, but it was either at the same time it sent the T-1000 back or even before.  They show up later because that's when they're sent.  It doesn't matter that Skynet no longer exists since they depart at a time when Skynet does exist and arrive in a year where the future is changed as a result of T2.  Assume Carl does show up in 1998 in Guatemala some how (though he might have shown up earlier and needed time to track John down).  He's still from a future that existed before the events of T2 changed things.  

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

The movie implies that Carl, the original T800, T1000 and the other terminator Sarah hunted were sent by Skynet, hence Carl had their deployment dates stored in his data, which also doesn't make sense since the future that created him is no more

Carl, the good T800 that was in T2, and the T1000 were all sent from a future when Skynet existed before the events of T2 occurred. This is why Carl had their deploy dates in his data; they were either sent before he was sent or at the same time.  It's just they were sent to different years.  One area I'm a little confused about whether he actually had their deploy dates and locations or whether he can detect the arrival of Terminators from the future.  I'm guessing the latter since he was able to detect the Rev-9, a Terminator that isn't from Carl's future.  

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

why would skynet send him and the others to a date PAST judgement day?

Why not?  Wouldn't Skynet have learned as a result of the failure from the first Terminator film that Terminators may not succeed and as a result things might change?  Even if it assumes that Judgement Day does actually happen, wouldn't John still be Skynet's most wanted and might be vulnerable soon after judgement day?  Obviously John survives judgement day since he leads the resistance.  What difference does it make if they send Terminators back before or after the judgement day known to Skynet at the time they sent the Terminators back?

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6 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

From what I get it was skynet that sent those 6 terminators to the past, to an age where John and Sarah would be, in principle, vulnerable. This happened because Skynet didn't have exact data about them, since most was lost during the bombing. It was never stated that legion sent them, but Carl, a Skynet T800 sent Sarah messages with the coordinates for the other terminators, which, I suppose means they were all part of a cadre sent to kill JC for Skynet. Which makes no sense since:

A) Skynet is no more how the hell are its creations still roaming?

B) Why would Skynet send terminators to a period where the bombing already ocurred? He wouldn't be able to do this correction because he was already wiped out by T2's events.

C) If it was legion, why would he build T800's? Why target John? He's not even the messiah anymore. Should've sent them after Dani instead.

 

They were blue but their facial features were mostly intact and they were all attractive people Zoe and Sam are very good looking. Even the evil sarge guy was good looking.

Harry Potter was a kid's movie, they had to get child actors for the kids to indentify themselves with. As the series went on and their public grew older, they also introduced manu attractive actors such as Gary Oldman, Robert Patinson, the girl who played Cho, The girl who played Fleur, the guy who played Krum, the guy who played the elder weasley that married Krum and they could not just ditch the trio that played the leading characters. Same goes for the fantastic animals trilogy, all good looking people, even if the movies were mostly crap.

 

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

How is it not a plot hole?  How come robots can go back to the past thx to a future computer that doesn't exist anymore? How would Skynet send anything after "aknowledging" his failure in T2 if he would be erased by the? Why would legion send a T800 after JC if he's not its nemesis?

The movie implies that Carl, the original T800, T1000 and the other terminator Sarah hunted were sent by Skynet, hence Carl had their deployment dates stored in his data, which also doesn't make sense since the future that created him is no more. Even if we ignore it and say he can exist because he was sent with the other T800's "before" T2 happened, why would skynet send him and the others to a date PAST judgement day? It wouldn't change anything at this point. Jc wouldn't be vulnerable anymore and he would be already erased.

 

 

There really isn't a scenario in the Terminator franchise, really even just counting T1 and T2, where there aren't plot holes. The framework of the films is time travel - no matter the outcome, the result is a time travel paradox. Before considering any sequels, let's look at T1 and pretend there are no sequels to factor in. Skynet sends a single T-800 back to 1984, and the resistance sends back Kyle Reese. Suppose Skynet succeeded - Sarah is dead, which means John is never born, which means the human resistance was crushed and Kyle never could've been sent back in the first place. In the film as it is, Skynet fails. This causes a paradox in the future - Kyle tells Sarah that Skynet is crippled and the humans have nearly won the war, sending the T-800 back to kill her was an act of desperation. How does Skynet know the T-800 failed, and how do they buy the time to keep sending back Terminator after Terminator?

When we move onto the sequels, things get more interesting in the paradox department. The fact that a T-1000 is sent back to kill John probably means some time has passed since Skynet sent back the T-800 to 1984 - why would they not be sending back their most efficient model to carry out a mission? This trend continues through the rest of the sequels. The question is, if Skynet was crippled in 2029 as of when Kyle was sent back to 1984, what changed? Additionally, there is no event in T2 that really, truly is of any consequence in the bigger picture. So the Cyberdine headquarters were destroyed along with the original T-800 arm and chip. But we saw Miles Dyson working tirelessly on the project at home - are we really to believe he's the only Cyberdine employee who has backup files and project info for any of this at home? All of this can be explained away by time travel paradoxes. But no one was upset about how T2 changed the meaning or nature of T1. The only real point worth mentioning from T3, Salvation, or Genisys is that T3 shows us Judgement Day wasn't stopped, only delayed. This is the major point of the whole franchise, and the fact that T2 even exists proves it - there is no stopping Judgement Day, humans will eventually cause their own demise one way or another

Skipping ahead to Dark Fate, lots of time travel paradoxes - this is where the timeline starts to get confusing. Skynet sent back the T-800's. While T3 and DF don't co-exist in the same timeline (More on that later), we know from T3 that Judgement Day can only be delayed. Sarah and John ran out the clock after T2 and survived to see the supposed Judgement Day in 1997 come and go with nothing happening. A year later, they've let down their guard - they think they won the war by destroying Skynet, but they have - they only delayed Judgement Day. Skynet is still functioning in the future, and are now sending Terminators back to various points in time to try and win the war. One eventually succeeds by killing John in 1998. At this point Skynet has won the war, but none of that really matters anymore because we then branch off to a different timeline. The Terminators that Sarah is hunting down over the next 20 years are sometimes Skynet Terminators, some Legion. Skynet was likely still sending Terminators back to all different points in time concurrently, an act of desperation. I may be imagining this, but I think in the film Carl explains how he knows where they're popping up but way of a sensitivity to electromagnetism when the time portal opens up, it's not that he intuitively knows that Skynet is sending Terminators back to this day and time. 

Now, this is really the key to tying all of the events of all six films together; the six films do not all exist in the same timeline. The franchise branches off into alternate timelines, which again can be explained away because "time travel paradox". There are three distinct timelines that I can think of are:

1. The Terminator  >>>  Terminator 2  >>>  Terminator 3
2. The Terminator  >>>  Terminator Genisys
3. The Terminator  >>>  Terminator 2  >>>  Terminator Dark Fate

What this means is, T3, Genisys, and Dark Fate do not all happen in relation to one another. When you consider the timeline, if one of those happened, the other two didn't. The most obvious proof of this in-universe is Sarah is revealed to have died in 1997 in T3, but Sarah is alive in both Genisys and Dark Fate. Genisys is an interesting one because in it we see an altered timeline for T1. I'm a little rusty on that one so I can't remember how the events of T2 correlate with Genisys. Salvation is also an interesting one because it solely takes place in the future - I think it could be argued that it both does, and does not explicitly fit into any of the timelines. The very nature of these films is that sequels will contradict one another - the more time travel happens in the universe, the more convoluted the timeline gets because from the point of time travel, there's essentially 2 possible outcomes that both could or could not happen - it's a basic Schrodinger's Cat situation. So yes, I suppose you could say that Dark Fate is a retcon, but it's somewhat that's really built into the nature of the story at it's core, and they don't really try to pretend it isn't.

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1 hour ago, downzy said:

Because the Terminators were sent out prior to Skynet being erased.  Otherwise the Terminators in T2 wouldn't have arrived either.  

Let's go over this again. 

Skynet existed in the future and sent back the T-1000 and the good T-800 for Terminator 2.  Sarah Conor in the new film says that before they changed the future, Skynet sent more Terminators.  Who knows exactly when this took place, but it was either at the same time it sent the T-1000 back or even before.  They show up later because that's when they're sent.  It doesn't matter that Skynet no longer exists since they depart at a time when Skynet does exist and arrive in a year where the future is changed as a result of T2.  Assume Carl does show up in 1998 in Guatemala some how (though he might have shown up earlier and needed time to track John down).  He's still from a future that existed before the events of T2 changed things.  

Carl, the good T800 that was in T2, and the T1000 were all sent from a future when Skynet existed before the events of T2 occurred. This is why Carl had their deploy dates in his data; they were either sent before he was sent or at the same time.  It's just they were sent to different years.  One area I'm a little confused about whether he actually had their deploy dates and locations or whether he can detect the arrival of Terminators from the future.  I'm guessing the latter since he was able to detect the Rev-9, a Terminator that isn't from Carl's future.  

Why not?  Wouldn't Skynet have learned as a result of the failure from the first Terminator film that Terminators may not succeed and as a result things might change?  Even if it assumes that Judgement Day does actually happen, wouldn't John still be Skynet's most wanted and might be vulnerable soon after judgement day?  Obviously John survives judgement day since he leads the resistance.  What difference does it make if they send Terminators back before or after the judgement day known to Skynet at the time they sent the Terminators back?

How Skynet would learn anything if it was erased?

Skynet knew Judgement day was in 1997. Why would he send a terminator after that if he was already on top? Also 1997 is a key date for it. He needs to ensure it happens. Sending a terminator after that makes no sense. What did Skynet accomplish by killing john on the beach? Nothing, he's still erased.

How were the terminators sent before he was erased if he sent those terminator past 1997 and he was erased in 1991?

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32 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

How Skynet would learn anything if it was erased?

It sent Terminators back before it was erased.  That's the point.  Again, think of it as a time loop.  Prior to Terminator 2, the events haven't changed that much and judgement day still happens in the late 90s and Skynet is still battling forces led by John Connor.  At some point it must have realized that the T-800 it sent back in Terminator 1 failed since John Connor still exists.  Or conversely, John Connor's continued existence rejigged things for T2, which could have led to Skynet sending Terminator back later, or further into the future (the T-1000).  Skynet still exists in that future to send multiple Terminators back.  It no longer exists once the events of T2 happen, but according to the timeline prior to the events of T2, it was still sending other Terminators back.  

32 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Skynet knew Judgement day was in 1997. Why would he send a terminator after that if he was already on top?

It wasn't on top though.  Judgement Day was the day Skynet became self-aware and launched nuclear weapons to incite a counter-attack by the Russians.  It wasn't the day humanity was wiped out, but the day Skynet started its assault on humanity.  John Connor still survives since he's the leader of the resistance.  The timeline that existed prior to T2 includes Skynet sending the T-1000 back along with, I suppose, other T-800s to other years (say, 1998).  As @Powerage5 mentions, the Terminators from the Skynet timeline stop arriving since back in that timeline they likely would have only sent Terminators back only so far (maybe another in 2000, another in 2002, etc), and with it the end of Terminators being sent back from Skynet.  The Legion timeline prevails and starts sending Terminators back to kill other future resistance leaders, one of which is Dani (maybe there's more or others, we don't know).  A good question to ask is why they sent only one T-1000 back.  Carl is a T-800 from the T1 days, so perhaps he was from that timeline and sent back before T-1000s were created.

32 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Also 1997 is a key date for it. He needs to ensure it happens. Sending a terminator after that makes no sense. What did Skynet accomplish by killing john on the beach? Nothing, he's still erased.

Judgement Day is an arbitrary date.  It can be moved forward or back depending on how time travellers affect the past.  The point of T3 and Dark Fate is that it can't be avoided.  In the Terminator universe humanity will always fuck things up and create a self-aware computer system that for whatever reason decides it needs to kill off humanity.  August 29th, 1997 was only relevant to the timeline prior to the events of T2.  Following the events of T2, things changed and the future timeline changed as well.  Judgement Day was moved and initiated by something other than Skynet (in this case, Legion).  But Skynet did exist at one point, but that timeline is really no longer relevant except for the Terminators it was able to send back before the events of T2.

32 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

How were the terminators sent before he was erased if he sent those terminator past 1997 and he was erased in 1991?

Again, it's a time loop that feeds another time loop.  The figure from the future is sent back to the past that causes the future to change.  That figure still exists, but the future in which he's from no longer exists.  So in this case the Terminators sent back are from a future that no longer happened, but they still exist.  They just changed the course of events to ensure that it didn't happen.  

 

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