jamillos Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, kiwiguns said: I still don't understand why people don't seem to get the fact TB have no control over what YouTube does as it's a third party. YouTube have their own policies around copyright and removeal of content as a third party and separate entity. What Russ said, plus: If you think it’s just these providers’ policy, then please go register on fan forums of other major rock bands (Metallica, AC/DC, whatever), ask them about their experience with YT and other social media regarding their uploading of videos and the amount of them having been taken down, and then please report back so that we can compare our results. I wonder whether their videos get liquidated as ferociously and in a similarly absurd extent as in GNR’s case. Or, to spare us and yourself this shit, just use some logic. No, this is not just some ordinary "policy". Edited November 14, 2019 by jamillos 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysteron Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 52 minutes ago, zombux said: if you call "fanatical fans" all the people who'd just like their favourite band to be releasing stuff just as every other band in the world, and would like to have some normal communication from the band/mgmt just as every other band/mgmt is doing - I see. then probably all of us must be fanatical, maybe besides huge piles of super casual fans who just go to shows to sing along KOHD and buy tshirt and toy truck. it's sad that these are the only target audience of the band for nearly a decade already, and definitely since the NITL reunion. the band and management showed numerous times (and keeps doing so) that everyone else who's more than super casual can just fuck off. this band's and this bands psychopathic management's attitude towards all of us is flat out hostile. everyone is frustrated because the fat axl memes are probably the only thing we can talk about for a long time. yeah, childish as hell, but hey - don't tell me the fanbase is to blame. every other band in the world and every other management in the world is trying to have a nice relationship with their fanbases and both parties are super happy about it. in GNR world - not so much. GNR management is probably the only management in the world, which has been and still is actively working on alienating the band from its fanbase. so no wonder people are frustrated and fed up with those incompetent clowns. all they can "manage" is probably selling some merch online and make Axl a cup of tea. everything else is massively successful almost despite their tryings. if the "management" just packed their things and went to hell, this snowball would still be massively successful, just for being there (and the label would probably make sure everything would make sense from the commercial point of view - but again - just the reunion itself is a cash generating machine, so why trying to "improve" something which generates billions without even trying) rant end. To be fair, I do not read everything about the band anymore, so you could be right. All I see though is the band have reformed to some degree, and they've had a good world tour. People who I know who have gone to see the band enjoyed the shows and that's it. I think the only thing I've ever recorded was a Cult show years ago, only because a friend was wondering what they were like many years later. That got taken down after a few weeks by YouTube, but I never thought anything of it. I don't know if anyone else agrees, but I can go back 10-15 years and think the band have not embraced the internet very well, or engaged with the fans well. If you look at Weezer even in the late 90s, Karl (I think his name was) was engaging with the fans really well. The band was posting unreleased tracks on their website against the record labels wishes, it was all very different to GN'R. Even going forward, there appears to be bands to have established fan clubs and official forums that thrive and do really well. But none of this ever happened with GN'R. Getting Merck to engage, well, it wasn't a chore, but it was hard, and that's all there really was. But, after reading the Axl interviews years later, I just assumed the band, Axl mainly, just had too much going on in the background. Lawsuits, expectations of the record label, financial problems. An because the band was silent, there ended up being a lot of negativity and there ended up being a them and us type of scenario. Basically, what I saying is, a lot of the feelings people have today may stem from yesteryear, and TB have just been handed a baton from the last manager, and have kept things going. I know someone is going to say, videos have been taken off youtube, it is TB's fault, blah blah blah, I'm just looking at things from a broader perspective. I'm just thinking, if the band are seen to have a successful tour, release a new album, then have another successful tour, then despite all the badness, there is, at least, some good work being done somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadSlash Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 Not for nothing, but is there a chance that these wouldn't happen so frequently and vigorously if we didn't talk about it all the time? Trolls need attention to live. Why would they ever stop getting shit pulled when they can see real time reactions here as soon as they do? This person is a legend because of threads like this. This is some of the most total and complete domination of a community by a troll that I have ever seen in my entire life. I understand an accept that there may be a knee jerk reaction of "fuck you dude!" because this is an emotionally charged issue, and if you happen to be someone feeling said reaction, take a deep breath and honestly ask yourself if you believe in your heart of hearts that the situation would be exactly as it is now had there been NO REACTION whatsoever? Maybe if we didn't incessantly jump when we were told, this person(s) would have fixated on something else. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 Regardless of TB's involvement in the takedowns, I am sure they could help reduce the takedowns if they so wanted. But then we need to communicate with them to make them understand they aren't hurt form the presence of live videos on the internet. We must help them understand that it would be good for them if the takedowns stopped. What we shouldn't do is to continue to antagonize them by hurling abuse. That just pushes them away and makes them less likely to listen to reason. And less likely to make an effort to stop the takedowns out of affection for this fringe part of the fanbase. As it is, they seem fine with what is happening and surely aren't going to do anything to please us, and we are not doing much constructive in the way of changing this. Basically, focus more on a solution than act all provoked over what is happening. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lio Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 15 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Regardless of TB's involvement in the takedowns, I am sure they could help reduce the takedowns if they so wanted. But then we need to communicate with them to make them understand they aren't hurt form the presence of live videos on the internet. We must help them understand that it would be good for them if the takedowns stopped. What we shouldn't do is to continue to antagonize them by hurling abuse. That just pushes them away and makes them less likely to listen to reason. And less likely to make an effort to stop the takedowns out of affection for this fringe part of the fanbase. As it is, they seem fine with what is happening and surely aren't going to do anything to please us, and we are not doing much constructive in the way of changing this. Basically, focus more on a solution than act all provoked over what is happening. Sounds like you've been reading a book about how to treat difficult toddlers Nothing we can do helps. Not being rude, not being nice. Most of us aren't hurling abuse, but they choose to focus on that. Fernando chose to come on here to communicate specifically with a poster who was really critical of him/TB/GNR. He doesn't choose to engage with people who are nice and respectful. They just get ignored. You can't blame people for trying to provoke you if you only react to provocations. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Lio said: Sounds like you've been reading a book about how to treat difficult toddlers Seems like there are toddlers on both sides in this conflict. "Nothing we can do help"? I can't remember this fanbase ever being nice to TB... And yes, it is only a some fans that are abusive, but in this case the bad apples do spoil the whole damn bunch when the rest of us are pretty much silent and the others are so vocal and repetitive. Take this thread as an example, how many are actually trying to solve the problem compared to how many who just attack TB? And with "solve the problem" I am not including efforts to strong-arm TB into taking a public stance. What we are basically doing is making sure a solution to the problem will forever elude us by continuing to cause animosity between us and TB, which, I believe, is part of the reason why TB isn't interested in stopping the takedowns in the first place. It is a downward spiral and someone has to act like adults if we are to break away. Just blaming TB for their poor communication is simply not solving anything except perhaps make people feel transiently better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombux Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 us "solve the problem" - yeah. for details, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 13 minutes ago, zombux said: us "solve the problem" - yeah. for details, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome What rational approach do you suggest to make TB change their stance on the takedowns? They apparently don't understand live videos could be of value to them, so to me it makes sense to talk to them about this and try to make them see the benefits. How is constant attacking them going to help this case, or future situations? It just doesn't make any sense to me why people who are upset about something act in ways that are contrary to a possible solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
default_ Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 Just to add something to the table: I'm a graphic artist and I've recently put a YouTube channel focused on art and a instagram page. I've done an Izzy fanart and uploaded the video on the process of doing it to YouTube and Instagram with Izzy's Train Tracks as background music. The video was removed both from YouTube and Instagram. I did another version of this video, this time just to see where it would go with 14 Years extended demo from one of the Illusion sessions, it was again removed from YouTube but not from Instagram. What bugs me is: Do they have power even over Izzy songs? JuJu Hounds was released by Geffen by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombux Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 19 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: They apparently don't understand I'd just shorten your post to just this. and I can't see why people should try talking to them about it, because they don't want to. actually people were trying to talk to them since the shit started (was it this Spring or the Spring last year? I don't remember) and all they got in reply was (in shortened form) F OFF. so there's clearly no point in further waste time trying to talk to them again and again. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Lio Posted November 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 14, 2019 11 minutes ago, zombux said: I'd just shorten your post to just this. and I can't see why people should try talking to them about it, because they don't want to. actually people were trying to talk to them since the shit started (was it this Spring or the Spring last year? I don't remember) and all they got in reply was (in shortened form) F OFF. so there's clearly no point in further waste time trying to talk to them again and again. Yes, and Margott can't be accused for hurling abuse at TB Yet she got a nasty remark from Beta. If even a huge fan who has been nothing but supportive for many years can't get through to them, no one will. I honestly think it's a lost cause. It is what it is though. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombux Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 Just now, Lio said: I honestly think it's a lost cause. It is what it is though. +1 to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamillos Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 39 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: What rational approach do you suggest to make TB change their stance on the takedowns? They apparently don't understand live videos could be of value to them, so to me it makes sense to talk to them about this and try to make them see the benefits. How is constant attacking them going to help this case, or future situations? It just doesn't make any sense to me why people who are upset about something act in ways that are contrary to a possible solution. Well, the fact that they apparently don’t understand that live videos could be of value to them (as you’ve said) speaks for itself, doesn’t it. How a manager of a band does not understand such a basic thing in 2019 is beyond by comprehension. We’re not talking about some minor country band from highlands here. But ok. And are we really constantly attacking them? All I see is this thread plus some others – it’s not like we’re sending all this text to the management via e-mail, is it. And if someone from TB happens to pop in, it’s up to them what they’ll choose to read and react to. Also, the only two major responses I can remember – apart from the recent Beta’s – was from Del, which was utterly dismissive and ridiculous, and from Nando, which... well, we’ve seen it. He chooses ulterior communication anyway, Reddit and whatnot. I see what you’re saying, but I believe honest attempts have already been made. Summarized, unbiased posts etc. What’s next? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysteron Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 36 minutes ago, default_ said: Just to add something to the table: I'm a graphic artist and I've recently put a YouTube channel focused on art and a instagram page. I've done an Izzy fanart and uploaded the video on the process of doing it to YouTube and Instagram with Izzy's Train Tracks as background music. The video was removed both from YouTube and Instagram. I did another version of this video, this time just to see where it would go with 14 Years extended demo from one of the Illusion sessions, it was again removed from YouTube but not from Instagram. What bugs me is: Do they have power even over Izzy songs? JuJu Hounds was released by Geffen by the way. I don't know how it works. There a lot of stuff online about it, there was even a story of a bands own official video being taken off their official youtube page by one of these takedowns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 49 minutes ago, default_ said: Just to add something to the table: I'm a graphic artist and I've recently put a YouTube channel focused on art and a instagram page. I've done an Izzy fanart and uploaded the video on the process of doing it to YouTube and Instagram with Izzy's Train Tracks as background music. The video was removed both from YouTube and Instagram. I did another version of this video, this time just to see where it would go with 14 Years extended demo from one of the Illusion sessions, it was again removed from YouTube but not from Instagram. What bugs me is: Do they have power even over Izzy songs? JuJu Hounds was released by Geffen by the way. Judging from this incident, Izzy isn't too happy about his songs being uploaded on youtube either: http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/217054-wacky-world-of-the-ominous-ninja-izzy-stradlin-and-no-gang/?do=findComment&comment=4353429 http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/217054-wacky-world-of-the-ominous-ninja-izzy-stradlin-and-no-gang/?do=findComment&comment=4361517 http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/217054-wacky-world-of-the-ominous-ninja-izzy-stradlin-and-no-gang/?do=findComment&comment=4367100 Different reaction by the fans, though 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lio Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, Blackstar said: Judging from this incident, Izzy isn't too happy about his songs being uploaded on youtube either: http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/217054-wacky-world-of-the-ominous-ninja-izzy-stradlin-and-no-gang/?do=findComment&comment=4353429 http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/217054-wacky-world-of-the-ominous-ninja-izzy-stradlin-and-no-gang/?do=findComment&comment=4361517 http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/217054-wacky-world-of-the-ominous-ninja-izzy-stradlin-and-no-gang/?do=findComment&comment=4367100 Different reaction by the fans, though So we can't blame this on TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 5 minutes ago, Lio said: So we can't blame this on TB Yeah. Maybe Izzy doesn't know how youtube works and that he can monetize the videos uploaded by others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 1 hour ago, zombux said: I'd just shorten your post to just this. and I can't see why people should try talking to them about it, because they don't want to. actually people were trying to talk to them since the shit started (was it this Spring or the Spring last year? I don't remember) and all they got in reply was (in shortened form) F OFF. so there's clearly no point in further waste time trying to talk to them again and again. I do not get a "fuck off" when I talk to them, so I can't agree with this. We here at mygnrforum might get a "fuck off", so ask yourself, why is it so? Why are we here at this forum at this impasse and is there something we can do to normalize relations? We might not agree on what can be done to fix the issue, but I think we can all agree that hurling insults will only make things worse. There is a disagreement between us and them in regards to the value of the youtube videos, and it is not a disagreement that cannot be resolved. But that requires communication. And perhaps our past history means we cannot communicate with them because they don't want to hear from us. Then why not make it so that they don't mind hearing from us in the future? Why cement the bad relations? We have zero to gain from that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 1 hour ago, jamillos said: I see what you’re saying, but I believe honest attempts have already been made. Summarized, unbiased posts etc. What’s next? Maybe honest attempts at convincing them that have been made. I can't say I have seen any around here but I haven't read every single post either. But let's not give up, eh? There will be new disagreements between TB and us hardcore fans in the future, too, I am sure, and if we actually, really want to have some leverage in discussions and make them come round to our thinking, then we should make an effort of not poisoning the well of discourse through hurling insults now. Again, someone needs to be the adults here. 30 minutes ago, Blackstar said: Yeah. Maybe Izzy doesn't know how youtube works and that he can monetize the videos uploaded by others. I have reason to believe TB doesn't know this, either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussTCB Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: I do not get a "fuck off" when I talk to them, so I can't agree with this. We here at mygnrforum might get a "fuck off", so ask yourself, why is it so? Why are we here at this forum at this impasse and is there something we can do to normalize relations? We might not agree on what can be done to fix the issue, but I think we can all agree that hurling insults will only make things worse. There is a disagreement between us and them in regards to the value of the youtube videos, and it is not a disagreement that cannot be resolved. But that requires communication. And perhaps our past history means we cannot communicate with them because they don't want to hear from us. Then why not make it so that they don't mind hearing from us in the future? Why cement the bad relations? We have zero to gain from that. The staff here has been more than outgoing with respect to TB. Their (TB) attitude in general towards the fans is "fuck off" though, and that's what upsets me. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: I have reason to believe TB doesn't know this, either. Yeah, it's very likely they don't know, although I think the artists don't get much, if any, from youtube and it goes to the label if they're signed with one. I think Izzy hasn't had a label behind him, though, after the Ju Ju Hounds. Edited November 14, 2019 by Blackstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, RussTCB said: The staff here has been more than outgoing with respect to TB. Their (TB) attitude in general towards the fans is "fuck off" though, and that's what upsets me. I am impressed with what @downzy and his team has done since the takeover in trying to normalize relations with TB. Then it is a bit disappointing that it seems the towel has now been thrown in and whatever ground had been claimed is now abandoned. Not that I blame you guys for giving up, I am not privy to the discussions that have been had and what exactly has been said. It is just sad to see that we are back to year 0 so to speak. As for their reaction to fans in general being "fuck off", I disagree. They definitely conflate groups of fans, like thinking every passionate fans is likely to be very critical of TB. Or that everyone who supports live videos are stealing from the band (like Margott). And so on. But there are enough examples of fans and TB having friendly relations, i.e. at meetings at shows. What I fear though, is that the more abuse is hurled by us towards them, and the more they come across as unreasonable and unfriendly towards fans, the less are our chances of establishing a normal constructive relationship. I am sure that this whole takedown-debacle has just made TB more upset about the fanbase, and now considers that even more of the entire fanbase are against them. So it gets just worse and worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 5 minutes ago, Blackstar said: Yeah, it's very likely they don't know, although I think the artists don't get much, if any, from youtube and it goes to the label if they're signed with one. I think Izzy hasn't had a label behind him, though, after the Ju Ju Hounds. And if the artists doesn't get anything directly, then the benefits are more intangible and requires more sophisticated argumentation (like pointing to how live videos keep the fan base alive, how it created interest in live shows, etc). An additional problem is the belief among TB that not only are they not getting any revenues, but someone else is earning money from the videos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussTCB Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 27 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: I am impressed with what @downzy and his team has done since the takeover in trying to normalize relations with TB. Then it is a bit disappointing that it seems the towel has now been thrown in and whatever ground had been claimed is now abandoned. Not that I blame you guys for giving up, I am not privy to the discussions that have been had and what exactly has been said. It is just sad to see that we are back to year 0 so to speak. As for their reaction to fans in general being "fuck off", I disagree. They definitely conflate groups of fans, like thinking every passionate fans is likely to be very critical of TB. Or that everyone who supports live videos are stealing from the band (like Margott). And so on. But there are enough examples of fans and TB having friendly relations, i.e. at meetings at shows. What I fear though, is that the more abuse is hurled by us towards them, and the more they come across as unreasonable and unfriendly towards fans, the less are our chances of establishing a normal constructive relationship. I am sure that this whole takedown-debacle has just made TB more upset about the fanbase, and now considers that even more of the entire fanbase are against them. So it gets just worse and worse. All I can do is disagree overall. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 I am giving a joke away for free here but that Stalinist handshake picture of the Mygnr and Team Brazil fists is well overdue in this conversation? Somebody? (I cannot find it!). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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