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The UFO thread


Basic_GnR_Fan

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2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I wouldn't say I am dismissing it. It's not like we are talking about godly existence or anything :D. I just find it much more likely we haven't been visited by aliens than that we have. But it is absolutely not impossible. So again, I don't want to rain on anybody's parade here and sort of make it seem I dismiss it entirely, or think less of any of you for believing it. I don't. But when asked to contribute I just wanted to point to a few things not everybody may be considering when thinking about aliens visiting earth, and which I believe at the very least lowers the likelihood of this having ever happened. But again, I am not dismissing it and I will look forward with excitement for any actual evidence, beyond personal anecdotes and ambiguous footage, that suggests we have indeed been honored with a visit.

That's fair. And from a scientific point of view you are right. I am not one to usually dismiss science in any way, but in the knowledge that in regards to all of this we don't know a lot yet, and with everything that I have read or watched about this, I lean more towards thinking that it is likely. I probably look at it as a simpleton and use a simple logic to why it's possible, and that's something more scientific people would never do, but that doesn't automatically mean you can't be right. I'd love to be proven wrong or rather even proven right. I hope we will get real answers in our lifetimes. 

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7 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Has there been any new developments? Isn't this the same old story of some guys in the military claiming to have witnessed something but now telling the story in new channels? As far as being able to conclude on what was observed, have we come any further?

I can't remember what I wrote before, but this might be three new perspectives:

- Statistics. Occasionally equipment malfunctions, occasionally weather phenomena create weird stuff, occasionally people lie about things, occasionally multiple people lie about things in conspiracies. These things just happen but are rare. But when you multiply with the number of people involved, the number of observations, the number of times people point cameras at the sky, the number of times an event takes place, it follows that the rarest of outcomes will happen now and then. That each year some remarkable observation will take place that just seems to good to be true, but actually follows from the laws of probability theory when exceedingly rare outcomes manifest themselves because of the humongous number of events. I don't think we humans are very good at taking into account the Law of Truly Large Numbers. If there is a million-to-one chance that flying goose will fly in formation that from a specific angle creates a spitting image of a car, then photos of this will emerge every now and then because of the sheer amount of people photographic the sky. My point is, we must not be deceived by seemingly fantastical observations considering how often we observe things.

- Distances. As I believe I wrote about before, I believe in life in the universe, even intelligent life. My dad learnt me Drake's Equation after he took me on a mountain top to look at the night sky one day, and I have quite a few times played around with the factors and trying to come up with various numbers for the amount of intelligent extraterrestrial civilizations in the universe (from much less than 1 to billions). I find the notion that we should be alone bordering on religious hubris. I believe the universe is teeming with life. But, that doesn't mean we will ever be able to communicate, much less, meet with them. Because the distances are so vast between hospitable planets. Someone mentioned the fact that we are close to send humans to Mars, yes, sure, but the distance from Earth to Mars is just 3x10^8 km. The distance to our closest solar system is  4*10^13 km. It is not just a case of travelling a bit further. It takes the sun more than 4 years to travel the distance from our closet neighbouring star system, but mere minutes to reach us from Mars! And I get the point that advanced, alien technologies may allow us to travel at speeds close to the speed of light, but that's a huge assumption and the amount of energy required for acceleration is staggering. Science fiction writers frequently evade the issue by using wormholes that bend spacetime and stuff, but that is, unfortunately, just scientific speculation at this time. So to me, it is very likely that the gulf of distance between us and them can never be traversed, even if an alien civilization is much more intelligent than us and have much more time to develop technologies. Which brings me to the last point...

- Time. Stars come and go. More specifically, the typical lifecycle of a star system is about 10 billion years. This means we are about halfway until we as humans disappear. We have spent half our time in existence at just coming up with mobile phones. I am not saying a more intelligent species couldn't develop techs much quicker, and maybe they evolve through a much more long-living star like a red dwarf. Of course. My point is simply that we or they don't have indefinite time available and this must be taken into consideration as a constraint when considering what is likely. 

- Evolution. I take for granted aliens will have been formed through evolution. Not likely based on the same molecules as on earth, but that the process of random change followed by non-random selection is the only naturalistic process that can form life. But the thing about evolution is that it just adapts creatures to their environments. It doesn't move towards any specific goal, except being well-adapted. And from studying evolution here on earth, it is clear that evolution of  high intelligence is too costly to frequently be advantageous to a species. Which is why we are the only very intelligent species on earth. Most life forms here on earth can manage splendidly without being smart, or even have a brain. This is likely the case elsewhere in the universe too. Aliens will have been evolved to just tackle the cognitive difficulties that they have to tackle to propagate, to navigate the difficulties of their immediate surroundings. Anything more is a waste of resources, from an evolutionary perspective. From this follows that (like on earth), most alien lifeforms will not be intelligent - far from it. And those that are intelligent, like humans, may not be intelligent enough to tackle the question of interstellar travel, because that might require much more in terms of brainpower than evolution will ever come up with.

In conclusion, despite there being other intelligent beings scattered through the vast space of the universe, I fear none of them will be able to develop technology that will allow for communication with others, simply because of the constraints of time and space.

These are all solid points and I don't disagree with much of it. But I do take issue with the bolded. That seems like a religious like point to make that these distances can never be traversed. Bending space time is just a theory right now, yes, but things are theories and speculation until they are not. There may be ways to traverse great distances that we haven't even thought of yet. The radar returns allegedly showed the tic-tac craft from the Nimitz incident in 2004 went from 80,000 feet in the air (the maximum range of the Spy-1 radar) to just above the surface of the ocean in less than a second. The ability to bend space time might just be staring us in the face right now.

As far as new information, there actually was some new info on the 60 minutes piece. We had another pilot from the Nimitz encounter come out and verify Dave Fravor's account of what happened, and she was at a different vantage point than him, so very powerful testimony to have multiple pilots from different vantage points back up what the radar and sensors were showing. 

Also new was Ryan Graves (pilot during the 2014-15) time period stated that he was seeing UAP almost every day for a couple of years. So there probably a plethora of compelling cases the DOD is sitting on that we have no clue about yet.

Lastly, Obama all but confirmed he was briefed on cases that Lue Elizondo has been talking about and he took it seriously (with craft doing insane speeds, with no wings, no signs of propulsion, hypersonic speeds with sonic boom, etc.)

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1 hour ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

These are all solid points and I don't disagree with much of it. But I do take issue with the bolded. That seems like a religious like point to make that these distances can never be traversed.

I didn't say they could never be traversed, I said that it is "very likely [...] they can never be traversed". Fact is, there are some barriers that are insurmountable. Some restrictions that may never be overcome. The vast distances of the Universe may be one of them.

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2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I didn't say they could never be traversed, I said that it is "very likely [...] they can never be traversed". Fact is, there are some barriers that are insurmountable. Some restrictions that may never be overcome. The vast distances of the Universe may be one of them.

In my mind, I would be more precise and say...insurmountable with our current understanding of physics and level of technology.

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I want to know whenever they show pictures of space and the moon or another planet what or who is taking these pictures out there? Like the thing that landed on Mars and they show pictures of it on the ground and then taking off. Who or what taking those pictures?

Just curious. Not much for science so would be cool if you guys know how it's done.

thanks.

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Well, this thread actually turned into educational debate after being dormant for awhile. I’m surprised more people haven’t contributed to this thread. No matter what side you take it’s one of the most interesting subjects that can be discussed.

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9 hours ago, dontdamnmeuyi2015 said:

I want to know whenever they show pictures of space and the moon or another planet what or who is taking these pictures out there? Like the thing that landed on Mars and they show pictures of it on the ground and then taking off. Who or what taking those pictures?

Uhm, they have cameras installed on all the equipment that is sent into space.

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On 3/31/2021 at 9:00 PM, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Let's wait and see what the report says in June (if it's even released on time). I'm predicting the report is very light on specifics and will essentially just say that there are vehicles flying in US airspace that the Navy and Air Force can't identify. I'm not even sure if the report will talk about any of the flight characteristics captured on radar and other sensor data. There is supposed to be a confidential annex to the report that only congress can read, that's probably where all the flight characteristics will be talked about.

1000% not just the US that is encountering these things, other countries like Russia, China etc. aren't sharing info. They are viewing anything unexplainable as a threat, possibly another country has made an almost unbelievable technological leap (unlikely), if so what is it, what is the threat level, how do they get their hands on it.

Someone said that for a country to build something like what was viewed on radar, they would basically need to have found an ET ship and reverse engineer it... I mean the stories of reverse engineering alien ships is not new, Lazars story seems to be pretty consistent... or he's an excellent liar / manipulator.

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4 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

1000% not just the US that is encountering these things, other countries like Russia, China etc. aren't sharing info. They are viewing anything unexplainable as a threat, possibly another country has made an almost unbelievable technological leap (unlikely), if so what is it, what is the threat level, how do they get their hands on it.

Someone said that for a country to build something like what was viewed on radar, they would basically need to have found an ET ship and reverse engineer it... I mean the stories of reverse engineering alien ships is not new, Lazars story seems to be pretty consistent... or he's an excellent liar / manipulator.

Yeah it's hard to know if any country has actually recovered a craft. You always hear rumors of that but there's no way to verify that. What I am very confident of is that all the major nations definitely have crash recovery teams who try to recover this stuff. I mean, who wouldn't. If you've got incredible things flying in your airspace, the ultimate prize is to capture one of these things if they go down.

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1 hour ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Yeah it's hard to know if any country has actually recovered a craft. You always hear rumors of that but there's no way to verify that. What I am very confident of is that all the major nations definitely have crash recovery teams who try to recover this stuff. I mean, who wouldn't. If you've got incredible things flying in your airspace, the ultimate prize is to capture one of these things if they go down.

Yeah getting a technology like that would be game changing. Unfortunately it would be used for military rather than for good, but no surprises there. 

Have you watched the Bob Lazar doc? It seems so unlikely he told the truth about the existence of element 115, and then be talking BS about the ships in the hangers. It's so whacky it's hard to judge but interesting nonetheless 

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12 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Yeah getting a technology like that would be game changing. Unfortunately it would be used for military rather than for good, but no surprises there. 

Have you watched the Bob Lazar doc? It seems so unlikely he told the truth about the existence of element 115, and then be talking BS about the ships in the hangers. It's so whacky it's hard to judge but interesting nonetheless 

The tech race would be very similar to the race for nuclear weapon technology. Whoever masters Tic Tac like technology first is the unquestioned master of the skies and it would allow someone to militarily leapfrog the US (which I think China does eventually, but they could do it overnight with this). 

I've always put the Lazar in the 'big, if true' category. You can't really verify his story, but it's interesting how consistent he's been over all this time. Also interesting that he said the saucer craft flew belly towards the direction it was going. I had never heard that before, and interestingly enough that's what it seems like the Gimbal craft is doing when the video cuts off.

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Lazar also never claims it's ET. He doesn't think it could be human technology but for the short amount of time he worked on that craft, he wasn't given any information about its origin and there was a lot of secrecy, so he has only ever talked about what he knows.

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Just checked the wikipedia page on this Lazar guy you talk about:

 

Quote

Robert Scott Lazar (/ləˈzɑːr/; born January 26, 1959) is an American conspiracy theorist who claims to have been hired in the late 1980s to reverse-engineer extraterrestrial technology at what he described as a secret site called "S-4". Lazar alleges that this subsidiary installation is located several kilometres south of the United States Air Force facility popularly known as Area 51.

Lazar claims he examined an alien craft that ran on an antimatter reactor powered by element 115, which at the time had not yet been synthesized. He also claims to have read US government briefing documents that described alien involvement in human affairs over the past 10,000 years. Lazar's claims resulted in bringing added public attention to Area 51 and fueling conspiracy theories surrounding its classified activities.

Lazar has no evidence to support his core claim of alien technology. His story has been analyzed and rejected by skeptics and some ufologists. Universities from which he claims to hold degrees show no record of him, and supposed former workplaces have disavowed him. In 1990, he was convicted for his involvement in a prostitution ring and again in 2006 for selling illegal chemicals.

He doesn't come across as very trustworthy now, does he?

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6 hours ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

The tech race would be very similar to the race for nuclear weapon technology. Whoever masters Tic Tac like technology first is the unquestioned master of the skies and it would allow someone to militarily leapfrog the US (which I think China does eventually, but they could do it overnight with this). 

I've always put the Lazar in the 'big, if true' category. You can't really verify his story, but it's interesting how consistent he's been over all this time. Also interesting that he said the saucer craft flew belly towards the direction it was going. I had never heard that before, and interestingly enough that's what it seems like the Gimbal craft is doing when the video cuts off.

The only verification is through time, and some things have proven correct; other parts remain questionable. I think it would be impossible for him to have guessed the stuff he mentioned though, specifically element 115 etc.

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2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Just checked the wikipedia page on this Lazar guy you talk about:

 

He doesn't come across as very trustworthy now, does he?

Yeah, you should watch the documentary because those 3 paragraphs are heavily slanted. There's a whole section on this subject. Is he legit, is he not? I don't know, but he sure has made up some incredible things that were mocked for 30yrs and then turned out to be true. How do you explain it? I can't.

As for college and workplace records. Old workplace records were found that listed him, people who worked with him said "oh yeah he worked here for a while" but the companies said "we have no record of this person". You have to at least consider the possibility that his credentials were scrubbed. Not saying that as fact, but IF what he was saying is factual, the government would have gone out of their way to make his life difficult as they have with many others.

As for the prostitution... A mans gotta eat🤣

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Documentary about him is on Netflix, which will provide you with more information than reading wikipedia. But sceptics won't believe him anyway unless there's real evidence, and even then some won't believe it.

I think the only 'evidence' he has is footage of a UFO that he made at the Area 51 location, but as always with that type of footage, it can be anything and if you're already sceptical, you probably won't believe it.

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Another interesting piece on Netflix about UFOs is episode 5 of season 1 of ''Unsolved Mysteries'', about the Berkshires UFO in 1969. There was an encounter with a craft that night and many people from that town had unexplained experiences happening to them. It's hard for me believe that all those people (and not just one or two), who don't even know each other, are lying. 

I'm not saying what happened there that night was an encounter with a craft from another planet, but something unexplainable happened and it's definitely fascinating. 

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6 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

Like if it was only element 115 that would be enough in my opinion https://www.nbcnews.com/sciencemain/new-super-heavy-element-115-confirmed-8c11015299 They categorically denied this when he discussed it 30+yrs ago. 

They categorically denied that an element with atomic number 115 would exist? Hasn't it been one of the theorized elements for a long time before it was experimentally synthesized? What is interesting about Lazar and moscovium (the element's proper name) is not that he said it was real, but that he claims aliens use it to propel their crafts (which, of course, hasn't been shown to be true and seems extremely unlikely based on what we know of moscovium and its rapid decay).

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17 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I'm not saying what happened there that night was an encounter with a craft from another planet, but something unexplainable happened and it's definitely fascinating. 

It is not really unexplainable if the explanation is that people were lying for fame or to sell their stories, for attention, were fooled by something they actually but weren't aliens, were victims of mass suggestion and other psychological phenomena (like mass psychoses), etc. In short, it is not exactly uncommon that people are wrong about things.

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7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

It is not really unexplainable if the explanation is that people were lying for fame or to sell their stories, for attention, were fooled by something they actually but weren't aliens, were victims of mass suggestion and other psychological phenomena (like mass psychoses), etc. In short, it is not exactly uncommon that people are wrong about things.

People are wrong about things all the time. And of course there are loonies who lie about these type of things because they are either crazy, they crave the attention, or they think they can make some money out of it. But does that mean everyone of them is like that? I doubt it.

You should watch the episode, which I am sure you won't and even if you do you won't believe it. I don't know what happened there that night. But something did and without evidence it's hard for me to believe anything, but I am leaning towards believing all those people.

Edited by EvanG
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