soon Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 Nah, Im not concerned that the Earth needs me. Its that I need the Earth. It's where I keep all my stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 23 minutes ago, action said: you see, much of the problem is rooted in "anthropocentrism". the misguided belief that everything on earth and even the universe revolves around mankind. It's this ridiculous belief that earth is made for "us" and that the only way earth can move on, is if "we" keep on existing. A quick look at our planetary history however, shows that mankind on a scale of 12 hours is only here for the last 5 minutes, and that over the course of many geological timescales, species came and went. When the dinosaurs got extinct (due to planet sized climate change), the planet didnt cease to exist. Other species got their chance. well, the same will happen here; Inevitably, the climate will change in such ways that mankind can no longer stand it, and we can't survive. This place will then become a paradise for species who favour a hot climate. With the extinction of mankind, nature will repair itself, new species will arise and much of the sorrow that's rampant on earth today will be long forgotten, with all living things in the future being oblivious about our short but idiotic little run on earth. Our concern is not that Earth will be destroyed . It has been a lot warmer here previously than what worst case scenarios of global warming predicts. So this is not about Earth. It will go on regardless. But about conditions for humans (and other lifeforms). If the climate keeps changing radically, we will see an increase in species die-off, disruption of ecosystems, and huge problems for us to overcome. So yes, this is about us and not about Earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Our concern is not that Earth will be destroyed . It has been a lot warmer here previously than what worst case scenarios of global warming predicts. So this is not about Earth. It will go on regardless. But about conditions for humans (and other lifeforms). If the climate keeps changing radically, we will see an increase in species die-off, disruption of ecosystems, and huge problems for us to overcome. So yes, this is about us and not about Earth. I agree. this is about us. but there is the start of all your problems. Because it always was "about us", we experience all the problems we have today. Basically, mankind is too shelfish, never ever considering other values. Is there a civilisation, ever, that set aside their own needs in favor of the climate, the environment? Yes, there was: the indigenous people of america for example. But that's all a thing of the past, and you can't possibly expect mankind to go back to that state (back being a perverse word, since we were never in that state to begin with!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, action said: I agree. this is about us. but there is the start of all your problems. Because it always was "about us", we experience all the problems we have today. Basically, mankind is too shelfish, never ever considering other values. Is there a civilisation, ever, that set aside their own needs in favor of the climate, the environment? Yes, there was: the indigenous people of america for example. But that's all a thing of the past, and you can't possibly expect mankind to go back to that state (back being a perverse word, since we were never in that state to begin with!). I can certainly expect us to make changes that slow down global warming. We already are. The question is, will we make sufficient changes before it is too late? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) "Are you saying, we shouldn't try then" is always the argument I hear. No, we shouldn't try, I say. What we should do then, is enjoy life for the time we have left, happily and without a care in the world. Try to care for your loved ones more, in stead of caring for the climate. Trust me, you will get much more satisfaction from that. But that's increasingly hard to do in this world. That way, the 11 years we still have left according to @soon won't have been in total vain anyway. There is so much to enjoy. Video games, movies, books, food... what a sin it would be, to waste that away in our short time left. This planet is going straight to oblivion and not a damn thing we can do about it. Species get extinct left right and center, natural disasters increase and has made many victims already. For them, it's too late to enjoy life. Not for you. Those who keep on worrying, complaining and restricting themselves should be ashamed, for wasting away their lives. As for me personally, I believe the best thing I can do in my situation, is enjoy life and the privileges and joys life throws at me, as a token of gratitude to the mystery of life. It's not easy to do though, the world tends to depress you sometimes, people like greta make me feel guilty for bloody enjoying my life, but overall I'd say that yeah, it's all pretty worthwile. So put that in your pipe and smoke it Edited October 11, 2019 by action Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 9 minutes ago, action said: "Are you saying, we shouldn't try then" is always the argument I hear. No, we shouldn't try, I say. What we should do then, is enjoy life for the time we have left, happily and without a care in the world. @soon That irresponsible and selfish. And based on the flawed idea that we can't make changes and still enjoy ourselves, and the flawed idea that it is futile. (I couldn't erase the soon link on my phone, sorry.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 14 minutes ago, action said: "Are you saying, we shouldn't try then" is always the argument I hear. No, we shouldn't try, I say. What we should do then, is enjoy life for the time we have left, happily and without a care in the world. Try to care for your loved ones more, in stead of caring for the climate. Trust me, you will get much more satisfaction from that. But that's increasingly hard to do in this world. That way, the 11 years we still have left according to @soon won't have been in total vain anyway. There is so much to enjoy. Video games, movies, books, food... what a sin it would be, to waste that away in our short time left. This planet is going straight to oblivion and not a damn thing we can do about it. Species get extinct left right and center, natural disasters increase and has made many victims already. For them, it's too late to enjoy life. Not for you. Those who keep on worrying, complaining and restricting themselves should be ashamed, for wasting away their lives. As for me personally, I believe the best thing I can do in my situation, is enjoy life and the privileges and joys life throws at me, as a token of gratitude to the mystery of life. It's not easy to do though, the world tends to depress you sometimes, people like greta make me feel guilty for bloody enjoying my life, but overall I'd say that yeah, it's all pretty worthwile. So put that in your pipe and smoke it No. Not according to me. According to climate scientists and the UN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 22 minutes ago, action said: "Are you saying, we shouldn't try then" is always the argument I hear. No, we shouldn't try, I say. What we should do then, is enjoy life for the time we have left, happily and without a care in the world. Try to care for your loved ones more, in stead of caring for the climate. Trust me, you will get much more satisfaction from that. But that's increasingly hard to do in this world. That way, the 11 years we still have left according to @soon won't have been in total vain anyway. There is so much to enjoy. Video games, movies, books, food... what a sin it would be, to waste that away in our short time left. This planet is going straight to oblivion and not a damn thing we can do about it. Species get extinct left right and center, natural disasters increase and has made many victims already. For them, it's too late to enjoy life. Not for you. Those who keep on worrying, complaining and restricting themselves should be ashamed, for wasting away their lives. As for me personally, I believe the best thing I can do in my situation, is enjoy life and the privileges and joys life throws at me, as a token of gratitude to the mystery of life. It's not easy to do though, the world tends to depress you sometimes, people like greta make me feel guilty for bloody enjoying my life, but overall I'd say that yeah, it's all pretty worthwile. So put that in your pipe and smoke it Jesus fuck, I hope you're joking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 10 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: That irresponsible and selfish. And based on the flawed idea that we can't make changes and still enjoy ourselves, and the flawed idea that it is futile. (I couldn't erase the soon link on my phone, sorry.) so what should I do then? guess what I'll do in 5 minutes time. Me and my family will take the car, drive 15 km to a hamburger restaurant because we happen to like them the most, and enjoy a super deluxe cheeseburger there. It'll paint a laugh on my son and wife's face and what are you telling me to do? Tell them the news that it won't happen, since greta and you told us we're selfish? hah! it so happens, that the good stuff in life harms the environment. How about, I try to find joy and rest, in the good things in life, and I try to reject doomsday prophecies by environmental extremists as much as possible? Sure you can find me selfish. But I would advise to you, you do like me. don't throw your life away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 10 minutes ago, action said: so what should I do then? Follow the recommendations as best you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 22 minutes ago, action said: so what should I do then? guess what I'll do in 5 minutes time. Me and my family will take the car, drive 15 km to a hamburger restaurant because we happen to like them the most, and enjoy a super deluxe cheeseburger there. It'll paint a laugh on my son and wife's face and what are you telling me to do? Tell them the news that it won't happen, since greta and you told us we're selfish? hah! it so happens, that the good stuff in life harms the environment. How about, I try to find joy and rest, in the good things in life, and I try to reject doomsday prophecies by environmental extremists as much as possible? *Climate scientists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 He is correct though. The history of the world consists of multiple mass extinction events, and our Sun does have a shelf life. You're probably going to have to discover a ''planet B'' irrespective of man's pollution one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: He is correct though. The history of the world consists of multiple mass extinction events, and our Sun does have a shelf life. You're probably going to have to discover a ''planet B'' irrespective of man's pollution one day. No one has disagreed that there have been mass extinctions before nor that eventually the sun will stop burning It is entirely irrelevant to the discussion, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 1 hour ago, SoulMonster said: Follow the recommendations as best you can. you can avoid climate change, like you can avoid death. as certain as death is, as certain it is that mankind will get extinct and it's increasingly likely this will be our own doing. but today, all is still fine. enjoy life, and be kind to your brothers and sisters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, action said: but today, all is still fine. enjoy life, and be kind to your brothers and sisters. No, today all is not fine. How about not turing our brothers and sisters into climate refugees or casualties? Would that be kind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 1 minute ago, soon said: No, today all is not fine. How about not turing our brothers and sisters into climate refugees or casualties? Would that be kind? It's fine, they're foreign and poor and far away... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, soon said: No, today all is not fine. How about not turing our brothers and sisters into climate refugees or casualties? Would that be kind? if your argument is that I'm turning my loved ones into climate refugees, then I think this necessitates further explanation. Could you put a value, in %, to my contribution to climate change over the past 50 years (I was born in the early 80s and climate change started since before then) Case of knowing just how much I'm personally contributing. If I know this number which you will provide me, then I can weigh the negative effects of my behaviour to the vast positive effects my behaviour has on myself, my wife, my son and everyone I love. Because you're asking me quite a drastic change in lifestyle, which will directly impact the life quality of my surroundings. Edited October 11, 2019 by action Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, action said: if your argument is that I'm turning my loved ones into climate refugees, then I think this necessitates further explanation. Could you put a value, in %, to my contribution to climate change over the past 50 years (I was born in the early 80s and climate change started since before then) Case of knowing just how much I'm personally contributing. If I know this number which you will provide me, then I can weigh the negative effects of my behaviour to the vast positive effects my behaviour has on myself, my wife, my son and everyone I love. Because you're asking me quite a drastic change in lifestyle, which will directly impact the life quality of my surroundings. Silly me; I think of humanity in terms of being my siblings. And if you meant literal biological bros and sisters then you have excluded the rest of your family. Shameful. This movement that you keep speaking about is after system change. Its not focused on the personal the way that you seem confused about. Why not educate yourself before speaking so much to these issues and movements? Edited October 11, 2019 by soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, action said: if your argument is that I'm turning my loved ones into climate refugees, then I think this necessitates further explanation. Could you put a value, in %, to my contribution to climate change over the past 50 years (I was born in the early 80s and climate change started since before then) Case of knowing just how much I'm personally contributing. Its you, its all you, take my word for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 10 minutes ago, soon said: This movement that you keep speaking about is after system change. Its not focused on the personal the way that you seem confused about. then I don't know what you're even blaming me of, or even what i'm supposed to do. All I take from this is, that somehow I'm a selfish bastard who is partly to blame for climate change. Well, I guess every day is a school day. I'll be a spectator then, and just see the madness unfold before my eyes, as I take another bite from my generous jack burger, and have another sip of my starbucks coffee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 Just now, action said: then I don't know what you're even blaming me of, or even what i'm supposed to do. All I take from this is, that somehow I'm a selfish bastard who is partly to blame for climate change. Well, I guess every day is a school day. I'll be a spectator then, and just see the madness unfold before my eyes, as I take another bite from my generous jack burger, and have another sip of my starbucks coffee. Huh???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, action said: then I don't know what you're even blaming me of, or even what i'm supposed to do. All I take from this is, that somehow I'm a selfish bastard who is partly to blame for climate change. Well, I guess every day is a school day. I'll be a spectator then, and just see the madness unfold before my eyes, as I take another bite from my generous jack burger, and have another sip of my starbucks coffee. This is completely random and feel free to tell me to fuck off if you like but where are you from? Just curious, sometimes you sound like you're from around here and then other times not. Here is England btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 9 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: This is completely random and feel free to tell me to fuck off if you like but where are you from? Just curious, sometimes you sound like you're from around here and then other times not. Here is England btw. what do you mean here is england? *looks around* fuck me, I thought I lived in belgium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 1 hour ago, action said: you can avoid climate change, like you can avoid death. as certain as death is, as certain it is that mankind will get extinct and it's increasingly likely this will be our own doing. but today, all is still fine. enjoy life, and be kind to your brothers and sisters. Extinction? Do you think that is the likely outcome? That's an extremely pessimistic outcome of the various scenarios of global warming outlined by climate scientists. The more realistic pessimistic forecast is that if we aren't able to reverse the trend, the average global surface temperature will increase by X degrees over Y years. This will result in big changes to local weather, including more extreme weather and draughts, resulting in the need to change agriculture and failed crops. This together with an increase in water levels will result in mass migrations (most people live at low altitudes near the coast). All of this will put tremendous strains on humanity and the likely outcome is more conflicts, wars, famine, and natural disasters. Additionally, ecosystems will be hit hard with an increase in the observed 6th mass extinction event. With ecosystems disrupted it will result in failed crops, further exacerbating the effects described above. In worst case scenarios this will lead to humanity going through a population bottleneck over the next centuries. But as a species we will likely survive, we benefit from being highly adaptable. But we will become weakened which makes us sensitive to other disasters and challenges that might arise at the same time, and this could in theory lead to our extinction. So thinking that there are two outcomes here, death or all is fine, is dangerous. In reality we are looking at a spectrum of outcomes where at best we only see a small increase in tension on our ecosystems, mass migration, and ensuing conflicts, at worst we will experience total collapse in ecosystems, extreme extinction event, and an immense humanitarian disaster as we have to adapt to an entirely new reality where large parts of earth has become barren and where the majority of living organism have died out (which it will take evolution millions of years to rectify). So we can do something about this. Any reduction in future global warming will make our future less bleak and make life for our descendants less difficult. Personally, I also think it would be utterly shameful if the only species that has evolved brains to be cognizant to a looming catastrophe, would be indifferent to it and selfishly only think about themselves. Not only out of love for our descendants, but for all other forms of life that we through our negligence and indifference will decimate or make extinct. We could be the protectors of life, but instead we might choose to become its death. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 33 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Extinction? Do you think that is the likely outcome? That's an extremely pessimistic outcome of the various scenarios of global warming outlined by climate scientists. The more realistic pessimistic forecast is that if we aren't able to reverse the trend, the average global surface temperature will increase by X degrees over Y years. This will result in big changes to local weather, including more extreme weather and draughts, resulting in the need to change agriculture and failed crops. This together with an increase in water levels will result in mass migrations (most people live at low altitudes near the coast). All of this will put tremendous strains on humanity and the likely outcome is more conflicts, wars, famine, and natural disasters. Additionally, ecosystems will be hit hard with an increase in the observed 6th mass extinction event. With ecosystems disrupted it will result in failed crops, further exacerbating the effects described above. In worst case scenarios this will lead to humanity going through a population bottleneck over the next centuries. But as a species we will likely survive, we benefit from being highly adaptable. But we will become weakened which makes us sensitive to other disasters and challenges that might arise at the same time, and this could in theory lead to our extinction. So thinking that there are two outcomes here, death or all is fine, is dangerous. In reality we are looking at a spectrum of outcomes where at best we only see a small increase in tension on our ecosystems, mass migration, and ensuing conflicts, at worst we will experience total collapse in ecosystems, extreme extinction event, and an immense humanitarian disaster as we have to adapt to an entirely new reality where large parts of earth has become barren and where the majority of living organism have died out (which it will take evolution millions of years to rectify). So we can do something about this. Any reduction in future global warming will make our future less bleak and make life for our descendants less difficult. Personally, I also think it would be utterly shameful if the only species that has evolved brains to be cognizant to a looming catastrophe, would be indifferent to it and selfishly only think about themselves. Not only out of love for our descendants, but for all other forms of life that we through our negligence and indifference will decimate or make extinct. We could be the protectors of life, but instead we might choose to become its death. You might be spot on, but you have no right to have this opinion or share this information because you take flights for your work . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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