2018 CD Leaks Discussion Thread **NO LINKS, NO ASKING / HINTING FOR LEAKS**

[NeonKinight]

Zodiac with vocals got me interested...

[axlvai]

Wheres the man who will buy this?. We can donate to him.

[Sausagebrain]

I found a few new interesting tidbits about the album on another forum. 

See the posts here by 'Key West', who claims to have worked in a studio where the album was being mastered:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/guns-n-roses-chinese-democracy-discussion.368226/page-13

I have no idea if 'Key West' is legit, hut here are his main points:

- There is another song which noone is yet aware of (I think) called '100 Cuban Skies' 

- Something was being prepared for a release in 2006

- The poster pours cold water on the idea that a trilogy of albums was planned. 

 

 

[Gordon Comstock]

6 minutes ago, Sausagebrain said:

I found a few new interesting tidbits about the album on another forum. 

See the posts here by 'Key West', who claims to have worked in a studio where the album was being mastered:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/guns-n-roses-chinese-democracy-discussion.368226/page-13

I have no idea if 'Key West' is legit, hut here are his main points:

- There is another song which noone is yet aware of (I think) called '100 Cuban Skies' 

- Something was being prepared for a release in 2006

- The poster pours cold water on the idea that a trilogy of albums was planned. 

 

 

 

Some interesting quotes:

"I have worked with Dan Monti from 2006 to July 2009 before returning to my country. A pic of those sheets with him were on my Motorola V3 many years ago."

 

"There were like 80 takes from vocal sketches from Rose that last some few minutes. I remember a song called "Silkworms", barely has any lyrics on it. A song called "Devious Bastard" in 2006 that last only one minute and a half with Rose screaming all over it."

 

"I've heard about that Chinese Democracy triloghy story. By the end of 2006, when Monti finished to write the final music to some of the Bucket's tunes, there were only like 23/24 songs with complete vocals and really FINISHED. Here is what I had in the top of my head:

The 14 released songs plus a reworked Oh My God. A screamo song called Silkworms (barely has any lyrics on it; seems unfinished) I remember a title called Atlas Shrugged, also leaked last year. Some of the Bucket songs have replaced those tunes, like "Shackler's Revenge" and others. Another title was called Elvis Presley, Oklahoma and Jackie Chan. I've never heard any of these songs. The famous The General and a curious title 100 Cuban Skies. Those 8/9 songs were slated as "B material". The best of the bunch has been released on november 2008.

Three albums for 23/24 songs? Yeah right. Already one disc has only 14 songs. I don't know what Rose had in mind in those years. That album is so old now. Maybe a bonus disc with those 8 unreleased songs is welcome."

[Sweersa]

7 minutes ago, Sausagebrain said:

I found a few new interesting tidbits about the album on another forum. 

See the posts here by 'Key West', who claims to have worked in a studio where the album was being mastered:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/guns-n-roses-chinese-democracy-discussion.368226/page-13

I have no idea if 'Key West' is legit, hut here are his main points:

- There is another song which noone is yet aware of (I think) called '100 Cuban Skies' 

- Something was being prepared for a release in 2006

- The poster pours cold water on the idea that a trilogy of albums was planned. 

 

 

100 Cuban Skies was mentioned in a thread here: (The poster met Axl rose, and was asked if he played any music that didn't make CD for him)

"Yeah one called 100 Cuban Skies about cigars... weird right? Showed me about 8 demos in his Ferrari - what a strange night - told me all about Rhiad and the Bedouins and what it was about... we talked about Izzy and his work ethic, Slash, Shannon Hoon... he was by himself and two buddies and I sat at his table at a bar called Sharkeys... the reason he invited us to sit with him is because I had heard The Blues (street of dreams) on a rock in rio 2002 bootleg - I asked about it and he was impressed I knew it"

Source:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/nicest-most-personable-musician-youve-met.447377/page-54

"Cuban Skies" was also listed on a "CD2" songlist that I have had for years, and it leaked recently. The songlist itself was from early 2008.

[ZODIAC]

If i remember correctly, cuban skies was first mentioned in that weird carebear video from MSL, a few years ago.....

[Blackstar]

Hmm... The guy says that by the end of 2006 there were 23/24 songs with full vocals, and says that Silkworms didn't have full vocals. However, in the list he posted earlier ("Songs stated in two parts for final mastering in 26 feb 2006") there are 26 different titles including Silkworms. If Silkworms was stated for final mastering, doesn't it mean it had full vocals? Something doesn't add up here. Then he listed 4 titles which he says didn't have vocals at the time (Feb. 26), and among them are TIL and Lies They Tell that made the album (so, if this information is taken in face value, the vocals on those two were recorded after that time). Shackler's Revenge (which he says in the other post that was added later) is not included in the "final mastering" list. 

So, based on his somewhat confusing posts, the songs that remain are not 8-9. If there were 26 songs with vocals in early 2006, according to his list, plus three that had vocals recorded later, there were 29 songs with vocals in 2008 (supposing Axl didn't record anything else) - of which 14 made the album and one was Oh My God. So there were 14 more completed songs.

 

 

[ZODIAC]

39 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Hmm... The guy says that by the end of 2006 there were 23/24 songs with full vocals, and says that Silkworms didn't have full vocals. However, in the list he posted earlier ("Songs stated in two parts for final mastering in 26 feb 2006") there are 26 different titles including Silkworms. If Silkworms was stated for final mastering, doesn't it mean it had full vocals? Something doesn't add up here. Then he listed 4 titles which he says didn't have vocals at the time (Feb. 26), and among them are TIL and Lies They Tell that made the album (so, if this information is taken in face value, the vocals on those two were recorded after that time). Shackler's Revenge (which he says in the other post that was added later) is not included in the "final mastering" list. 

So, based on his somewhat confusing posts, the songs that remain are not 8-9. If there were 26 songs with vocals in early 2006, according to his list, plus three that had vocals recorded later, there were 29 songs with vocals in 2008 (supposing Axl didn't record anything else) - of which 14 made the album and one was Oh My God. So there were 14 more completed songs.

 

 

14 minus

Atlas, hardschool, perhaps, state of grace 

[axlweave]

So if true what’s the title of the Piano ballad  is it Seven or something we have never heard of before 

[Sweersa]

Axl himself on the Eddie Trunk radio show in 2006 said they had about 2.5 albums of material. 

[Blackstar]

7 minutes ago, ZODIAC said:

14 minus

Atlas, hardschool, perhaps, state of grace 

His post was not about songs that haven't leaked, it was about how many songs Axl had besides what made CD, and he claims they couldn't fill even a second full album, only an EP. But the list he posted contradicts this claim.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Blackstar

[The Matinator]

7 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Hmm... The guy says that by the end of 2006 there were 23/24 songs with full vocals, and says that Silkworms didn't have full vocals. However, in the list he posted earlier ("Songs stated in two parts for final mastering in 26 feb 2006") there are 26 different titles including Silkworms. If Silkworms was stated for final mastering, doesn't it mean it had full vocals? Something doesn't add up here. Then he listed 4 titles which he says didn't have vocals at the time (Feb. 26), and among them are TIL and Lies They Tell that made the album (so, if this information is taken in face value, the vocals on those two were recorded after that time). Shackler's Revenge (which he says in the other post that was added later) is not included in the "final mastering" list. 

So, based on his somewhat confusing posts, the songs that remain are not 8-9. If there were 26 songs with vocals in early 2006, according to his list, plus three that had vocals recorded later, there were 29 songs with vocals in 2008 (supposing Axl didn't record anything else) - of which 14 made the album and one was Oh My God. So there were 14 more completed songs.

 

 

He could very well be describing either version of silkworms that leaked, neither of them have  lot of vocals compared to the live versions. I also think he might have been saying there were 8-9 songs that he deemed quality for release, bug who knows.

[The Holographic Universe]

Nobody would fabricate a story about Izzy being lazy. That’s a detail that would not deserve a lie. I believe it too. Izzy doesn’t care at all. 

[Voodoochild]

From what he heard in the leaks, it seems to me that there were a lot more stuff going on, but not everybody was working with everything they had.

If what this guys says is true, he was just working on the CD version that had no Bumble and/or Frank, which was their plan at least in early 2006. This is exactly the Andy Wallace mixes leaked on Antiquet were from that batch and didn't include Shacklers, Scraped and This I Love, nor any overdubs by Frank or Bumble. Also, for some reason I think Axl didn't really considered Catcher until Bumble came in and reworked it in late 2006 or early 2007. 

The other songs seems like a mix of some of the demos from the Village and one or two newer stuff, like The General. Still, it all dates from 2000 to 2003 at best. I believe Bucket's departure was a huge deal in the creativity process for the band, but there's no way the other guys would just sit on their previous ideas and rework them without bringing absolutely not a single new track post-Bucket era. 

[CAFC Nick]

1 hour ago, Voodoochild said:

From what he heard in the leaks, it seems to me that there were a lot more stuff going on, but not everybody was working with everything they had.

If what this guys says is true, he was just working on the CD version that had no Bumble and/or Frank, which was their plan at least in early 2006. This is exactly the Andy Wallace mixes leaked on Antiquet were from that batch and didn't include Shacklers, Scraped and This I Love, nor any overdubs by Frank or Bumble. Also, for some reason I think Axl didn't really considered Catcher until Bumble came in and reworked it in late 2006 or early 2007. 

The other songs seems like a mix of some of the demos from the Village and one or two newer stuff, like The General. Still, it all dates from 2000 to 2003 at best. I believe Bucket's departure was a huge deal in the creativity process for the band, but there's no way the other guys would just sit on their previous ideas and rework them without bringing absolutely not a single new track post-Bucket era. 

Oh Axl...  I know I've been pretty outspoken about how I think Ron's CITR solo is horribly misplaced in this tune, but my god how he can go from a Brian May one to that is beyond me.

In addition, would love to understand what alternative solos are essentially in the vault, e.g. Was there ever a Bucket or Robin Catcher solo? (in the years between Brian May and BBF) Was there ever a Richard Fortus SOD solo recorded? (he did outro solo live one Bucket had left). Interesting stuff!

[Sweersa]

31 minutes ago, CAFC Nick said:

Oh Axl...  I know I've been pretty outspoken about how I think Ron's CITR solo is horribly misplaced in this tune, but my god how he can go from a Brian May one to that is beyond me.

In addition, would love to understand what alternative solos are essentially in the vault, e.g. Was there ever a Bucket or Robin Catcher solo? (in the years between Brian May and BBF) Was there ever a Richard Fortus SOD solo recorded? (he did outro solo live one Bucket had left). Interesting stuff!

Good questions. I would give a lot to have a Shackler's close to the album version with the Bucket solo. (The one you can barely hear from the multitrack under Axl's vocals)

The village Shackler's is quite a bit different all around, but has a different Bucket solo as well but I do not think it's the same as the above.

I have heard whispers about a Catcher with a Bucket solo, I recall hearing it was similar, or based on May's solo, but with Bucket's feel of course. Apparently it was closer to May's solo than the one by Ron. I remember asking a hoarder about it, he claimed to have most stuff from RTB sessions, he said something like: "Who hasn't recorded a solo for Catcher?" when asked about alt Catcher solos, so he implied there were many different solos. Could have been BS, it was that "card" guy. 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Sweersa

[CAFC Nick]

Just now, Sweersa said:

Good questions. I would give a lot to have a Shackler's close to the album version with the Bucket solo. (The one you can barely hear from the multitrack under Axl's vocals)

The village Shackler's is quite a bit different all around, but has a different Bucket solo as well but I do not think it's the same as the above.

I have heard whispers about a Catcher with a Bucket solo, I recall hearing it was similar, or based on May's solo, but with Bucket's feel of course. Apparently it was closer to May's solo than the one by Ron.

Absolutely, the Shackler's one I imagine to be quite different to the Shankler solo and as you said the one that is inaudible sounds a lot different to quite a simple solo on Shankler's.

Going back to CITR, I checked the liner notes again and it actually lists a Robin solo which I'm quite surprised about - I imagine this is the quiet, under-the-vocals solo approx 3:40-3:55 @Voodoochild what do you think? Would absolutely love to hear all of the different solos by the different guitarists through the ages, would make a really intriguing listen!

7. CATCHER IN THE RYE
(Rose, Tobias)

Drums: Brain
Bass: Tommy Stinson
Guitars: Ron “Bumblefoot” Thal, Robin Finck, Paul Tobias
Keyboards: Chris Pitman, Dizzy Reed
Piano: Axl Rose
Guitar Solos: Ron “Bumblefoot” Thal, Robin Finck, Ron “Bumblefoot” Thal
Background Vocals: Axl Rose
Vocals: Axl Rose

 

[Voodoochild]

49 minutes ago, CAFC Nick said:

Was there ever a Bucket or Robin Catcher solo? (in the years between Brian May and BBF) Was there ever a Richard Fortus SOD solo recorded? (he did outro solo live one Bucket had left). Interesting stuff!

I'm pretty sure there was a Robin Catcher solo, as Brian May joined because Axl was too attached to Robin's works. 

About SOD: I believe the snippet we hear in the Boston 2002 promo (not the TV version, but the radio spot) has Richard's version of the outro solo.

13 minutes ago, CAFC Nick said:

Absolutely, the Shackler's one I imagine to be quite different to the Shankler solo and as you said the one that is inaudible sounds a lot different to quite a simple solo on Shankler's.

Going back to CITR, I checked the liner notes again and it actually lists a Robin solo which I'm quite surprised about - I imagine this is the quiet, under-the-vocals solo approx 3:40-3:55 @Voodoochild what do you think? Would absolutely love to hear all of the different solos by the different guitarists through the ages, would make a really intriguing listen!

You're right about Robin - it's the lead following Axl's vocals. But it also complements Bumblefoot solo - Robin enters at 2:47 in the album version. You can hear it too in the Brian May demo. 

[Sosso]

I would have loved to hear a Catcher solo from Robin.

[ToonGuns]

4 hours ago, Voodoochild said:

I believe Bucket's departure was a huge deal in the creativity process for the band. 

100%. He is a true "artist", a creative genius.

And while the creativity in the band at least appears to have dried up, Bucket released 300+ albums.

[Sweersa]

13 minutes ago, ToonGuns said:

100%. He is a true "artist", a creative genius.

And while the creativity in the band at least appears to have dried up, Bucket released 300+ albums.

I'm still hopeful a lot of his contributions through GN'R see the light of day, officially or otherwise. 

ETA: Robin's too.

As many others have said, it is a shame the pre-reunion lineup only managed to get one album out. 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Sweersa

[ToonGuns]

22 minutes ago, Sweersa said:

I'm still hopeful a lot of his contributions through GN'R see the light of day, officially or otherwise. 

ETA: Robin's too.

As many others have said, it is a shame the pre-reunion lineup only managed to get one album out. 

Fingers and toes crossed! Would love to hear more. Release a Buckethead "In Search Of The" style boxset if needed.

[Sweersa]

I'm not sure exactly how this would work, if at all, and it would probably depend on several factors... but I am wondering would a band like GN'R keep several mixes of the same song, so they could properly master a "discarded" mix for official release?

In other words, if the band wanted to release a 1999, 2002, 2006, etc. version of a song, the entire album, or a collection of songs for whatever reason, could they? Obviously they probably have piles of CDs full of rough mixes (as we know) and computers full of the same with MP3, but out of whatever system or software they use for the source materials for mastering, could they or as a practice are older versions maintained for possible future releases, or do they update the existing "pro tools" session or whatever it is without archival backups, or the like.

Just curious! I'm sure someone with insight in the industry would know. 

[BreakDown2014]

4 hours ago, Voodoochild said:

I'm pretty sure there was a Robin Catcher solo, as Brian May joined because Axl was too attached to Robin's works. 

About SOD: I believe the snippet we hear in the Boston 2002 promo (not the TV version, but the radio spot) has Richard's version of the outro solo.

You're right about Robin - it's the lead following Axl's vocals. But it also complements Bumblefoot solo - Robin enters at 2:47 in the album version. You can hear it too in the Brian May demo. 

The SOD snippet sounds great, and it definitely  has Richard solo on it. I hope we get that version someday

[DTJ80]

3 hours ago, Sweersa said:

I'm not sure exactly how this would work, if at all, and it would probably depend on several factors... but I am wondering would a band like GN'R keep several mixes of the same song, so they could properly master a "discarded" mix for official release?

In other words, if the band wanted to release a 1999, 2002, 2006, etc. version of a song, the entire album, or a collection of songs for whatever reason, could they? Obviously they probably have piles of CDs full of rough mixes (as we know) and computers full of the same with MP3, but out of whatever system or software they use for the source materials for mastering, could they or as a practice are older versions maintained for possible future releases, or do they update the existing "pro tools" session or whatever it is without archival backups, or the like.

Just curious! I'm sure someone with insight in the industry would know. 

I’d imagine most bands would keep each version where possible for deluxe editions etc - even more likely if it’s digital files.

All depends on who is curating/looking after this stuff for a band. GNR may be a bit ‘hit n miss’ as evidenced by the fact reels of demos from the 90’s were found in a lock-up!

That said - I think it’s pretty nailed on that CD-era stuff is there in mass amounts. If we believe that Tom Zutaut really does have hundreds of discs.....you’d imagine Axl will have copies of these too.