Open Letter to Axl & my opinon about the CD Era

[D..]

Just wanted to share a few thoughts with you, and with Axl, if he still reads boards. I appreciate this forum & most of you here, great discussions have happened there, and Russ is doing a great job at handling things.

That being said, my history post speaks for itself: I've mainly been an Axl supporter, hardcore supporter I might say. The following is just my opinion, of course.

I had big doubts about the reunion and didn't feel right about it, because to me it meant no CD II happening, and basically ignoring a lot of what went down during that CD Era, what Axl had to say on Slash, and doing a complete 180. But then again, that was just my opinion, and it's great that the guys made peace. That sends a good message to humanity. But I wasn't wrong in my predictions and I hate to be right on those things. Nothing happened in almost 4 years except the same shows, mediocre Axl vocals, and absolutely no new material.

 

Now, with all those leaks from the CD Vault, and since we're almost done with the 20 CD locker saga... It gives a completely new insight of what really down.

Does anyone recall when Axl said, in a 1999 interview with Kurt Loder: "We've been working on... I don't know... 70 songs?"

Many here speculated Axl didn't have much going on in the vault and this was bullshit. 

 

Well truth is, it was half bullshit. It wasn't 70 "songs". It was maybe 70 instrumentals, with a third tops having vocals. The band sure was productive as far as musicians go.

As for the band singer? What a joke.

When State of Grace, Hard School, Perhaps and Atlas Shrugged leaked, I actually told myself "hey, I knew it, Axl had been working hard on this stuff, he had saved stuff!"

Then the rest dropped, little by little. All those great instrumentals, most feeling finished. That "Me & Elvis" fucking masterpiece. And no single vocals on them. Nothing. He sure knew how to pick the right musicians and expected the best from them, but as for himself? Wasn't expecting the best from himself. At all.

One can just admire what the band had to offer, the variety of genres they explored, their creativity, their commitment to the mission. And why so many eventually quit. Those guys (Tobias, Finck, Buckethead & the others) were productive and talented as hell. They sure were superior to the original line-up with Slash & Izzy for one thing at least: they knew how to explore a wide variety of styles, not just old school hard rock (not even going to talk technically).

 

As for Axl? He didn't work nearly as much as the other guys from the band, nor as he led us to believe. You have to take two things in consideration here:

1) His vocal takes are untouched (except very minor changes on the blues ending for example) from 1999-2001 to 2008. That tells a lot. On the other hand, the band recorded variants, there were loads of takes, redoing everything, many musicians covering other musicians parts, hell's work.

2) He sings on a third of the instrumentals. 

Now, one could argue his vocal takes were perfect to begin with. That was what I thought originally, because on most of CD 2008, he sounds great. I've always loved his different vocal approach. But then, when you listen to "Eye on You", "State of Grace" or "Perhaps": do those sound like definitive vocals? To me it doesn't. It feels half assed. Doesn't feel complete. And I could argue that now that I think of it, he should have redone vocals for CD 2008. The band did go through the trouble. Why not Axl?

One could also argue he picked his favorite tracks to sing on. I sure can't buy into that now. How the fuck did he think Silkworms and Rhiad were better picks than "Me & Elvis", "Zodiac", "Quick Song", "Oklahoma", and so many other instrumentals of great quality? It just blows my mind.

 

With that taken in consideration, when Axl offered the song to that Bob Ezrin guy and was told he only had 3 good songs tops and sure could do better... Now that we've heard all of that, I think Ezrin wasn't the fuckhead we made him to be after all.

 

Put yourself in a producer's shoes for a sec. You're given songs from the Rough CD 1 mix. Honestly, fanboy aside, how many A-list songs are there on there, objectively? 3 tops. TWAT didn't sound as good as the definitive 2008 version. As for some songs on there like Prostitue, was it ever going to be a hit really? No.

Not even sure one could consider any as real A-list song (beside The Blues) that would have been a guaranteed hit back then without Slash to sell it alongside Axl.

Now, regarding what was in the vault instrumentally, just imagine if Axl had laid vocals on all of them, and had worked his ass off on every vocal take to make it sound perfect & polished. How is State of Grace this half assed? Axl sure could do a lot better back then if you just take Street of Dreams for example. 

If he DID have so many full songs completed, how many songs would have Bob Ezrin judged worth? Surely more than 3. How in the hell could a producer accept garbage like Silkworms & Rhiad when there were crazy potential like Soul Monster? And how in hell would a producer think it could work when branded "Guns N' Roses". You had OKLAHOMA AXL! OKLAHOMA! Now that would have worked! GOD FUCKING DAMMIT!

 

This whole thing just blows my mind. To think Axl had this band working for him non stop coming with so many instrumental gems, some of which were totally in the vibe of Use Your Illusion and some taking it to the next level (and not some idiotic electro BS which made no sense either for this band or coherence with the band's legacy). And what did he do with that? Close to nothing.

 

Was he really that sensitive when he was turned down by Universal? Come on man. Axl the legend who rants about everything was hurt because Silkworms & Rhiad suck when you have goddamn gems to work on in the vault? WORK YOUR ASS OFF!!!! It's not like there was nothing and the musicians were incompetent. 

 

I also thought Axl chose poor songs like Rhiad, If The World and Scraped to save some of his best for CD II. I originally thought there was not much going on that the CD 2008 songs and some other songs like The General & stuff that he would save for a follow up. I was cool with that. Why not since apparently, the production was hell.

 

But really, just from 1999 to 2001, he had soooo many options to choose beside those 3. Thing is, he most probably never bothered recording for all of them. Maybe Soul Monster, Zodiac, Seven & Oklahoma. As for the rest, I'm pretty sure he never gave Devious Bastard a chance, never completed Quick Song, and so on. I wouldn't call those tracks genius either, but sure far better picks than what we got on CD 2008.

Instead, they went on overproducing shits like Rhiad for almost a decade. They butchered songs that were already impeccable to begin with and only needed a proper master like The Blues, Catcher & others. Why not just give the other instrumental a proper vocal take while NOT adding stupid layers and replacing perfect musician's work like Brian May's, and then turn everything to Universal. Imagine how things would have turned differently.

 

Now if you couple that with whatever Axl has been doing since 2011, and especially from 2016 til now (except the glorious AC/DC tour), I think it's safe to conclude Axl has been lazy as hell, has completely failed himself, has not seen the potential that was there, was not objective about his own self, has given up on things a long time ago, and that most of what went down is on him.

His own goddamn fault. Not Ezrin. Not bandmembers who quit. Not "I don't know what oh god life is so hard". Fuck that shit.

 

How can you show up this untrained to a gig like last saturday? What went down when he showed up for Rock in Rio 2011? How can you have so many goddamn instrumentals with potential and do NOTHING with them for years while the rest of your band sacrifice everything?

 

I find this situation absurd. And the management at no point said "hey, why not make a boxset with all this vault, it will sure please the ones who supported CD & the 2002/2006/2007/2009/2010/2011/2012/2013/2014 tours for all this time". They had all the time in the world to do it. They didn't.

 

And Axl? Zero communication. All efforts spared. No vocals on most instrumental in 2001. Unacceptable.

 

Bottomline is: Axl fucked it up, alone. It's fucking crazy. He had it all and sat on it, crying about whatever. Dammit.

[seely]

A lot of assumptions there. Who knows how much other stuff was worked on before and after that time. Just because instrumental versions are all that leaked doesn't mean that lyrics aren't done and vocals aren't there on other versions.

[Gunnerfan_rus]

Why do you think that you know everything and have heard everything simply by some CDs from one locker?

What if there are another 150 CDs?

Or you really think that that's all that band did during those years? We just have a small portion of background things went to our hands.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Gunnerfan_rus

[estrangedtwat]

Even if Axl lurked here, which I doubt, there's no way he'll read that wall of text.  I didn't read it either.

 

But fuck it...let's pretend Axl really is lurking here and reading shit we write....in that case I just wanna say "sorry" for saying you were full of shit for 20 years and had only recorded the stuff that was released.  I see now that I was wrong.

[©GnrPersia]

"Truth is the truth hurts"

[Axl_morris]

What a load of self centered nonsense.

[D..]

2 minutes ago, seely said:

A lot of assumptions there. Who knows how much other stuff was worked on before and after that time. Just because instrumental versions are all that leaked doesn't mean that lyrics aren't done and vocals aren't there on other versions.

Out of so many CD's and different versions from the same time period, I think it's safe to assume all of the vocals that were recorded are on there. It's possible Axl knew how to sing some of them (like Oklahoma) and had lyrics prepared, but he didn't record it.

[D..]

3 minutes ago, Gunnerfan_rus said:

Why do you think that you know everything and have heard everything simply by some CDs from one locker?

What if there are another 150 CDs?

Or you really think that that's all that band did during those years? We just have a small portion of background things went to our hands.

"That's all that band did during those years". That's already a lot, instrumentally speaking, for such a short time period (1999-2001). I do think that's pretty much it for those years. 

[guitarpatch]

For example. Oh My God isn’t included on these discs. We have no idea how many songs had vocals by the year 2000. Let alone what he had completed afterwards 

Also at the very least even if they were working on around 20 songs for an album during that period, that’s not a bad number and pretty typical for most artists 

[action]

lol, imagine criticising an artist for not singing on songs, that were leaked without the artist's consent. This is some new levels of fan entitlement.

he did release chinese democracy, arguably the best of the bunch of songs, or what he thought so.

If Axl doesn't release a single song anymore, ever, then that's his good right. It will be a pity and a disapointment, sure, but we've got no right to criticise an artist for that decision.

[jamillos]

Like said above, this is just stuff from 1999–2000/2001. There could be tons of other material as far as we know. E.g. there is that TIL version with Axl’s divine raspy vocals (the best I’ve heard from him to date, studio or live) that no one knows when it was recorded. Then the newer guys like BBF worked on something, and Axl had plenty of time in those idle times between tour legs to work on new material. This whole bunch is really just a snippet, nothing to base huge conclusions on. 

[Cosmo]

You're right, D...

[Gunnerfan_rus]

4 minutes ago, D.. said:

"That's all that band did during those years". That's already a lot, instrumentally speaking, for such a short time period (1999-2001). I do think that's pretty much it for those years. 

I don't think that's a lot for a huge band wrighting not their first album. Bon Jovi make around 50 demos for each album for example.

[adamsapple]

I would have loved for the Bucket/Finck lineup to continue touring and release at least three albums.

Didn't happen.

Time to move on.

[username05]

5 minutes ago, action said:

lol, imagine criticising an artist for not singing on songs, that were leaked without the artist's consent. This is some new levels of fan entitlement.

he did release chinese democracy, arguably the best of the bunch of songs, or what he thought so.

If Axl doesn't release a single song anymore, ever, then that's his good right. It will be a pity and a disapointment, sure, but we've got no right to criticise an artist for that decision.

agreed. One would think that ppl would understand that artist integrity comes first... and that they create art for them self, and not for audience. 
Those who don't should really read Atlas Shrugged and The fountainhead, Axl would have the right to burn it... because its his creation. 

 

excerpt from The Fountainhead movie (predecessor to Atlas Shrugged by same author, Ayn Rand)

Howard Roark: defense (of Axl):

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by username05

[D..]

4 minutes ago, jamillos said:

Like said above, this is just stuff from 1999–2000/2001. There could be tons of other material as far as we know. E.g. there is that TIL version with Axl’s divine raspy vocals (the best I’ve heard from him to date, studio or live) that no one knows when it was recorded. Then the newer guys like BBF worked on something, and Axl had plenty of time in those idle times between tour legs to work on new material. This whole bunch is really just a snippet, nothing to base huge conclusions on. 

Conclusions on that time period only (1999-2001). Who knows, maybe he did record a lot after that. There are talks of 40/50 unheard songs with full vocals. Who knows.

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough in my post (& sorry for my approximative english) but my point was, he could have released an album in 2001 had he laid down vocals on most of the instrumental stuff & wasn't so butthurt about Ezrin's advice/take. Instead, it was a clusterfuck for another 7 years and we ended up with CD 2008. And nothing since then. 11 years without a single official new song. Blows my mind.

Edited September 25, 2019 by D..

[guitarpatch]

3 minutes ago, Gunnerfan_rus said:

I don't think that's a lot for a huge band wrighting not their first album. Bon Jovi make around 50 demos for each album for example.

When you work with Desmond Child, it’s a bit easier....

[StrangerInThisTown]

lol @ being pissed off about artists not singing on recordings that were never supposed to be heard by people. If Axl really liked the song why would he NOT have sang on it? It is logical to assume he had his reasons just like everybody else has his reasons and liked other songs more. That said those instrumentals are great, and I'd like to know why he choose the tracks he did for CD.

Edited September 25, 2019 by StrangerInThisTown

[Rapidfire]

What got leaked recently were from the period between 1999 to 2001, am I right? Im pretty sure a lot of them now have vocals on them, as well as a lot of new songs which we don't even know about. A creative process is not as straightforward as hard labour. By having a good instrumental does not guarantee a good song if Axl has no inspiration for it.

Was listening to The Black Keys on the Joe Rogan Podcast and the drummer had a pretty interesting insight where he spoke about how record companies screw over bands by shelving their records and giving suggestions for the songs for their own agenda. I'll recommand you guys go have a listen.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Rapidfire
Spelling

[YOUCOULDBEMINE.]

One thing I agree with are the untouched vocals. To me, Axl sounded better in 2006-2008 than he did in 99. He butchered November Rain on Live ERA, Estranged goes from UYI Axl to CD Axl, and expects us not to hear it? If I listen to his vocals on those Sebastian Bach songs, he sounded mean. His bit on Stuck Inside sounded better than most of his CD vocals. 

I am an Axl supporter as well, but the reason I got into GN'R were mostly those raw raspy vocals. If only he recorded some stuff in 2010, that was the last time he sounded like himself. I can come up with 100+ moments from that tour where he sounded mean as fuck. He lost it somewhere. He went from 2001 Axl to 2006 Axl, which was an improvement vocalwise. Then in 2009-2010 he went even further, sounding fucking amazing for a guy who seemed to have lost it 10 years earlier. There was this acoustic set in (I believe) Paris back in 2010, where he belted out Catcher In The Rye, full rasp. That outro verse sounded so fucking good. 

I miss that sound. The last time he brought it was with AC/DC. I just can't see him getting it back. At least not on stage, there's a lot that can be done in the studio.

But still, I support this band. I'm from 1989, by the time I discovered GN'R they were way beyond AFD and UYI, with the original guys long gone. I'm happy to have had the chance to see at least 3 of the 5 together on stage. And sure, of course I hear Axl struggle with his vocals, but I take what I can get with this band. Which are +/-3 hour shows. They even brought back Coma  and DTJ and decided to both release and play Shadow Of Your Love. 

But I can understand where you're coming from. You do have to understand that these leaks come from 1 era. Who knows how many of those instrumentals got vocals in the years that followed?

[guitarpatch]

1 minute ago, D.. said:

Conclusions on that time period only (1999-2001). Who knows, maybe he did record a lot after that. There are talks of 40/50 unheard songs with full vocals. Who knows.

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough in my post (& sorry for my approximative english) but my point was, he could have released an album in 2001 had he laid down vocals on most of the instrumental stuff & wasn't so butthurt about Ezrin's advice/take. Instead, it was a clusterfuck for another 7 years and we ended up with CD 2008. And nothing since then. 11 years without a single official new song. Blows my mind.

You have no idea how Axl took that. You also have no idea what other forces contributed to the delays. Maybe one day we get the whole story 

[jamillos]

3 minutes ago, D.. said:

Conclusions on that time period only (1999-2001). Who knows, maybe he did record a lot after that. There are talks of 40/50 unheard songs with full vocals. Who knows.

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough in my post (& sorry for my approximative english) but my point was, he could have released an album in 2001 had it laid down vocals on most of the instrumental stuff & wasn't so butthurt about Ezrin's advice/take. Instead, it was a clusterfuck for another 7 years and we ended up with CD 2008. And nothing since then. 11 years without a single official new song. Blows my mind.

I’m more bummed about the fact that given the amount of material they had, they didn’t release a sequel in say three to four years, around 2012, instead of the continual touring. Same time, same channel, next year... yeah. 

[megaguns1982]

Hi Axle.... new music me want now.... me sick....

 

ooooh he card read good

[D..]

5 minutes ago, jamillos said:

I’m more bummed about the fact that given the amount of material they had, they didn’t release a sequel in say three to four years, around 2012, instead of the continual touring. Same time, same channel, next year... yeah. 

It's the whole package really if you recoup everything.

Nonetheless, always nice to read everyone's opinion on this. I have my point of view and it's harsh. Deserves other harsh point of views hehe.

[Axl_morris]

 I think when anyone has the audacity and becomes disillusioned enough to "write an open letter", they should step away from the keyboard, get some fresh air and discover a new hobby.