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Just now, ZoSoRose said:

Alright,  Action, I'll bite without insults. You saod science should be kept out of politics. How would anything ever progress? Science is the only certainty 

politics can interfere with science, or scientific research. North korea publishes scientific research, no doubt. So does russia. Hell, even trump no doubt has his own team of experts, trying to convince people that climate change is imaginary. Hitler, tried to base his racial theory on scientific research, and had a large number of scientists working for him.

Science is a good thing, it is good in principle. When honest, and when devoid of any political intervention, science is at it's best.

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What the fuck do they know? If I'm looking for advice from a rock band on how viruses are transmitted I will ask Queen thank you very much.

The mother of my aunt just died from covid19 in the Netherlands. No funeral and she can't go there. This situation is so fucked up.

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1 minute ago, action said:

politics can interfere with science, or scientific research. North korea publishes scientific research, no doubt. So does russia. Hell, even trump no doubt has his own team of experts, trying to convince people that climate change is imaginary. Hitler, tried to base his racial theory on scientific research, and had a large number of scientists working for him.

Science is a good thing, it is good in principle. When honest, and when devoid of any political intervention, science is at it's best.

That is politics, then. Science is natural law and the process of discovering it is the scientific method. If politicians make horseshit as they often do, that isnt science

Also, I am sorry I was mean, I just thought that initial post was very dumb so I responded as such

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20 minutes ago, action said:

this is actually a good characteristic of you. 

Yes, it is good. Don't know how accurate, though. 

But yeah, I don't mind spending some extra time to people who genuinely are interested in hearing my views and aren't just trolling. I wasn't sure about you for some time. 

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15 hours ago, action said:

arguing with scientists is like bashing your head to the wall.

"look at this website", they say. "see, it contains proof of this or that, the experts are all in agreement bla bla bla".

try to use your common sense against such reasoning.

I'm wrong, because a website tells me I'm wrong. because an expert makes some political statement.

because experts can't be wrong, right?

having said that, there isn't much room for debate anyway. there's the numbers, there's the experts, and then there is your own eyes and ears that contradict much of what they say. There is no point in arguing, and I don't want this post to be the start of another pointless yes or no game. I am toroughly confused and I just want this epidemy to be over and done with. It's genuinly wearing me down, and I'm not even infected.

The thing is, there will always be another new virus, another new pandemic. Whether its because of a mistake in a research laboratory, a virus mutating to survive, the easy travel accessibility between countries, or any number of other reasons. 

It's good to take precautions during the outbreak times, which is what we are in now. But we also can't live our lives forever in a bubble either. 

I suggest keeping a bottle of wildcrafted Oil of Oregano on hand. Not sure if the scientific journals or the fda advocate for it, but do your own research, use it for yourself, and draw your own conclusions. 

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11 minutes ago, action said:

politics can interfere with science, or scientific research. North korea publishes scientific research, no doubt. So does russia. Hell, even trump no doubt has his own team of experts, trying to convince people that climate change is imaginary. Hitler, tried to base his racial theory on scientific research, and had a large number of scientists working for him.

Science is a good thing, it is good in principle. When honest, and when devoid of any political intervention, science is at it's best.

But this has nothing to do with your outright denial and rejection of data on covid-19 fatality rates. This is you not accepting established facts because you don't understand how science, or society, works. 

3 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

The thing is, there will always be another new virus, another new pandemic. Whether its because of a mistake in a research laboratory, a virus mutating to survive, the easy travel accessibility between countries, or any number of other reasons. 

It's good to take precautions during the outbreak times, which is what we are in now. But we also can't live our lives forever in a bubble either. 

I suggest keeping a bottle of wildcrafted Oil of Oregano on hand. Not sure if the scientific journals or the fda advocate for it, but do your own research, use it for yourself, and draw your own conclusions. 

You got so close to getting a like from me. If you had just ended in time :lol:

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A few days ago: we're totally ready for this! No problem, no panic! We've taken precautions!

Since yesterday: we're running out of mouthmasks and the chemicals to test people.

Seems like we were completely ready to tackle this then! You can't blame people for being suspicious to be honest. Other countries have done far more extensive testing than we have. How can we run out of mouthmasks and tests in only a few days?

Plus we don't have the infrastructure to make our own mouthmasks in Belgium.

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1 minute ago, Lio said:

We don't have the infrastructure to make our own mouthmasks in Belgium.

You do have the finest beers in the world though which is far more important. :lol: 

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1 minute ago, Dazey said:

You do have the finest beers in the world though which is far more important. :lol: 

We need those to make us forget how incompetent we are in almost any other field.

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3 minutes ago, Dazey said:

You do have the finest beers in the world though which is far more important. :lol: 

They used to, thats for sure :P Next time youre Stateside head north of the border and Ill change your mind :headbang::lol:

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5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

ou got so close to getting a like from me. If you had just ended in time :lol:

The Oil of Oregano? :lol: 

I'm a staunch supporter, and that's ok if not everyone is. But it just might be helpful to some. :)

 

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1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

But this has nothing to do with your outright denial and rejection of data on covid-19 fatality rates. This is you not accepting established facts because you don't understand how science, or society, works. 

 

'outright denial' is an unfair accusation you lay on me. I misread a graph earlier, which is true, and I apologize. Then, when the record was set straight, I made my reservations clear about the validity of the numbers. You have to note, that many of these numbers were provided by the chinese government, which are proven liars with how they wanted to silence the outbreak in the first place.

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6 minutes ago, action said:

'outright denial' is an unfair accusation you lay on me. I misread a graph earlier, which is true, and I apologize. Then, when the record was set straight, I made my reservations clear about the validity of the numbers. You have to note, that many of these numbers were provided by the chinese government, which are proven liars with how they wanted to silence the outbreak in the first place.

But whether you trust data provided by the Chinese government -- and which are for the record apparently trusted by WHO and other international bodies of health -- has nothing to do with your ramblings against science. 

And your denial of the data doesn't limit itself to just that one graph which you misread, you have throughout this thread written about not trusting science yet trusting "common sense" and what your "eyes and ears" tell you. You have demonstrated a profound distrust of facts and have rejected them consistently when they have stood in the way of your own decisions that this disease is a danger to you.

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6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

But whether you trust data provided by the Chinese government -- and which are for the record apparently trusted by WHO and other international bodies of health -- has nothing to do with your ramblings against science. 

And your denial of the data doesn't limit itself to just that one graph which you misread, you have throughout this thread written about not trusting science yet trusting "common sense" and what your "eyes and ears" tell you. You have demonstrated a profound distrust of facts and have rejected them consistently when they have stood in the way of your own decisions that this disease is a danger to you.

I want to believe though. I'm just naturally sceptic and cautious, in everything I do.

when I use my eyes and ears, I'm basically doing scientific research myself. Every scientific experiment ever done, is based on observation. What can not be observed, can not be explained (black holes), what is observed can refute an older theory (earth moving around the sun). There is no reason why my eyes, my observations, would be of less value as an observation made by a scientist. My clock runs different than the clock of a scientist (see the relativity of time), for example. Absolute truth, is something that can never be achieved. Only approximation is possible. On the most fundamental levels, scientists can not agree about the state of a particle. Different experiments yield different results. 

Certainly in the case of this virus, where knowledge is limited and our understanding changes daily (such as with the recent mutation of the virus), constant attention is needed, and what was true yesterday may not be true anymore today.

Add in political intervention in the publication of data, and you might wonder what value do graphs anyway. That is an evaluation that everyone of us has to make, and I'm not obliging anyone to follow my interpretation. My interpretation is as valid as anyone elses.

That is the extent of my sceptism, and my confusion. The life of people is at stake, and that is not something that should be taken lightly.

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Just now, action said:

I want to believe though. I'm just naturally sceptic and cautious, in everything I do.

To the extent that you has expressed a belief that the entire scientific community and every government across the world is collaborating in on some global conspiracy to keep the actual death rates for children unknown so as to not cause panic. Your words. That goes beyond what most people would consider sensible skepticism and caution, and is well beyond and into the land of the the nuts.

 

3 minutes ago, action said:

when I use my eyes and ears, I'm basically doing scientific research myself.

No, you aren't.

 

3 minutes ago, action said:

Every scientific experiment ever done, is based on observation. What can not be observed, can not be explained (black holes)

But black holes are observed. Not with the eyes, but with other instruments.

 

4 minutes ago, action said:

There is no reason why my eyes, my observations, would be of less value as an observation made by a scientist. 

Oh, I can think of many! But most importantly, the observations done by scientists are done using strict experimental rules and the data are then published in peer-reviewed papers allowing the scientific community to verify the results and build onto it. You going round using your eyes is something very different than science. And this just underlines the fact that you know so very little about science.

 

6 minutes ago, action said:

 Certainly in the case of this virus, where knowledge is limited and our understanding changes daily (such as with the recent mutation of the virus)

But our understanding doesn't change daily. You make it seem like one day the fatality rate for children is 80 % and then next day it is 0.0 %. Which is rubbish. Since we started researching this virus our understanding has just gotten better. Our data-sets have become larger and thus more precise. Since day one, zero kids have died from this virus. This means that the fatality rate for kids has remained at 0.0 %.This hasn't changed at all. As I have said repeatdled, I do expect this to raise somewhat, but it is extremely unlikely it will go above 0.1 % in western countries. That is just simple statistical analysis. 

 

9 minutes ago, action said:

constant attention is needed, and what was true yesterday may not be true anymore today.

Constant attention is needed, and trust me, this disease is getting more attention than anything else at the moment. Do you doubt this, too?

 

10 minutes ago, action said:

Add in political intervention in the publication of data, and you might wonder what value do graphs anyway. 

No, but I am not a conspiracy theorist. I find the idea that these numbers are faked incredibly ridiculous. And it is weird coming from someone who professes to be "skeptical" and "cautious". Here's is how it really is: You are skeptical and cautious to anything that challenges your own half-assed, conspiracy theories. And you are extremely open and accommodating to ridiculous brainfarts you might have.

 

12 minutes ago, action said:

That is the extent of my sceptism, and my confusion. The life of people is at stake, and that is not something that should be taken lightly.

No one is taken anything lightly. But in addition to fighting an epidemic we also have people like you who go round and spread insane conspiracy theories while refuting facts and data. You are part of the problem and very far from being part of the solution.

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2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

You are part of the problem and very far from being part of the solution.

I have not asked for this outbreak, I don't have solutions for this nor do I feel I need to provide them.

People like me, keep other people awake. People should trust their own observations. 

Immanuel kant has put it in this way: "Enlightenment is man's release from his self-incurred tutelage. Tutelage is man's inability to make use of his understanding wirthout direction from another. Self-incurred is this tutelage when its cause lies not in lack of reason but in lack of resolution and courage to use it without direction from another. Sapere aude!. Have courage to use your own reason!"

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2 minutes ago, action said:

I have not asked for this outbreak, I don't have solutions for this nor do I feel I need to provide them.

No, I think I speak for everyone when I say it's okay, you don't need to provide any of your solutions. We already know you use face masks despite having learnt they likely only increase your risk of attracting the virus and that you considered keeping your boy at home from school despite recommendations. If that's on level of what you can bring of solutions then no thanks, I have had about as much as I can stomach.

But the problem isn't what you do to yourself, because I couldn't really care less about you, but the fact that you have said your family is also swept up in hysteria. And I find it hard to think this isn't partly your fault. What we absolutely don't need, is hysterical people making bad decisions and spreading inane conspiracy theories, because that will result in more people being fearful, more people worrying when they shouldn't, and more people doing stupid things. And so far, this disease directly only affects a few people (a few hundreds in Europe have contracted the disease), yet indirectly, through fear and hysteria, it affects many, many, many more. It is like a disease upon the disease. A disease that is just in peoples' mind but can make them just as sick as a minor respiratory infection. And you are carrying this disease and seem to be hellbent on spreading it to others.

10 minutes ago, action said:

Immanuel kant has put it in this way: "Enlightenment is man's release from his self-incurred tutelage. Tutelage is man's inability to make use of his understanding wirthout direction from another. Self-incurred is this tutelage when its cause lies not in lack of reason but in lack of resolution and courage to use it without direction from another. Sapere aude!. Have courage to use your own reason!"

I think I have said it before, but all philosophers can just go straight and fuck themselves. 

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11 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

 

But the problem isn't what you do to yourself, because I couldn't really care less about you, but the fact that you have said your family is also swept up in hysteria. And I find it hard to think this isn't partly your fault.

every decision in our household is made in mutual agreement. Our son is sick with fever and can not attend school anyway.

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What we absolutely don't need, is hysterical people making bad decisions and spreading inane conspiracy theories, because that will result in more people being fearful, more people worrying when they shouldn't, and more people doing stupid things. And so far, this disease directly only affects a few people (a few hundreds in Europe have contracted the disease), yet indirectly, through fear and hysteria, it affects many, many, many more. It is like a disease upon the disease. A disease that is just in peoples' mind but can make them just as sick as a minor respiratory infection. And you are carrying this disease and seem to be hellbent on spreading it to others.

my decision to let my kid home from school, which I took last sunday evening, has been made by the italian government yesterday when they closed schools in the whole of italy. 300 million children stay at home from school now, and that is coming from a government which is as much concerned with economic growth as possible. Are they hysterical too? Am I hysterical because I took the same decision? Again: common sense is my guidance, not hysteria.

I have actually bet with my wife, when belgium is going to follow with closing schools. My bet was on tomorrow, but granted there are too few deaths in belgium (they pretend as if deaths in other countries are non existent) for that to go into practise. The coming days will be interesting, as when the first deaths in belgium come in, belgium will close schools too. Far too late of course, but not for me: that decision was made long ago, in our household.

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