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Just now, Oldest Goat said:

The scientific method is pure; scientists aka humans aren't. I'm not saying trust this scientist disregard all others I'm saying the situation is a bit complicated...can we pause and think about things? Or is that not allowed anymore lest you be labelled a conspiracy theorist and condescended to?

I haven't labelled you a conspiracy theorist.

I have paused, what do you want me to think about? 

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Average Joes who state they do "research" and then whip out garbage from YouTube or Google make me wince. We CAN'T do research. Most of us here aren't intelligent enough and haven't put in the work to understand the actual science and studies that really matter. Trusting the teams of scientific professionals that pain painstakingly hold peer- reviewed studies are the only sane thing to do when it comes to modern medicine. Things don't always go right, but its a lot more trustworthy than rotting your brain on YouTube, Google, and Facebook. So a scientist who contributed some ideas on mRNA based vaccines 30 years ago has some reservations? So fucking what?

A few months back, I could understand the hesitancy with the vaccines, but at this point BILLIONS of doses have gone into arms across the globe. Ya'll really think 10 years down the line this thing is going to magically make your heart explode or whatever? For fuck's sake, it is just ignorance at this point. Look at what this stupid virus did after less than 2 years of existence. That is the only "research" people should be doing and it requires 10 seconds of critical thinking over what transpired over the past year and a half.

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7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I haven't labelled you a conspiracy theorist.

I have paused, what do you want me to think about? 

Well if you don't think I'm a conspiracy theorist I appreciate that cause I'm not one. I get the distinct feeling that's the general consensus when talking about things that could be considered 'conspiracy theory' territory.

I want you to consider things and convince me I worry too much. I want to be proven wrong and comforted because I am going to have to be vaccinated even though I don't want it due to social pressure and functioning in daily life. Ominously telling me just let it happen idiot won't work I'm afraid just fyi.

Here's a relatively small scope thing to delve into, do you really think J&J, the cunts who addict America to opioids and sell cancer causing talcum powder, can be trusted?

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6 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

I want you to consider things and convince me I worry too much. I want to be proven wrong and comforted because I am going to have to be vaccinated even though I don't want it due to social pressure and functioning in daily life. Ominously telling me just let it happen idiot won't work I'm afraid just fyi.

If you are not immediately convinced by the fact that the vaccines have successfully passed through strict and rigorous testing pathways before being approved by regulatory bodies, the fact that there is no scientific support for them being dangerous, and the fact that they have now been administered to millions of people with little side effects, then you have already made up your mind and nothing further I say will change your mind. 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Well if you don't think I'm a conspiracy theorist I appreciate that cause I'm not one. I get the distinct feeling that's the general consensus when talking about things that could be considered 'conspiracy theory' territory.

I want you to consider things and convince me I worry too much. I want to be proven wrong and comforted because I am going to have to be vaccinated even though I don't want it due to social pressure and functioning in daily life. Ominously telling me just let it happen idiot won't work I'm afraid just fyi.

Here's a relatively small scope thing to delve into, do you really think J&J, the cunts who addict America to opioids and sell cancer causing talcum powder, can be trusted?

Sorry for lumping you in with others out there, dude. I hope you get the vaccine because I don't want COVID to hurt you or anyone else

Edited by ZoSoRose
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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Sorry for lumping you in with others out there, dude. I hope you get the vaccine because I don't want COVID to hurt you or anyone else

It's okay, it's the internet, you don't know me irl and I rant about shit like the Pentagon and Vatican lol sometimes with great fervor too.

If the vaccine companies really have done rigorous medical trials ensuring they're safe, why aren't any of them liable? This is the sort of thing that's red flags to me. It's not that I think I've conducted medical research and am in the know.

Edited by Oldest Goat
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14 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Negative outcomes from their vaccines.

Legal liability depends. If they have lied about, hidden, or fabricated data, then they are certainly legally liable. Which is why some pharma companies are now in big legal trouble because of the opioids. [And you may claim they are not punished hard enough, and I would agree, but that is more a matter of the US legal system and not a question of legal liability.] If, on the other hand they have done everything according to the regulations, then they probably aren't liable (and probably shouldn't be, either). 

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Legal liability depends. If they have lied about, hidden, or fabricated data, then they are certainly legally liable. Which is why some pharma companies are now in big legal trouble because of the opioids. [And you may claim they are not punished hard enough, and I would agree, but that is more a matter of the US legal system and not a question of legal liability.] If, on the other hand they have done everything according to the regulations, then they probably aren't liable (and probably shouldn't be, either). 

The US government granted them immunity from any legal liability. If they're as safe as they/you claim, why?

I mean even this fact alone is a huge red flag.

Edited by Oldest Goat
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5 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

The US government granted them immunity from any legal liability. If they're as safe as they/you claim, why?

I mean even this fact alone is a huge red flag.

First off, neither of us are from the US so I don't understand why any peculiarities of the US legal system means that pharmaceutical companies are not legally liable for any negative outcomes of the Covid-19 vaccines and why it matters to us.

As for the opioid crisis and legal outcomes, the US gov granted who immunity? Purdue certainly hasn't been granted immunity. 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

First off, neither of us are from the US so I don't understand why any peculiarities of the US legal system means that pharmaceutical companies are not legally liable for any negative outcomes of the Covid-19 vaccines and why it matters to us.

As for the opioid crisis and legal outcomes, the US gov granted who immunity? Purdue certainly hasn't been granted immunity. 

I'd be very surprised if legal immunity in the US for these companies didn't mean legal immunity everywhere else especially in NZ.

I never said anything about legal immunity regarding the opioid crisis although god knows not enough has been done about it. I said do you think J&J -responsible for the opioid crisis as well as selling cancer causing talcum powder- are trustworthy as one of the vaccine producers. If so, justify that. If not, why isn't the scientific community constantly shitting on them.

Edited by Oldest Goat
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2 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

I'd be very surprised if legal immunity in the US for these companies didn't mean legal immunity everywhere else especially in NZ.

I never said anything about legal immunity regarding the opioid crisis although god knows not enough has been done about it. I said do you think J&J -responsible for the opioid crisis as well as selling cancer causing talcum powder- are trustworthy as one of the vaccine producers. If so, justify that. If not, why isn't the scientific community constantly shitting on them.

New Zealand is an autonomous state with its own independent legal system and can prosecute anyone breaking their laws. 

I don't have to trust any pharmaceutical company. I trust the regulatory bodies who have approved the drugs, the science that implies they are safe, and the fact that millions of doses have been administered with little side effect. 

If your question is: Do I trust that the vaccine companies have been honest when designing and reporting clinical data to the regulators, then the answer is yes, I tend to do that because it is very difficult to get away with that, and now with the data coming in from months of administering millions of doses, this trust seems to have been warranted. 

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2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

New Zealand is an autonomous state with its own independent legal system and can prosecute anyone breaking their laws. 

I don't have to trust any pharmaceutical company. I trust the regulatory bodies who have approved the drugs, the science that implies they are safe, and the fact that millions of doses have been administered with little side effect. 

If your question is: Do I trust that the vaccine companies have been honest when designing and reporting clinical data to the regulators, then the answer is yes, I tend to do that because it is very difficult to get away with that, and now with the data coming in from months of administering millions of doses, this trust seems to have been warranted. 

You think NZ/Kiwis can stand up to USA/Big Pharma? Wow I seriously doubt that. We said no to letting their nuclear vessels in our waters and they fucked us over for decades because of it even though we're allies. We are a small relatively weak country that is becoming more and more hollowed out by American and Chinese interests.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

You think NZ/Kiwis can stand up to USA/Big Pharma? Wow I seriously doubt that. We said no to letting their nuclear vessels in our waters and they fucked us over for decades because of it even though we're allies. We are a small relatively weak country that is becoming more and more hollowed out by American and Chinese interests.

Prosecution of foreign companies is not common anywhere, but is getting more usual. Maybe there is some solace in this: If a pharma company has deliberately twarthed the due regulatory process resulting in a Covid-19 vaccine being approved that is either not working or has adverse side effects, then it wouldn't be just NZ vs Pharma Corp, but the "entire world" vs Pharma Corp., analogues to a class lawsuit, I suppose. 

Edited by SoulMonster
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1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Prosecution of foreign companies is not common anywhere, but is getting more usual. Maybe there is some solace in this: If a pharma company has deliberately twarthed the due regulatory process resulting in a Covid-19 vaccine being approved that is either not working or has adverse side effects, then it wouldn't be just NZ vs Pharma Corp, but the "entire world" vs Pharma Corp., analogues to a class lawsuit, I suppose. 

Me and Norway will set them straight lol.

You're a very optimistic dude. Literally any point of concern you're just like "Nope. It's all good and even if it wasn't; it will be."

You have way too much faith in bureaucratic authorities. "If these already proven to be full of shit companies turn out to be cutting corners and the vaccines have adverse side effects; the entire world will stand up to America and make them do the right thing." Wow. I have a bridge to sell you.

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1 hour ago, Oldest Goat said:

Me and Norway will set them straight lol.

You're a very optimistic dude. Literally any point of concern you're just like "Nope. It's all good and even if it wasn't; it will be."

You have way too much faith in bureaucratic authorities. "If these already proven to be full of shit companies turn out to be cutting corners and the vaccines have adverse side effects; the entire world will stand up to America and make them do the right thing." Wow. I have a bridge to sell you.

Again, it wouldn't be small states vs Pharma Corp. Everybody would want to prosecute, USA included. 

And this is not about standing up to USA, or any other country. It is standing up to a company that has broken laws. And not all vaccine companies have their headquarters in the USA, far from it. As an example, AZ is from the UK. This equating big pharma with the USA is flawed on many levels. 

The reason I have faith in the process of drug approvals, is because it very rarely gets it wrong. It is as simple as that. There is nothing naive in trusting something that has proven to be trustworthy. Automatically believing it is corrupt despite all contrary evidence, is a form of cynical nativity. Of course it isn't perfect and mistakes are made, but in the case of Covid-19 vaccines we have amounted to an incredible large amount of supportive data: millions of doses administered. Your belief that the vaccines could be dangerous seems to persist despite all of this. 

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1 hour ago, Oldest Goat said:

You have way too much faith in bureaucratic authorities. "If these already proven to be full of shit companies turn out to be cutting corners and the vaccines have adverse side effects; the entire world will stand up to America and make them do the right thing." Wow. I have a bridge to sell you.

Pfizer, Moderna and J&J are “proven to be full of shit"? Seriously? Like any similarly sized companies, you will find examples of lawsuits and litigation in their history, but arguing as if they are crooks who falsify their clinical trials data is very naive and likely born out of conflating various speculative videos you have seen on YT with actual real stories about big pharma controversies that sadly exist. It fits the pattern of you recently claiming pharma isn't legally liable for their drugs. 

There is no reason to believe pharma companies are any better or any worse than other companies - they are run by humans like any other. But since drugs are so important, regulatory bodies have been set up to approve any drugs. It is a fail check. Pharma needs approval to sell their drugs, and hence they have to spend billions on scientific evidence supporting a drug's efficacy and safety as required by the regulators.

Falsifying clinical data to fool the regulatory bodies is difficult and would require everyone from research scientists, project leaders, management, etc to be in on it. It would also be ridiculously dangerous and leave people up for individual litigation and prosecution. Believing this is done regularly like a common conspiracy, can only come from a lack of knowledge of the process itself and the difficulties of doing it, and likely a warped understanding of humans. But maybe more importantly, it fails to take into account the very fact that the vast, vast majority of approved drugs work the way the clinical data supplied by the pharma companies said they would. This also seems to be the case for Covid-19 vaccines and hence it is a bit amusing to see videos of guys claiming the vaccines are dangerous. 

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3 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Again, it wouldn't be small states vs Pharma Corp. Everybody would want to prosecute, USA included. 

And this is not about standing up to USA, or any other country. It is standing up to a company that has broken laws. And not all vaccine companies have their headquarters in the USA, far from it. As an example, AZ is from the UK. This equating big pharma with the USA is flawed on many levels. 

The reason I have faith in the process of drug approvals, is because it very rarely gets it wrong. It is as simple as that. There is nothing naive in trusting something that has proven to be trustworthy. Automatically believing it is corrupt despite all contrary evidence, is a form of cynical nativity. Of course it isn't perfect and mistakes are made, but in the case of Covid-19 vaccines we have amounted to an incredible large amount of supportive data: millions of doses administered. Your belief that the vaccines could be dangerous seems to persist despite all of this. 

Ohk so then if push comes to shove the entire world might have to give UK a spanking after dealing with USA, Russia and/or China lol.

I am pretty cynical yeah. I feel like this says something about our experience with life when you think "Everything is fine. They're trying to help us. We can trust the bureaucrats. They care." and I tend to think "No. No. No. No."

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Pfizer, Moderna and J&J are “proven to be full of shit"? Seriously? Like any similarly sized companies, you will find examples of lawsuits and litigation in their history, but arguing as if they are crooks who falsify their clinical trials data is very naive and likely born out of conflating various speculative videos you have seen on YT with actual real stories about big pharma controversies that sadly exist. It fits the pattern of you recently claiming pharma isn't legally liable for their drugs. 

There is no reason to believe pharma companies are any better or any worse than other companies - they are run by humans like any other. But since drugs are so important, regulatory bodies have been set up to approve any drugs. It is a fail check. Pharma needs approval to sell their drugs, and hence they have to spend billions on scientific evidence supporting a drug's efficacy and safety as required by the regulators.

Falsifying clinical data to fool the regulatory bodies is difficult and would require everyone from research scientists, project leaders, management, etc to be in on it. It would also be ridiculously dangerous and leave people up for individual litigation and prosecution. Believing this is done regularly like a common conspiracy, can only come from a lack of knowledge of the process itself and the difficulties of doing it, and likely a warped understanding of humans. But maybe more importantly, it fails to take into account the very fact that the vast, vast majority of approved drugs work the way the clinical data supplied by the pharma companies said they would. This also seems to be the case for Covid-19 vaccines and hence it is a bit amusing to see videos of guys claiming the vaccines are dangerous. 

If the regulatory process is so infallible how is it that the opioid crisis was greenlit for so long?

Yes or no; it's possible for the regulatory process to succumb to greed or pressure? If not, explain how they're so awesome.

Warped understanding of humans? Elaborate.

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5 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

Ohk so then if push comes to shove the entire world might have to give UK a spanking after dealing with USA, Russia and/or China lol.

I am pretty cynical yeah. I feel like this says something about our experience with life when you think "Everything is fine. They're trying to help us. We can trust the bureaucrats. They care." and I tend to think "No. No. No. No."

If the regulatory process is so infallible how is it that the opioid crisis was greenlit for so long?

Yes or no; it's possible for the regulatory process to succumb to greed or pressure? If not, explain how they're so awesome.

Warped understanding of humans? Elaborate.

If it turns out a vaccine company has falsified results to get market approval, it would be the largest pharma lawsuit in history. Not sure what you mean with, "after dealing with USA, Russia and/or China lol", there is no reason to think any of these countries wouldn't seek prosecution too.

The proof is in the pudding. We know for a fact (although the point seems to constantly elude you) that the vast majority of drugs that are approved work as demonstrated in he clinical trials. Hence for these drugs the process has worked as intended: the drug companies did not falsify the results and the regulators approved based on this. 

Going into this with the perspective of, "I am gonna distrust every drug that is approved, including the Covid-19 vaccines" despite the above, just doesn't make sense. It suggests a mind that is so bent on seeing conspiracies that it isn't able to consider facts rationally. 

 

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5 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

If it turns out a vaccine company has falsified results to get market approval, it would be the largest pharma lawsuit in history. Not sure what you mean with, "after dealing with USA, Russia and/or China lol", there is no reason to think any of these countries wouldn't seek prosecution too.

The proof is in the pudding. We know for a fact (although the point seems to constantly elude you) that the vast majority of drugs that are approved work as demonstrated in he clinical trials. Hence for these drugs the process has worked as intended: the drug companies did not falsify the results and the regulators approved based on this. 

Going into this with the perspective of, "I am gonna distrust every drug that is approved, including the Covid-19 vaccines" despite the above, just doesn't make sense. It suggests a mind that is so bent on seeing conspiracies that it isn't able to consider facts rationally.

What the fuck. Are you drunk?

You've completely failed to grasp my doubtful mockery of the notion of New Zealand - nay - the entire planet suing the USA/Big Pharma if something goes wrong; especially when they have legal immunity(which I guarantee you every country ordering these vaccines is agreeing to.) which btw I never said depended on falsifying results, I think negligence due to greed or simple human error would be much more likely. But whether or not something goes wrong is beside the point; they should be liable regardless.

You dodged my question regarding the regulatory process in the context of the opioid crisis because you excited yourself eager to get on my dick and frantically bounce around basically declaring me as an anti-vaxxer who questions all drugs, possibly science in general ya never know. When in fact that is very untrue. I have actually made no bold assertions at all just made the mistake of openly considering some fears and posing a few questions on a Guns N' Roses forum.

I'm very forthright, humble, self-depricating, sincere and my reward is you trying to put words in my mouth and then audaciously doubling down on your imaginings saying I'm a conspiracy theorist with a warped unhinged mind incapable of considering facts rationally. Just fyi terrible bedside manner for if you ever do talk to someone like that.

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2 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

What the fuck. Are you drunk?

You've completely failed to grasp my doubtful mockery of the notion of New Zealand - nay - the entire planet suing the USA/Big Pharma if something goes wrong; especially when they have legal immunity(which I guarantee you every country ordering these vaccines is agreeing to.) which btw I never said depended on falsifying results, I think negligence due to greed or simple human error would be much more likely. But whether or not something goes wrong is beside the point; they should be liable regardless.

Why do you insist they have legal immunity? I have never, ever heard of such a thing that a pharmaceutical company would make agreements with countries where they would be granted immunity from legal repercussions if it turns out something is wrong with the drugs. Can you show any examples of this having happened before? Or even better, can you present any evidence that countries have accepted such terms in their agreements with pharmaceutical companies regarding Covid-19 vaccines?

And again, no one would be suing USA for something a pharmaceutical company does. 

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13 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

You dodged my question regarding the regulatory process in the context of the opioid crisis because you excited yourself eager to get on my dick and frantically bounce around basically declaring me as an anti-vaxxer who questions all drugs, possibly science in general ya never know. When in fact that is very untrue. I have actually made no bold assertions at all just made the mistake of openly considering some fears and posing a few questions on a Guns N' Roses forum.

I have already commented on Purdue Pharma and the opioid crises in previous posts. I have never claimed mistakes aren't made and that there have been no cases of pharma fraudulence and corruption of the clinical pathway (it is you, who for unclear reasons, present my argument as if the process is "infallible"). My point is -- as I have stated a few times now ;) -- that in the vast majority of cases the process of drug approval works as intended and the drugs behave as described. There is no reason to assume that is also not the case with Covid-19, especially now when they have been administered so successfully to millions of people

Edited by SoulMonster
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1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

I have already commented on Purdue Pharma and the opioid crises in previous posts. I have never claimed mistakes aren't made and that there have been no cases of pharma fraudulence and corruption of the clinical pathway (it is you, who for unclear reasons, present my argument as if the process is "infallible"). My point is -- as I have stated a few times now ;) -- that in the vast majority of cases the process of drug approval works as intended and the drugs behave as described. There is no reason to assume that is also not the case with Covid-19, especially now when they have been administered so successfully in million of cases. 

Go back and re-read what's been said, ideally with reading comprehension skills and try to figure out why I can't be bothered continuing this discussion. You win I do not care.

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