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Hollywood Rose song "Rock n' Roll Rose", written by Axl, was considered for the Illusion records


ludurigan

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The Hollywood Rose song Rock 'n Roll Rose, a song that Axl wrote after playing his first gig in Los Angeles, was considered by Guns n' Roses for the Use Your Illusion records.

This info has just been "revealed" on the so-far uncirculated (among english-speaking fans) 1989 Izzy interview for the German magazine Metal Hammer (full interview here: https://www.a-4-d.com/t4501-1989-09-dd-metal-hammer-germany-revolution-calling-izzy)

I think this is too good of info and it deserves its own thread

It raises a lot of questions and speculations

Based on that Izzy quote, I think we can safely assume that...

"Rock n' Roll Rose" was played by Guns n' Roses in rehearsals/ studio sessions some time (or some "times") during the 1985-1990 era

I think we can also speculate that...

- "Rock n' Roll Rose" was likely rearranged by Guns n' Roses, in the same way that they rearranged all the Hollywood Rose songs that they ever played or recorded (Anything Goes, Shadow of Your Love, Reckless Life)

- "Rock n' Roll Rose" may have been demoed at some point!

So my take on that is that it is very possible that some recording of "Rock n' Roll Rose" played by Guns n' Roses exists, be it a raw studio sessions recordings (in the same style of the Mate Rehearsal tapes) or even a full complete demo.

Which brings us to another question:

How many more Hollywood Rose songs Guns n' Roses has played and/or rearranged and/or recorded over the years?

There are quite a few Hollywood Rose songs that, until now, we don't know if Guns n' Roses has ever "touched on".

This list includes songs that are in circulation and songs that remain uncirculated:

"Rocker"

"Killing Time"

"Cold Hard Cash"

"Everything Ok"

"Rock N' Roll Survivor" (this is actually a Road Crew song that Axl added lyrics to for Hollywood Rose)

 

(there may be more HR songs that are not on this list)

 

If you ask me, I would say that Guns n' Roses probably "tried" playing all these HR songs at least once!

 

 

===

 

sources:

 

 

= https://www.setlist.fm/stats/songs/hollywood-rose-2bd684ea.html?song=Rock+N'+Roll+Rose

 

= https://books.google.com.br/ReckLessRoad

 

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I think this was just something Izzy thought about. Maybe he had discussed it with Axl and planned on sending in a tape with the song to Slash for consideration. I don't think the band had actually rehearsed it already in September 1989 (when this interview was conducted). But I could absolutely be wrong.

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1 hour ago, DTJ80 said:

It’s very odd that if it was considered for illusions then there is nothing on the various demos/rehearsals?!

 

I don't think we have had access (listened) to not even 1% of the material rehearsed and recorded for the illusion albums

they must have had COUNTLESS writing sessions, jams, rehearsals and even recording sessions in lots of different studios and we have NOTHING of these recordings

izzy himself said in another interview that they recorded the album "3 times" during the three years that it took for they to make it (1989-1991)

so i would say there is nothing odd about that

the fact that we didn't have access to it doesn't mean that they didn't play it or that there are no recordings of it somewhere...

 

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1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

I think this was just something Izzy thought about. Maybe he had discussed it with Axl and planned on sending in a tape with the song to Slash for consideration. I don't think the band had actually rehearsed it already in September 1989 (when this interview was conducted). But I could absolutely be wrong.

it is possible, sure

but i would say that the opposite is more likely

izzy said "i will give you three song titles"

if you are giving three song titles to a journalist in amongst 30 that you can pick from, don't you agree that you will give him 3 songs that are/were "really likely" to be included on the album?

i believe that's at least what was on izzy's mind

i don't think he would give the name of a song title for the next album if this song hadn't been 1) played and arranged by the band and 2) accepted/agreed on by the band

but yeah i coud also be wrong

1 hour ago, Live Like a Suicide said:

Axl also sang Bloodshot Eyes with an early LA Guns, though i'm not sure if it was Axl or Tracii (or others) who brought it to the table.

That's an LA Guns song, right?

Do you know if LA Guns ever recorded it after Axl left the band?

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3 hours ago, ludurigan said:

post-37284-0-48958000-1436541132.jpeg

 

The Hollywood Rose song Rock 'n Roll Rose, a song that Axl wrote after playing his first gig in Los Angeles, was considered by Guns n' Roses for the Use Your Illusion records.

This info has just been "revealed" on the so-far uncirculated (among english-speaking fans) 1989 Izzy interview for the German magazine Metal Hammer (full interview here: https://www.a-4-d.com/t4501-1989-09-dd-metal-hammer-germany-revolution-calling-izzy)

I think this is too good of info and it deserves its own thread

It raises a lot of questions and speculations

Based on that Izzy quote, I think we can safely assume that...

"Rock n' Roll Rose" was played by Guns n' Roses in rehearsals/ studio sessions some time (or some "times") during the 1985-1990 era

I think we can also speculate that...

- "Rock n' Roll Rose" was likely rearranged by Guns n' Roses, in the same way that they rearranged all the Hollywood Rose songs that they ever played or recorded (Anything Goes, Shadow of Your Love, Reckless Life)

- "Rock n' Roll Rose" may have been demoed at some point!

So my take on that is that it is very possible that some recording of "Rock n' Roll Rose" played by Guns n' Roses exists, be it a raw studio sessions recordings (in the same style of the Mate Rehearsal tapes) or even a full complete demo.

Which brings us to another question:

How many more Hollywood Rose songs Guns n' Roses has played and/or rearranged and/or recorded over the years?

There are quite a few Hollywood Rose songs that, until now, we don't know if Guns n' Roses has ever "touched on".

This list includes songs that are in circulation and songs that remain uncirculated:

"Rocker"

"Killing Time"

"Cold Hard Cash"

"Everything Ok"

"Rock N' Roll Survivor" (this is actually a Road Crew song that Axl added lyrics to for Hollywood Rose)

 

(there may be more HR songs that are not on this list)

 

If you ask me, I would say that Guns n' Roses probably "tried" playing all these HR songs at least once!

 

 

===

 

sources:

 

 

= https://www.setlist.fm/stats/songs/hollywood-rose-2bd684ea.html?song=Rock+N'+Roll+Rose

 

= https://books.google.com.br/ReckLessRoad

 

Rock n Roll Rose sounds like a working title. It could of been changed to another song title and released for all we know. Or just been the led zepplin cover Rock n Roll that Axl had did in the past.

 

Edited by vloors
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1 hour ago, ludurigan said:

 

I don't think we have had access (listened) to not even 1% of the material rehearsed and recorded for the illusion albums

they must have had COUNTLESS writing sessions, jams, rehearsals and even recording sessions in lots of different studios and we have NOTHING of these recordings

izzy himself said in another interview that they recorded the album "3 times" during the three years that it took for they to make it (1989-1991)

so i would say there is nothing odd about that

the fact that we didn't have access to it doesn't mean that they didn't play it or that there are no recordings of it somewhere...

 

Oh totally agree. Was just saying if the snippets of sessions we HAVE heard or read about that it’s has never been mentioned or surfaced - until now with the above article. I hope it does exist somewhere!

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47 minutes ago, DTJ80 said:

Oh totally agree. Was just saying if the snippets of sessions we HAVE heard or read about that it’s has never been mentioned or surfaced - until now with the above article. I hope it does exist somewhere!

yeah, me too

I am pretty sure there are LOTS and LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of songs that the band has just abandoned along the way

If you consider all the times that the band has got together to write songs and jam and rehearse from 1985 to 1991, I would say that there must be

- AT LEAST 5-10 songs that were fully structured with vocals and lyrics and that were abandoned

- AT LEAST 10-20 covers that were tried but for whatever reason were also abandoned and never recorded or performed live

- AT LEAST 50-80 half-finished songs without vocals or with unfinished vocals that were also abandoned/forgotten

- AT LEAST 100-200 instrumental ideas (maybe just a riff, maybe just a chord progression etc) that were started but were never fully developed

That is just what happens with bands

In Guns n' Roses, with 4 guys coming up with ideas...

The questions are

1) what was recorded?

2) if something was recorded, do the recordings still exist?

3) if the recordings still exist, who has them and will they ever be put in circulation?

I have said it several times here and I will say it again: these recordings are the GN'R Holy Grail.

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2 hours ago, vloors said:

Rock n Roll Rose sounds like a working title. It could of been changed to another song title and released for all we know. Or just been the led zepplin cover Rock n Roll that Axl had did in the past.

 

No, it's definitely not a cover of the Led Zeppelin famous track

It is certainly a Hollywood Rose song written by Axl. Marc Canter mentions it by name on his book Reckless Road and says that Axl wrote the song after doing his first show in LA

 

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Izzy must've brought up the idea of rearranging it. Cool if a recording exists. So the list of unreleased Illusions would be Ain't Goin Down, Rock N Roll Rose, Bring it Back Home, Sentimental Movie, Just Another Sunday, and I think Too Much too Soon. Dont believe Crash Diet was considered I think someone (Axl or Duff?) mentioned it wasnt. 

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15 hours ago, djones1225 said:

Izzy must've brought up the idea of rearranging it. Cool if a recording exists. So the list of unreleased Illusions would be Ain't Goin Down, Rock N Roll Rose, Bring it Back Home, Sentimental Movie, Just Another Sunday, and I think Too Much too Soon. Dont believe Crash Diet was considered I think someone (Axl or Duff?) mentioned it wasnt. 

Don't we already know that these are all West Arkeen songs and that Axl just sang on them to help West sell his "demo tape" to record labels or to other bands?

I guess even Sentimental Movie (who doesn't have Axl's vocal) was a West Arkeen song too and can be included in this bunch, right?

There were a few very informative threads a while ago here about that, some forum users knew a lot of stuff about it.

15 hours ago, djones1225 said:

Izzy must've brought up the idea of rearranging it. Cool if a recording exists.

Yeah at first I thought that it was probably Izzy's idea but maybe it was Axl's because he wrote the song?

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On 05/03/2020 at 9:04 AM, UcudBmine said:

Well, if there's a lot of unheard demos from the UYI days you'll hear it next year when the UYI L&L Boxset is available for the same price as organs on the black market.

:rofl-lol:

but wasn't the original plan to include 100 lithographs, 300 toys and 10 versions of Don't Cry on the uyi boxset?

seriously, they gave us very little uncirculated music on the appetite toy box and if there is a box for UYI i don't think they will give us any more uncirculated music

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7 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

:rofl-lol:

but wasn't the original plan to include 100 lithographs, 300 toys and 10 versions of Don't Cry on the uyi boxset?

seriously, they gave us very little uncirculated music on the appetite toy box and if there is a box for UYI i don't think they will give us any more uncirculated music

My guess is Ain't Going Down wíth lyrics and the 158 Civil War takes from Adler.

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On 4.3.2020 at 3:56 PM, ludurigan said:

yeah, me too

I am pretty sure there are LOTS and LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of songs that the band has just abandoned along the way

If you consider all the times that the band has got together to write songs and jam and rehearse from 1985 to 1991, I would say that there must be

- AT LEAST 5-10 songs that were fully structured with vocals and lyrics and that were abandoned

- AT LEAST 10-20 covers that were tried but for whatever reason were also abandoned and never recorded or performed live

- AT LEAST 50-80 half-finished songs without vocals or with unfinished vocals that were also abandoned/forgotten

- AT LEAST 100-200 instrumental ideas (maybe just a riff, maybe just a chord progression etc) that were started but were never fully developed

I hate to rain on your parade again, buddy, but I think you are a bit too optimistic here.

The way the band worked, I don't think there is much unheard material. What they did was send in song ideas to the rest of the band, or present them when they met (like in Chicago). Then they decided upon which songs to try out, Duff and Matt and Slash would work on them. And from this there would likely be quite a bit of recordings of various instrumentals because I assume these rough demos without vocals would be shared among the band members and others for further work. But then they quickly decided on which songs they wanted and went into pre-production to churn out decent versions of the songs, all without vocals. By January 1991 they had recorded 35 songs, but only a few with vocals. I think there are about 40 songs on UYIs + SI., + Ain't Goin' Down. So they didn't record much that didn't end up on either. We know they recorded a Hanoi Rocks song (without vocals) and Down on the Streets by The Stooges (without vocals), but those are the only two I can think of. Likely a few other instrumentals, both originals and covers.

And the very last thing that happened was Axl adding vocals and from statements they made at the time, it doesn't seem like he added vocals to many more songs then those that ended up on the albums.

Edited by SoulMonster
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20 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I hate to rain on your parade again, buddy, but I think you are a bit too optimistic here.

The way the band worked, I don't think there is much unheard material. What they did was send in song ideas to the rest of the band, or present them when they met (like in Chicago). Then they decided upon which songs to try out, Duff and Matt and Slash would work on them. And from this there would likely be quite a bit of recordings of various instrumentals because I assume these rough demos without vocals would be shared among the band members and others for further work. But then they quickly decided on which songs they wanted and went into pre-production to churn out decent versions of the songs, all without vocals. By January 1991 they had recorded 35 songs, but only a few with vocals. I think there are about 40 songs on UYIs + SI., + Ain't Goin' Down. So they didn't record much that didn't end up on either. We know they recorded a Hanoi Rocks song (without vocals) and Down on the Streets by The Stooges (without vocals), but those are the only two I can think of. Likely a few other instrumentals, both originals and covers.

And the very last thing that happened was Axl adding vocals and from statements they made at the time, it doesn't seem like he added vocals to many more songs then those that ended up on the albums.

plus I remember a poster had asked Marc Canter if there was a lot of unreleased material left by the classic lineup from the Appetite/UYI days to which Marc replied that there wasn't, that they have released most of it, everything that was worth releasing. (something like that)

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20 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I hate to rain on your parade again, buddy, but I think you are a bit too optimistic here.

The way the band worked, I don't think there is much unheard material. What they did was send in song ideas to the rest of the band, or present them when they met (like in Chicago). Then they decided upon which songs to try out, Duff and Matt and Slash would work on them. And from this there would likely be quite a bit of recordings of various instrumentals because I assume these rough demos without vocals would be shared among the band members and others for further work. But then they quickly decided on which songs they wanted and went into pre-production to churn out decent versions of the songs, all without vocals. By January 1991 they had recorded 35 songs, but only a few with vocals. I think there are about 40 songs on UYIs + SI., + Ain't Goin' Down. So they didn't record much that didn't end up on either. We know they recorded a Hanoi Rocks song (without vocals) and Down on the Streets by The Stooges (without vocals), but those are the only two I can think of. Likely a few other instrumentals, both originals and covers.

And the very last thing that happened was Axl adding vocals and from statements they made at the time, it doesn't seem like he added vocals to many more songs then those that ended up on the albums.

Wow! Down in the street is one of my favourite. It'd be cool if they covered it.

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On 07/03/2020 at 4:47 PM, SoulMonster said:

I hate to rain on your parade again, buddy, but I think you are a bit too optimistic here.

The way the band worked, I don't think there is much unheard material. What they did was send in song ideas to the rest of the band, or present them when they met (like in Chicago). Then they decided upon which songs to try out, Duff and Matt and Slash would work on them. And from this there would likely be quite a bit of recordings of various instrumentals because I assume these rough demos without vocals would be shared among the band members and others for further work. But then they quickly decided on which songs they wanted and went into pre-production to churn out decent versions of the songs, all without vocals. By January 1991 they had recorded 35 songs, but only a few with vocals. I think there are about 40 songs on UYIs + SI., + Ain't Goin' Down. So they didn't record much that didn't end up on either. We know they recorded a Hanoi Rocks song (without vocals) and Down on the Streets by The Stooges (without vocals), but those are the only two I can think of. Likely a few other instrumentals, both originals and covers.

And the very last thing that happened was Axl adding vocals and from statements they made at the time, it doesn't seem like he added vocals to many more songs then those that ended up on the albums.

Thanks for your reply

I noticed on your post that you seem to be referring to the Illusions era (roughly 1989-1991). Is that right?

Just to make it clear, the "estimates" from my post refer to the entire Guns n' Roses era 1985-1991 and not just the Illusions era.

So let's focus on the Illusion era.

You described the modus operandi of the band at the time...

"they (...) send in song ideas to the rest of the band, or present them when they met (like in Chicago). Then they decided upon which songs to try out, Duff and Matt and Slash would work on them."

I agree with you that that was the basic MO of the band at that time. They didn't live together in the same place anymore. Not only that but apparently they didn't get together half as much as they did during the Appetite era. OK. But I can NOT agree that they NEVER got together in three years for writing sessions. I am pretty sure they did it and I am pretty sure they did it several times over the 1989-1991 time.

For example, let's think about the "writing session" for Locomotive. If my memory serves me right, Izzy and Slash got together, they were both stoned and/or drunk, and they wrote the basic initial idea of the song together.

Now how do you think that happened? Do you think they decided "hey, let's write a heavy rocker" and they came up with Locomotive and just Locomotive and nothing but Locomotive?

Anyone who has ever been in a writing session will tell you that this is not how it happens. Usually songwriters throw several ideas at each other until they decide which ones to pick up and develop. Until that happens, they dabble with different ideas.

So you can be sure that for every fully developed song that a band creates, there will be one, two, three, or even more potential songs that were tried and abandoned at different stages for different reasons.

Sometimes bands abandon even very developed ideas or fully-developed ideas ("songs") for whatever reason.

I can give you a few reasons:

- no one recorded the writing sessions and no one remembers what was played

- the session was recorded but the tapes were lost or forgotten

- everyone agreed that this and that idea (songs) were nice but they voted (or decided) to focus on developing this and that other ideas instead

- somebody in the band didn't like the idea/song and then it was abandoned

If you consider all the times some of them or all of them got together...

Yes I agree that "there would likely be quite a bit of recordings of various instrumentals" and that's exactly my point!

I would add that some of these "instrumentals" may have rough lyrics or guide vocals by izzy and/or the blonde king of yoga

When you say "then they quickly decided on which songs they wanted and went into pre-production to churn out decent versions of the songs, all without vocals" that describes precisely what happened when Matt was onboard, but i believe you are not taking into consideration what happened 1989-1990 when matt was NOT in the band. Izzy said they recorded the albums three times (by my guess that happened 1989-1991, probably two times with Steven Adler and one, the final, proper time, with Matt Sorum).

The fact that "By January 1991 they had recorded 35 songs, but only a few with vocals" doesn't mean that they didn't create 10, 20, 30 or 50 other "songs" (or just initial, very basic ideas of songs) that were abandoned and never professionally recorded.

But they may have been recorded nonetheless.

Bands record stuff for reference. I wouldn't be surprised if they recorded every rehearsal for reference -- to listen to in the car, to "not-forget" the songs, etc

You say "So they didn't record much that didn't end up on either"

I can agree with you if you mean "they didn't professionally recorded much fully-structured songs with lyrics that didn't end up on either"

But how many unfinished, not fully developed "songs" and "ideas" they may have recorded? Even if just for reference?

 

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On 08/03/2020 at 1:19 PM, Rovim said:

plus I remember a poster had asked Marc Canter if there was a lot of unreleased material left by the classic lineup from the Appetite/UYI days to which Marc replied that there wasn't, that they have released most of it, everything that was worth releasing. (something like that)

We know for a fact that Marc filmed basically every gig that Guns n' Roses did on the club days and beyond.

We know for a fact that he was very close to Slash and to the band in general so we can guess that Marc probably listened to most -- if not all -- of the complete and finished songs that Guns n' Roses professionally recorded in those days.

We also know for a fact that despite being close to the band and everything, it is very likely that Marc -- just like everyone else that was not in the band -- most likely had very little access to band practice sessions. That includes:

- Acoustic guitar jams and (or "writing sessions") that Izzy, Slash and Duff did on their sofas at home, sometimes likely with Axl around

- Studio rehearsals for upcoming gigs

- Studio practice sessions

- Soundchecks during the Appetite tour

- and who knows what else

Like I said in the post above, a lot of bands do not-professional recordings of rehearsals, jams, writing sessions etc for reference.

Ask any songwriter and they will tell you that they can come up with 2, 3, 5 or more new song ideas in just a few hours during some of these writing sessions, and that most of them record these writing sessions for later reference.

so there might be lots of golden stuff that was recorded (not-professionally) and later abandoned for whatever reason.

do these recordings still exist?

===

you mention that Marc say something about "everything that was worth releasing was released"

Well, I am not looking for recordings that Marc or Guns n' Roses believe are worth releasing.

I am looking for every recording of Guns n' Roses that exists from 1985 to 1991.

Simple as that.

I couldn't care less if Marc Canter or Guns n' Roses thinks that these are worth releasing or not.

I know, for a fact, that these are worth listening to.

Why?

Because, to this day, all the unreleased Guns n' Roses material inn circulation that I ever listened to is really, really worth listening to.

Edited by ludurigan
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On 08/03/2020 at 3:42 PM, Creed said:

Cool Pic of Axl with his real teeth. He changed them right after WTTJ. 

With regard to Rock n Roll Rose: Sounds like a real deal to me. Interesting that he mentioned it in one line with NR and YCBM. So was it as good as them?

well, it should be at least in the same ball park

i don't think it is as good as YCBM by any means, or else they would be really stupid to abandon it

but, hey, they have abandoned a little song called i ain't going down, haven't they?

 

 

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23 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

We know for a fact

We know for a fact

We also know for a fact

Ask any songwriter   I couldn't care less if Marc Canter

I know, for a fact,

I think Marc probably meant that there is no unreleased material from the Appetite/UYI days that he knows about, that is on par with what got officially released by the old lineup. I was strictly talking about original music, not live shows. He also said something along the line of almost everything they came up with back then was used. Very little got scrapped. You can, of course, believe what you want.

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17 minutes ago, Rovim said:

I think Marc probably meant that there is no unreleased material from the classic line up days that he knows about, that is on par with what got officially released by the old lineup. I was strictly talking about original music, not live shows. He also said something along the line of almost everything they came up with back then was used. Very little got scrapped. You can, of course, believe what you want.

yes I think the same of you that is exactly what Marc probably meant

I am talking about original music as well, but i am not talking about just full complete professional recordings of finished songs

those would certainly be very welcome, but like you mentioned it is very likely that they don't exist or if they do it should be just a few songs

i am also talking about unfinished songs and or ideas that 1) most likely existed, like i been trying to say on several posts here, because that's just the nature of songwriting 2) may have been recorded, even if just for reference 3) may still exist today if someone kept these recordings

do you want a good example of that?

there exists a 17 minutes incomplete recording of a hollywood rose rehearsal in which they play 3 or 4 songs that we know

on this rehearsal they also play a "song" (just about 1 minute and a few seconds) with axl vocals and lyrics, that to this day (to the best of my knowledge) remains unnamed

That piece of music is great

You can tell by the way that Axl sang the lyrics on that occasion that the lyrics were written before he sang them

So it is VERY LIKELY that that little 1-minute-piece-of-music is actually a part of an already written, developed, structured and likely finished *song*

You can, of course, not want to listen to that

 

Edited by ludurigan
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