Evader’s mix of The General discussion *No links*

[Pele]

2 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Axl called it Jackie Chan in the 2008 forum chats. He said it was the working title. Who knows, maybe he intended to write new lyrics to it, but never did? Or maybe he was used to referring to it by the old working title.

 

I think there is a slight possibility he got mixed up - maybe thought a different song had leaked.

Only a theory.

I just don't see how/why HardSkool would become Jackie Chan in 2008.  It makes sense as a working title in 96, but was called HardSchool in 99/00. 

Either:

• He changed the name back to Jackie Chan (or simply preferred it's old working title and went back and forth) 
• He re-wrote the song and it had different lyrics (then reverted back to HardSkool as per setlist and backing vox in rehearsals)
• He got confused about which snippet had leaked and thought the 'Checkmate' we were referring to was a different song

[Coma16]

I wonder which version of Better would be on that album. DJs? Better Gone? Or the current "slashed-up" live version.

Same as Cather? Was there a remix for that one?

Edited August 25, 2021 by Coma16

[Blackstar]

I hope Hardschool gets released before @Gambit83 interviews Matt, so that he can ask him about it, since mentions the Jackie Chan song in his autobiography (I hope this part hasn't been edited out in the official version of the book). Matt seems to have a good memory about these things; when the CD title track was released, he had commented that it wasn't among the songs they'd worked on when he was still in the band.

[Pele]

6 minutes ago, Coma16 said:

I wonder which version of Better would be on that album. DJs? Better Gone? Or the current "slashed-up" live version.

Same as Cather? Was there a remix for that one?

I don't think we heard a remix for Catcher but Brain said he did a few more.

[Blackstar]

7 minutes ago, Coma16 said:

I wonder which version of Better would be on that album. DJs? Better Gone? Or the current "slashed-up" live version.

It couldn't be Ashba's, since he was hired in 2009 and the list is allegedly from January 2008.

[Gordon Comstock]

3 minutes ago, Coma16 said:

I wonder which version of Better would be on that album. DJs? Better Gone? Or the current "slashed-up" live version.

Same as Cather? Was there a remix for that one?

 

I think it was Dizzy who said Catcher and Rhiad(?) weren't gonna be on the album, it may have been Tommy, I don't really remember, it was from an interview in 2006 I think. In January 2008 it seems Axl still wanted to put Catcher on the second album. But since the leaks dictated the tracklist, it was released on the first album...

I assume Better, CD, Prostitute and TIL were remixes, meant as bonus tracks.

[Pele]

4 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I hope Hardschool gets released before @Gambit83 interviews Matt, so that he can ask him about it, since mentions the Jackie Chan song in his autobiography (I hope this part hasn't been edited out in the official version of the book). Matt seems to have a good memory about these things; when the CD title track was released, he had commented that it wasn't among the songs they'd worked on when he was still in the band.

Yeah that would be interesting.  I'd like to know if that song originated from the 96 sessions or if it's all a misunderstanding.

[Pele]

3 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

I think it was Dizzy who said Catcher and Rhiad(?) weren't gonna be on the album, it may have been Tommy, I don't really remember, it was from an interview in 2006 I think. In January 2008 it seems Axl still wanted to put Catcher on the second album. But since the leaks dictated the tracklist, it was released on the first album...

I assume Better, CD, Prostitute and TIL were remixes, meant as bonus tracks.

Yeah, my guess was they were considered 'back up' songs (or Album 2 songs), however Axl didn't finish up enough of the others so they were 'promoted' to the album.

Or Catcher leaked so they decided to use it.

Was it Sean Beaven the producer who said they just didn't have enough 'hits' yet.

I'd say anyone looking at the project would have wanted ChiDem, Blues, Maddy, TWAT, Better, maybe IRS etc - but would have wanted additional work done on the instrumentals (and State of Grace) so they didn't have to include Rhiad, Atlas, Catcher, OMG, Silkworms etc.

That was probably the intention for quite some time, until it became apparent he wasn't going to finish any more and they had to piece together what they had (and convince him to revisit This I Love).

Edited August 25, 2021 by Pele

[Gordon Comstock]

4 minutes ago, Pele said:

Yeah, my guess was they were considered 'back up' songs (or Album 2 songs), however Axl didn't finish up enough of the others so they were 'promoted' to the album.

Or Catcher leaked so they decided to use it.

 

According to Axl, the tracklist on the album was "the songs that could get through the label's red tape" which basically means the label said "these are the songs that leaked, so these are the songs we're recouping money on".

[Coma16]

3 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

According to Axl, the tracklist on the album was "the songs that could get through the label's red tape" which basically means the label said "these are the songs that leaked, so these are the songs we're recouping money on".

Also included all songs they played live, except Silkworms, so there's that too.

[Chester 524]

33 minutes ago, darkside259 said:

i really want to say that if somone want to send mi a dm with something, i would be happy bc i seems im the only one who doesn t heard some songs 

 

please...

me too

[Pele]

5 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

According to Axl, the tracklist on the album was "the songs that could get through the label's red tape" which basically means the label said "these are the songs that leaked, so these are the songs we're recouping money on".

Yeah.  I also think there wasn't much else to pull from.  They couldn't use State of Grace unfortunately (unless he rerecorded).  

I'm not sure why HardSkool and Perhaps didn't make the cut.  Maybe the vocals weren't recorded properly.

I think the 3 album thing was the vision on 2001 when he had some good songs completed and tons of instrumentals ready to be completed.

I think that vision had long dried up by 2008, so I didn't really buy the theory that they held back songs for the next record.

[Gordon Comstock]

Just now, Pele said:

Yeah.  I also think there wasn't much else to pull from.  They couldn't use State of Grace unfortunately (unless he rerecorded).  

I'm not sure why HardSkool and Perhaps didn't make the cut.  Maybe the vocals weren't recorded properly.

I think the 3 album thing was the vision on 2001 when he had some good songs completed and tons of instrumentals ready to be completed.

I think that vision had long dried up by 2008, so I didn't really buy the theory that they held back songs for the next record.

 

He said they had 36 songs in 2006, 24 of which were basically done. That's 2 complete albums and another album still being worked on.

[Pele]

9 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

He said they had 36 songs in 2006, 24 of which were basically done. That's 2 complete albums and another album still being worked on.

I know, but I don't believe they did.

I think they included completed instrumentals that he had ideas for.

I think there was a spell or excitement and creativity in the very late 90s, where we essentially got Chinese Democracy.

I think there was another spurt of enthusiasm late 2006 when he was sounding good and in great shape, and he recorded Better vocals, Sorry vocals, Shacklers, Scraped, The General, TIL v2 and backing vox for Going Down. 

I think that's where it ended.  I'm hoping he also recorded Monstrosity, Zodiac, Thyme, Berlin, Tonto and Cuban Skies here, but I believe the chances of that are slim to none.  There is a chance he's written lyrics and recorded something for these - but I very much doubt they are full, usable songs with finished vocal.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Pele

[Gordon Comstock]

1 minute ago, Pele said:

I know, but I don't believe they did.

I think they included completed instrumentals that he had ideas for.

 

Ok.

[Pele]

4 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

Ok.

Sorry - I've added a bit more to my response above as that sounded a little rude!

[Gordon Comstock]

15 minutes ago, Pele said:

I know, but I don't believe they did.

I think they included completed instrumentals that he had ideas for.

I think there was a spell or excitement and creativity in the very late 90s, where we essentially got Chinese Democracy.

I think there was another spurt of enthusiasm late 2006 when he was sounding good and in great shape, and he recorded Better vocals, Sorry vocals, Shacklers, Scraped, The General, TIL v2 and backing vox for Going Down. 

I think that's where it ended.  I'm hoping he also recorded Monstrosity, Zodiac, Thyme, Berlin, Tonto and Cuban Skies here, but I believe the chances of that are slim to none.  There is a chance he's written lyrics and recorded something for these - but I very much doubt they are full, usable songs with finished vocal.

 

 

 

How could he have recorded vocals for Better in late 2006, when it leaked in late 2005?

A lot of that stuff was probably done between 2002-2004. Shackler's wasn't written until 2007 (it's about the Virginia Tech massacre). The version of Going Down we heard was from mid-2006 but the vocals were probably a couple years old. There was that post on the Steve Hoffman forum about Cuban Skies having vocals in 2003 ("a song about cigars, weird right?"). I agree most of the songs were probably done in 'spurts of enthusiasm' but those spurts were probably more productive than we realize.

There's songs we had no idea about until they were released or leaked - nobody mentioned Scraped or Shackler's Revenge before 2008, stuff like State Of Grace was unheard of until the village leaks... it's completely possible that he had 24 complete songs, and another albums worth of stuff with vocals like SOG or maybe Quicksong. If he was counting instrumentals, he would've said they were working on a lot more than 36 songs.

[GNR 1991]

6 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

How could he have recorded vocals for Better in late 2006, when it leaked in late 2005?

A lot of that stuff was probably done between 2002-2004. Shackler's wasn't written until 2007 (it's about the Virginia Tech massacre). The version of Going Down we heard was from mid-2006 but the vocals were probably a couple years old. There was that post on the Steve Hoffman forum about Cuban Skies having vocals in 2003 ("a song about cigars, weird right?"). I agree most of the songs were probably done in 'spurts of enthusiasm' but those spurts were probably more productive than we realize.

There's songs we had no idea about until they were released or leaked - nobody mentioned Scraped or Shackler's Revenge before 2008, stuff like State Of Grace was unheard of until the village leaks... it's completely possible that he had 24 complete songs, and another albums worth of stuff with vocals like SOG or maybe Quicksong. If he was counting instrumentals, he would've said they were working on a lot more than 36 songs.

I wouldn’t give any credence or serious thought to Pele’s posts. However, Better leaked in February 2006, not late ‘05. Also, Shacklers is as old as the Village leaks as it’s on one of the Rough Mixes. Axl probably didn’t record vocals until way later but the song is from 2000 or so in rough form.

[Pele]

10 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

How could he have recorded vocals for Better in late 2006, when it leaked in late 2005?

A lot of that stuff was probably done between 2002-2004. Shackler's wasn't written until 2007 (it's about the Virginia Tech massacre). The version of Going Down we heard was from mid-2006 but the vocals were probably a couple years old. There was that post on the Steve Hoffman forum about Cuban Skies having vocals in 2003 ("a song about cigars, weird right?"). I agree most of the songs were probably done in 'spurts of enthusiasm' but those spurts were probably more productive than we realize.

There's songs we had no idea about until they were released or leaked - nobody mentioned Scraped or Shackler's Revenge before 2008, stuff like State Of Grace was unheard of until the village leaks... it's completely possible that he had 24 complete songs, and another albums worth of stuff with vocals like SOG or maybe Quicksong. If he was counting instrumentals, he would've said they were working on a lot more than 36 songs.

Yeah good point re. Better, but wasn't it early 2006?

I don't think the poster on the Steve Hoffman forum heard Cuban Skies vocal.  I'm sure he said Axl told him it was about cigars, then played an instrumental intro.

You're right, we had no idea about Scraped (although was Lies They Tell mentioned somewhere) or Shacklers.

State of Grace is interesting, never ever mentioned until locker leaks.   As mentioned earlier, songs like Tonto, Perhaps, Going Down, Nothing etc were circulated - but never State of Grace.

It's worth pointing out the person who leaked those songs/names thinks State of Grace may be The General.

I don't see it myself.  I hear a different song, but he says it's potentially a revised part.

I think a lot of people were under the impression The General was the song about Child Abuse, possibly due to the lyrics Evader decoded.

I think the Child Abuse song could have been OMG.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Pele

[Gordon Comstock]

2 minutes ago, GNR 1991 said:

I wouldn’t give any credence or serious thought to Pele’s posts. However, Better leaked in February 2006, not late ‘05. Also, Shacklers is as old as the Village leaks as it’s on one of the Rough Mixes. Axl probably didn’t record vocals until way later but the song is from 2000 or so in rough form.

 

Better leaked in stages - I think the first leak was late 2005 and it was around 90 seconds, then January or February 2006 another clip leaked that was a bit over 2 mins, then the full song leaked a little later.

And yea, Shackler's goes back to the Village sessions but I meant the lyrics weren't written until 2007.

[Nice Boy]

There is at least one unreleased AFD era show close to pro-shot quality, I found a small segment of it buried in a fairly obscure interview video a while ago. I posted about it on here, to my surprise no one had ever seen it or knew what it is, but the conclusion was a TV company probably has the rights. It looks great though, decent audio/video and Axl even has the teased hair, lol

 

[Gordon Comstock]

2 minutes ago, Pele said:

Yeah good point re. Better, but wasn't it early 2006?

I don't think the poster on the Steve Hoffman forum heard Cuban Skies vocal.  I'm sure he said Axl told him it was about cigars, then played an instrumental intro.

You're right, we had no idea about Scraped (although was Lies They Tell mentioned somewhere) or Shacklers.

State of Grace is interesting, never ever mentioned until locker leaks.   As mentioned earlier, songs like Tonto, Perhaps, Going Down, Nothing etc were circulated - but never State of Grace.

It's worth pointing out the person who leaked those songs/names thinks State of Grace may be The General.

I don't see it myself.  I hear a different song, but he says it's potentially a revised part.

I think a lot of people were under the impression The General was the song about Child Abuse, possibly due to the lyrics Evader decoded.

I think the Child Abuse song could have been OMG.

 

There was an article around the Rio 2001 show that mentioned a song about child abuse, but OMG had been out for a while at that point and I think Axl said it was inspired by parts of the movie? Someone else might be able to find the article, I think it was from a Brazilian or Argentinian version of Rolling Stone.

There's one part in State Of Grace that sounds vaguely similar to part of The General, but they're pretty clearly separate songs.

[Eric Cantona]

State of Grace and The General have the same melodic intervals (1-5-b5), but are in different keys and follow different rhythmic patterns. (The General is in Eb minor and State of Grace C# minor... I think)

Not directed toward Gordon Comstock, but I remember recently seeing speculation regarding them being the same song.

Edited August 26, 2021 by goldentobacco

[Pele]

3 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

There was an article around the Rio 2001 show that mentioned a song about child abuse, but OMG had been out for a while at that point and I think Axl said it was inspired by parts of the movie? Someone else might be able to find the article, I think it was from a Brazilian or Argentinian version of Rolling Stone.

There's one part in State Of Grace that sounds vaguely similar to part of The General, but they're pretty clearly separate songs.

I think they are separate songs too.

I think SOG is really good.  Staggered it wasn't on the list above (suggesting it was not considered for inclusion on CD2) or mentioned in any circles.

Almost like they did it in 99 and totally forgot about it, whilst rerecording Silkworms etc!

I hope it wasn't abandoned.

 

[Arnuld]

4 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

There was an article around the Rio 2001 show that mentioned a song about child abuse, but OMG had been out for a while at that point and I think Axl said it was inspired by parts of the movie? Someone else might be able to find the article, I think it was from a Brazilian or Argentinian version of Rolling Stone.

There's one part in State Of Grace that sounds vaguely similar to part of The General, but they're pretty clearly separate songs.

I’m not sure that SOG and the General are two different songs. The first time I heard SOG my first thought was huh…..that song seems to have elements that are similar to that fucking cell phone clip. Also Bach described the General as having very high piercing vocals which SOG has. Also SOG never seemed like a complete song. No guitar solos. Just seemed like there was so meat left on that bone.