"Cancel Culture" Opinions?

[RussTCB]

Thought I'd start a thread on Cancel Culture to gather some opinions. 

Personally, I cannot stand it. It seems nearly every day, someone, some company or some product is "cancelled" because they said or did something that offended someone. 

It just seems like there's no room for human error anymore. I fully understand that there are people and companies with bad intentions, but I refuse to believe every single company and person is bad at heart. I'm certain there are people and companies who make honest mistakes, but the current Cancel Culture leaves no room for that. 

It just feels like we're gonna get to a point where no one wants to say or do anything for fear of being cancelled. I think about most of the comedy I grew up on and nearly all of it would never have a chance to be made today. Same with music. There's tons of artists who would never have a chance by today's "be offended by everything" culture. 

I'm sure this topic has been touched on in other threads, but I really want to hear some opinions on it so I thought I'd give it a thread of its own. 

[soon]

Ugh, isn't Cancel Culture the worst?

I havent really thought about it in relation to businesses. But for people I have thought about it a lot, and cancel culture is a horrible and destructive thing.

There are real issues that need to be solved. And we have better tools to make that change already. Its really sad. We need to dig deep for humanity and compassion. Because we all need other peoples compassion ourselves, whether we can admit it or not.

My thinking is only on one tiny sliver of the larger phenomenon of Cancel Culture, and that is Cancel Cultures role in splintering 'social movements for positive change.' Or how Cancel Culture threatens to knock important movements off track, causing them to loose focous, 

Spoiler

For starters, Cancel Culture doesnt address the actual issues, so it fails as a strategy. Like, say the issue is racism. Racism isnt a person, it's something that is corrupting a person. Address the racism. Instead, Cancel Culture excludes people when the opportunity could be taken to connect with a wrongdoer and have them reflect on their action. They might learn and grow and stop doing that harm. That actually works to solve the issue of racism.

Cancel Culture insists on viewing the world as binary, but that is not what the world and its people actually are. Thats oversimplifying the complex issue of injustice. And Cancel Culture also contradicts itself because it claims to act in the name of humanity, but it robs the humanity of the person being cancelled by making them into a one dimensional caricature. 

People are multidimensional and can evolve on issues, grow as humans and change their outlook. Cancel Culture seems to not want people to grow and evolve as indicated by its love of digging up old Tweets that in many cases do not reflect that persons views in the present day. If one actually cares about the issue itself then they should be congratulating the person for changing their opinion for the better, not punishing them for it!

Looking back, we can see the roots of the current Cancel Culture in secular fundamentalism. Their plan was to have religion canceled  And its interesting to root the analysis in that historical context. Because secular fundamentalism presents itself as liberal but in fact aligns perfectly in many cases with neo-conservative foreign policy / war on terror stuff. Likewise, Cancel Culture promotes itself as being progressive but in fact does not align with preexisting currents or tendencies in progressive movements. They are ideologies built on flawed premises that are unrelated to reality. Cancel Culture is in fact a very neoliberal type of thought, focused on the wants of the self (identity). Ignoring the big picture (material).

Preexisting progressive movements focus on unity and solidarity. And those Progressive movements, who still exist today, are very focused on what could be said to be alternatives to Cancel Culture. Things like accountability circles, restorative justice and transformative justice.

Accountability Circles - Most commonly found in small organizational structures. If someone in the org does wrong it will be addressed by a small group of people who will engage in dialogue with the victim and perpetrator. The community is usually made aware of it all. And theres steps taken to hold the person to account while also trying to avoid small minded binaries and punitive justice measures as much as possible.

Restorative Justice - Sometimes called Community Justice in courts. This is a process that was learned from some Indigenous Peoples in NA. It takes a few forms today but they all have common characteristics. The restoration part often involves the victim and perpetrator sitting down together. The victim is able to express how they've been effected and harmed. They get to ask the perpetrator why they did it. Theres some sort of commitment made by the perpetrator to the victim - thats the Restorative part. I've seen an example where the mom of a murdered child told the murderer "You are now a part of my life" and she visits him in jail. In turn he tries to value his life as much as she does and studies and works hard at being a model inmate. No one wants to see yet another life wasted. (note: if someone you loved was murdered and you don't want to visit the murder in prison, that is totally understandable and fair. The doesnt reflect on you in any negative way. It works for this Mom, thats all.)

Transformative Justice - Instead of just returning things to like how they were before a bad event, why not use the event as a chance to transform the world for the better? Its like Judo - use the momentum to ones advantage. This process seeks to rid the world of the injustice rather then simply hold perpetrators to account. You see stories of people leaving hate groups and now they speak to school children to warn them against joining a hate group. That type of thing could also be found in the above two models, but Transformative is a framework that seeks to get maximum positive change out of really bad situations. Like, say someone shits everywhere just to make the world ugly and then you grow flowers in their manure. Then you sit in the beautiful garden and talk about their pain and healing. Then the next season they ask to be the gardener. And the sanctuary that they create gives a small child a place to sort out their thoughts and avoid going doing a bad path in life. Ripples of grace emanating from the site of harm, all through the generations to come.

I got a lot out of a few books on this recently. Here's one (Content Caution),

Turn This World Inside Out The Emergence of Nurturance Culture by Nora Samaran

And this Emmy Award winning documentary, available on YouTube, TVO Docs channel,

White Right: Meeting the Enemy by Deeyah Khan

 

Anyways, like I say, these reflections only touch on one aspect of the larger thing that is Cancel Culture. But I don't fear it in general. My favourite comedians say unspeakably vile and mean shit and I love it! 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by soon

[Jakey Styley]

It can certainly be a frustrating thing that makes little sense sometimes. You have people posting on Instagram to boycott  Goya Beans for their CEO supporting Trump on iPhones made with parts from Uighur slave labor - just clownish. It’s often not about what’s right, it’s more about the performative act of showing everyone (and yourself) how much you care or whatever.

 

I find that these people also lack an endgame. Louis CK took two years off of doing anything, lost a movie deal, came back and started doing one off shows and you still had these people saying he should’ve stayed away longer or something. What the fuck was he supposed to do? Stand up comedy is his job. And who decides? Why is it you and not the sold out crowd he just played to?

[Swampfox]

58 minutes ago, soon said:

Ugh, isn't Cancel Culture the worst?

I havent really thought about it in relation to businesses. But for people I have thought about it a lot, and cancel culture is a horrible and destructive thing.

There are real issues that need to be solved. And we have better tools to make that change already. Its really sad. We need to dig deep for humanity and compassion. Because we all need it ourselves whether we can admit it or not.

My thinking is only on one tiny sliver of the larger phenomenon of Cancel Culture, and that is Cancel Cultures role in splintering social movements for positive change. Or how Cancel Culture threatens to knock important movements off track, causing them to loose focous, 

  Hide contents

For starters, Cancel Culture doesnt address the actual issues, so it fails as a strategy. Like say the issue is racism. Racism isnt a person, its something that is corrupting a person. Address the racism. Instead, Cancel Culture excludes people when the opportunity could be taken to connect with a wrongdoer and have them reflect on their action. They might learn and grow and stop doing that harm. That actually works to solve the issue of racism.

Cancel Culture insists on viewing the world as binary, but that is not what the world and its people actually are. Thats oversimplifying the complex issue of injustice. And Cancel Culture also contradicts itself because it claims to act in the name of humanity, but it robs the humanity of the person being cancelled by making them into a one dimensional caricature. 

People are multidimensional and can evolve on issues, grow as humans and change their outlook. Cancel Culture seems to not want people to grow and evolve as indicated by its love of digging up old Tweets that in many cases do not reflect that persons views in the present day. If one actually cares about the issue itself then they should be congratulating the person for changing their opinion for the better, not punishing them for it!

Looking back, we can see the roots of the current Cancel Culture in secular fundamentalism. Their plan was to have religion canceled  And its interesting to root the analysis in that historical context. Because secular fundamentalism presents itself as liberal but in fact aligns perfectly in many cases with neo-conservative foreign policy/ war on terror stuff. Likewise, Cancel Culture promotes itself as being progressive but in fact does not align with preexisting currents or tendencies in progressive movements. They are ideologies built on flawed premises that are unrelated to reality. Cancel Culture is in fact a very neoliberal type of thought, focused on the wants of the self (identity). Ignoring the big picture (material).

Preexisting progressive movements focus on unity and solidarity. Progressive moments today are very focused on what could be said to be alternatives to Cancel Culture. Things like accountability circles, restorative justice and transformative justice.

Accountability Circles - Most commonly found in small organizational structures. If someone in the org does wrong it will be addressed by a small group of people who will engage in dialogue with the victim and perpetrator. The community is usually made aware of it all. And theres steps taken to hold the person to account while also trying to avoid small minded binaries and punitive justice measures as much as possible.

Restorative Justice - Sometimes called Community Justice in courts. This is a process that was learned from some Indigenous Peoples in NA. It takes a few forms today but they all have common characteristics. The restoration part often involves the victim and perpetrator sitting down together. The victim is able to express how they've been effected and harmed. They get to ask the perpetrator why they did it. Theres some sort of commitment made by the perpetrator to the victim - thats the Restorative part. I've seen an example where the mom of a murdered child told the murderer "You are now a part of my life" and she visits him in jail. In turn he tries to value his life as much as she does and studies and works hard at being a model inmate. No one wants to see yet another life wasted. (note: if someone you loved was murdered and you don't want to visit the murder in prison, that is totally understandable and fair. The doesnt reflect on you in any negative way. It works for this Mom, thats all.)

Transformative Justice - Instead of just returning things to like how they were before a bad event, why not use the event as a chance to transform the world for the better? Its like Judo - use the momentum to ones advantage. This process seeks to rid the world of the injustice rather then simply hold perpetrators to account. You see stories of people leaving hate groups and now they speak to school children to warn them against joining a hate group. That type of thing could also be found in the above two models, but Transformative is a framework that seeks to get maximum positive change out of really bad situations. Like, say someone shits everywhere just to make the world ugly and then you grow flowers in their manure. Then you sit in the beautiful garden and talk about their pain and healing. Then the next season they ask to be the gardener. And the sanctuary that they create gives a small child a place to sort out their thoughts and avoid going doing a bad path in life. Ripples of grace emanating from the sight of harm, all through the generations to come.

I got a lot out of a few books on this recently. Here's one (Content Caution),

Turn This World Inside Out The Emergence of Nurturance Culture by Nora Samaran

And this Emmy Award winning documentary, available on YouTube, TVO Docs channel,

White Right: Meeting the Enemy by Deeyah Khan

 

Anyways, like I say, these reflections only touch on one aspect of the larger thing that is Cancel Culture. But I don't fear it in general. My favourite comedians say unspeakably vile and mean shit and I love it! 

 

 

😂

[Rovim]

I think we're in a transitional period where technology had made morals a very black and white kinda deal where a lot of the world's population seem to get their idea of what should be accepted and rejected from a very shallow outlook on life based on what they're being fed by what they're exposed to in the modern world and also how they want to perceive it.

It's easier to label something or someone as positive or negative cause it's very orderly, neat.

plus big companies want as many customers as possible so they're just playing it safe by not allowing margins of error like they used to before the world was so connected so they don't offend anyone and lose money.

it's not all bad though imo. Some fucked up shit is being exposed almost every week it seems. Monsters that use their power to destroy people are being shunned from society.

Nietzsche wrote about it in his book "On The Genealogy Of Morality" for example. I think it's just now that we have the tools to really get silly with it. A lot of people don't seem to have limits when it comes to the extent they will go to judge a person based on one thing he/she said or did and it's very satisfying for some to "cancel" others cause it makes them feel they're a good person. They like to feel righteous when they "lynch" someone else.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Rovim

[Swampfox]

5 minutes ago, Jakey Styley said:

It can certainly be a frustrating thing that makes little sense sometimes. You have people posting on Instagram to boycott  Goya Beans for their CEO supporting Trump on iPhones made with parts from Uighur slave labor - just clownish. It’s often not about what’s right, it’s more about the performative act of showing everyone (and yourself) how much you care or whatever.

 

I find that these people also lack an endgame. Louis CK took two years off of doing anything, lost a movie deal, came back and started doing one off shows and you still had these people saying he should’ve stayed away longer or something. What the fuck was he supposed to do? Stand up comedy is his job. And who decides? Why is it you and not the sold out crowd he just played to?

Most cancel culture comes from the left.  It's only a matter of time before they eat their own.

[Dazey]

10 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

Most cancel culture comes from the left.  It's only a matter of time before they eat their own.

Grudgingly I’d have to agree. The right are certainly not blameless though. 

[Ace Nova]

I never paid much attention to it until recently.  I still don't understand the concept entirely, tbh....that's how foreign it is to me.   For starters, naming anything  "Cancel ______" is an abomination, imo.  (Even if it's not exactly what they intend to do).  It's an extremely prejudicial title and screams nothing but "holier than thou" and "my way is the only right way".

Anyway, imo, people promoting the movement severely lack understanding of the human psyche, history, working class culture, what it means to live in a "free society" and the importance of freedom of speech and the arts.  (That's the only logical reasoning I can come up with).

That's not to say certain events, issues, entities, etc don't "deserve" to be canceled. 

But one of the greatest things about living in a free society is that we have the free will to choose what we pay attention to and what we want to spend our money on, etc etc.   Historically, society has done a pretty decent job of deciding what they want included in "their culture" without some absurd movement that equates to being, "judge, jury and executioner".

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Ace Nova

[Coma16]

The worst of the worst are losers on LinkedIn who tag a company when they disagree with someones comment on controversial issues.

[Ace Nova]

3 hours ago, Rovim said:

 

it's not all bad though imo. Some fucked up shit is being exposed almost every week it seems. Monsters that use their power to destroy people are being shunned from society.

 

I agree with just about everything you posted except for this. 

The "monsters" you speak of were brought to justice and "shunned" because society decided they no longer wanted certain "elements" within their culture.   Typically, it was because a few people were brave enough to speak up and society (for the most part) agreed with them.  And that's the way it's worked in just about every "free society" throughout history.  It's exactly how culture is formed, not canceled. 

One of the dangers of a movement like "Cancel Culture"   is that it leads to people assuming that because their "ideology" was in line with bringing "monsters" to justice, then that must mean the "Cancel Culture" movement must be the reason (and that all of their ideology must be correct, then)...when in fact, it would have happened regardless.   It hides the fact that their true ideology (whether they realize it or not) is based off of some of the worst, most destructive ideologies in history.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Ace Nova

[Rovim]

11 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

I agree with just about everything you posted except for this. 

The "monsters" you speak of were brought to justice and "shunned" because society decided they no longer wanted certain "elements" within their culture.   Typically, it was because a few people were brave enough to speak up and society (for the most part) agreed with them.  And that's the way it's worked in just about every "free society" throughout history.  It's exactly how culture is formed, not canceled. 

One of the dangers of a movement like "Cancel Culture"  is that because their "ideology" was in line with bringing "monsters" to justice, then that must mean the "Cancel Culture" movement must be the reason, when in fact, it would have happened regardless.  

but I think society, as a whole, didn't have the means to even know about it in the past, without the tech that exist today. if it's the camera in our smart phones, wikileaks, or just the freedom that comes with posting some information online anonymously about a fucked up individual or practice, knowing it can probably gain widespread attention.

I agree that some elements of "Cancel Culture" have a very ugly and destructive side to it. It comes with a great cost to freedom of expression, and it generates fear and lack of personality in many products, but sometimes  the damage caused by new tools that are being abused changes with time. Not sure if it will change for the better or for the worse though. 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Rovim

[Dazey]

2 hours ago, Dazey said:

Grudgingly I’d have to agree. The right are certainly not blameless though. 

I’d like to add that the difference between the right and left is that people on the left who get cancelled stay cancelled whereas people on the right don’t give a shit. That’s why Al Franken disappeared and Pussy Grabber didn’t miss a beat. 

[Ace Nova]

27 minutes ago, Rovim said:

but I think society, as a whole, didn't have the means to even know about it in the past, without the tech that exist today. if it's the camera in our smart phones, wikileaks, or just the freedom that comes with posting some information online anonymously about a fucked up individual or practice, knowing it can probably gain widespread attention.

I agree that some elements of "Cancel Culture" have a very ugly and destructive side to it. It comes with a great cost to freedom of expression, and it generates fear and lack of personality in many products, but sometimes  the damage caused by new tools that are being abused changes with time. Not sure if it will change for the better or for the worse though. 

 

 

I edited my post for clarity....

One of the dangers of a movement like "Cancel Culture"  is that because their "ideology" was in line with bringing "monsters" to justice, then that must mean the "Cancel Culture" movement must be the reason (and that all of their ideology must be correct, then)...when in fact, it would have happened regardless.   It hides the fact that their true ideology (whether they realize it or not) is based off of some of the worst, most destructive ideologies in history.

And that's the dangers of the movement.  As a society, when you let a very small group of people decide and/or influence "what is right" and "what is wrong"...how to spend your money and what you can and cannot do....that is no different than authoritarianism.   The only difference is that the tyrant is disguised as a "movement for the people".  Alarmingly similar to how some of the worst regimes in history came about. 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Ace Nova

[Rovim]

23 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

I edited my post for clarity....

One of the dangers of a movement like "Cancel Culture"  is that because their "ideology" was in line with bringing "monsters" to justice, then that must mean the "Cancel Culture" movement must be the reason (and that all of their ideology must be correct, then)...when in fact, it would have happened regardless.   It hides the fact that their true ideology (whether they realize it or not) is based off of some of the worst, most destructive ideologies in history.

And that's the dangers of the movement.  As a society, when you let a very small group of people decide and/or influence "what is right" and "what is wrong"...how to spend your money and what you can and cannot do....that is no different than authoritarianism.   The only difference is that the tyrant is disguised as a "movement for the people".  Alarmingly similar to how some of the worst regimes in history came about.

society becomes the jury of sorts so of course it's risky and more and more companies are like Disney now. That's how they react to the shift in the climate of morality. Your reputation as a service provider/a known and successful individual can be damaged too easily.

I don't support, enjoy or condone "Cancel culture", I'm just not surprised this is a part of reality now cause the behavior is kinda the logical by product of the technology imo.

a lot of people become aware to shit they didn't care enough about to invest the time it took to discover it or just couldn't before. Now they can read about it, react, influence, and get factored in the equation by a facebook/youtube/google/smart phone algorithms so easily and in a matter of minutes. Sometimes pieces of shit do get what they deserve thanks to it though.

personally, I think it's already out of control but it only reflects human nature. Hopefully we can evolve from it but maybe it needs to get much worse before it can improve, idk.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Rovim

[DieselDaisy]

They are already eating their own. Owen Jones getting into a big spat with that tosser from LBC (James O' Brien) over something related to transgender - the JK Rowling thing - was one of the most hilarious twitter spats I have ever seen. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by DieselDaisy
Remembered name

[Ace Nova]

14 minutes ago, Rovim said:

society becomes the jury of sorts so of course it's risky and more and more companies are like Disney now. That's how they react to the shift in the climate of morality. Your reputation as a service provider/a known and successful individual can be damaged too easily.

I don't support, enjoy or condone "Cancel culture", I'm just not surprised this is a part of reality now cause the behavior is kinda the logical by product of the technology imo.

a lot of people become aware to shit they didn't care enough about to invest the time it took to discover it or just couldn't before. Now they can read about it, react, influence, and get factored in the equation by a facebook/youtube/google/smart phone algorithms so easily and in a matter of minutes. Sometimes pieces of shit do get what they deserve thanks to it though.

personally, I think it's already out of control but it only reflects human nature. Hopefully we can evolve from it but maybe it needs to get much worse before it can improve, idk.

Right.  Free societies, because of free will, have always been the jury.   Technology makes certain events/changes/etc happen at a much faster pace.  The events that transpired (in terms of the monsters being brought to justice) would have happened naturally, without the force of a movement like "Cancel Culture" but through the help of technology.  It is not reliant on a movement like "Cancel Culture"

"Cancel Culture" uses the technology as a "steroid" to further their agenda, during these turbulent times of transition.   They abuse the reach they have through technology and clump in whatever else they see fit. 

And what is most unfortunate is that "Cancel Culture" is the equivalent of taking too many antibiotics.  They're supposed to make you better by killing the bad bacteria but when you take too much, it kills both the bad and the good bacteria...and after a while, it no longer works.  

[soon]

32 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

They are already eating their own. Owen Jones getting into a big spat with that tosser from LBC (James O' Brien) over something related to transgender - the JK Rowling thing - was one of the most hilarious twitter spats I have ever seen. 

You must be quite the JK Rowling fan? This is like the 100th time you've posted about this.  

Hairy Potter - You're learning magic spells to regrow hair?? I nailed it! 

[alfierose]

56 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

They are already eating their own. Owen Jones getting into a big spat with that tosser from LBC (James O' Brien) over something related to transgender - the JK Rowling thing - was one of the most hilarious twitter spats I have ever seen. 

Owen Jones might just be one of the most insufferable people in this country and it's a fairly high bar. 

[Rovim]

41 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

Right.  Free societies, because of free will, have always been the jury.   Technology makes certain events/changes/etc happen at a much faster pace.  The events that transpired (in terms of the monsters being brought to justice) would have happened naturally, without the force of a movement like "Cancel Culture" but through the help of technology.  It is not reliant on a movement like "Cancel Culture"

"Cancel Culture" uses the technology as a "steroid" to further their agenda, during these turbulent times of transition.   They abuse the reach they have through technology and clump in whatever else they see fit. 

And what is most unfortunate is that "Cancel Culture" is the equivalent of taking too many antibiotics.  They're supposed to make you better by killing the bad bacteria but when you take too much, it kills both the bad and the good bacteria...and after a while, it no longer works.  

yeah, I think it's definitely an over compensating kind of a trend and a lot of shit is labeled unfair or unjust without even being understood. Maybe it's sometimes an overreaction based on rigid personal beliefs or an attempt to be more inclusive by just shutting it down completely cause you don't like the message and now you can do something about it and digitize your tribalism.

so "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" and all that, but there is shit that needs to be "canceled" or at the very least condemned imo.

Nasty stuff like inequality, racism, abuse of power, the usual shit. The problem, imo, is that the culture cannot progress without making a fuckload of mistakes cause the new  and very powerful tools we have now as a society are being used by everyone, so it's chaotic and a lot of people (with sometimes good intentions) don't seem to differentiate between trying to improve shit and ruining the very essence of what makes something/someone interesting or cool.

the difference is that now everyone is watching and reacting so the scale of it, and the ability to influence makes it difficult for people to not express their opinion and once enough people do that, it becomes meaningful sometimes to corporate entities for example or legislative bodies.

I believe there is a learning curve and also companies know that if they don't conform, they lose money so it's a slow and painful process to find balance. It depends on when/if enough people will grow tired of the extreme elements of it.

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Rovim

[Silent Jay]

Cancel culture has always existed. But now it's not MSM who is the primary influence for it, it's social media.

However country-wide few people use social media platforms, so it creates a mob culture that decides what's right and wrong. Then MSM amplifies it.

People on social media are becoming more and more sensitive, mostly about things that don't matter or impact their daily life. It's a very unhealthy mindset considering most of them are cattles under 25 and do not have a fully developed brain. That's how the brainwashing starts.

[Silent Jay]

8 hours ago, RussTCB said:

Personally, I cannot stand it. It seems nearly every day, someone, some company or some product is "cancelled" because they said or did something that offended someone. 

Companies only obey to the mighty dollar.

[RussTCB]

Glad to see so many opinions on this! I'm gonna take some time later to read through everything and respond. 

[Mendez]

i have not read any of the other responses. I think cancel culture is only good when there is obvious evidence against the guy/girl/entity they are canceling. I also think sometimes people cancelled too fast without evidence

[Swampfox]

4 hours ago, Dazey said:

I’d like to add that the difference between the right and left is that people on the left who get cancelled stay cancelled whereas people on the right don’t give a shit. That’s why Al Franken disappeared and Pussy Grabber didn’t miss a beat. 

Al Franken disappeared because his own party made him resign.  "Pussy Grabber" aka "my guy" didn't miss a beat because he won the election.  Should have quit while you were ahead buddy.  Your first post was actually pretty good.

[soon]

7 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

Al Franken disappeared because his own party made him resign.  "Pussy Grabber" aka "my guy" didn't miss a beat because he won the election.  Should have quit while you were ahead buddy.  Your first post was actually pretty good.

That sure flew over your head