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"Cancel Culture" Opinions?


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26 minutes ago, downzy said:

That's a good question.  Who really knows.  As they mention in The Daily podcast I linked to, there is a connection between the pandemic and the greater importance placed on our digital lives. 

There is undoubtedly a difference between how most people act online and how they behave in real life (though most who have met me in real life would say I'm not much different in person than I am online). 

I'm currently reading a book called "The Shallows" by Nicholas Carr on how the internet and social media is affecting our figurative and literal brands with respect processing information and our capacity to focus and engage deeply.  I have no doubt that the internet is affecting how we process emotion, communicate, and relate in both specific situations and in general.

I do think the anxiety around cancel culture is similar to the anxiety around political correction.  Both are complex ideas and play out in very different ways, both good and bad, but requires some effort to sit down and wrestle with them. 

And with respect to the pandemic, since social existence for many is limited to their online experiences, being told what is and what isn't by some perceived abstract and overarching techno-culture ads an extra layer of anxiety that ads to what we already feel.  

Lots of good points.

The pandemic must be an odd predicament for identity-based circles of affinity. Whether that be identity politics people on one side or identitarians on he right. Leaving digital as the only realm to assert identity and gather in identity-based groupings during the pandemic. And I believe those two groups to be the most engaged in cancel culture. So perhaps there is a flare up in cancel culture that Im not seeing because its happening in corners of the online world that I dont check out. Those groups that used to love to don helmets and scream at each other in parks or campuses wouldn't know what else to do with themselves. But for me, if Im honest, it seems like the cancelling thing already came and went. Public figures in my little corner of the internet who've been cancelled in the last two years mostly just responded with "No Im not" and carried on their successful careers. 

Im told the only difference irl with me is that I'm armed with a heavy cane :lol:

Im really thankful that you mentioned that book. Im going to check it out. Y'know a few years back a buddy of mine was studying journalism and then he switched to new media. And at the time no matter how much he explained what he would even study about it, I couldnt wrap my head around it. I was like, "So you're gonna study cute cat videos and farting-in-the-library prank videos?" And now, all I want to do is consume critical new media analysis and tech philosophy. It all happened so fast! Thanks for mentioning the book!

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Thought I'd start a thread on Cancel Culture to gather some opinions.  Personally, I cannot stand it. It seems nearly every day, someone, some company or some product is "cancelled" because they

I got a chance to read up on the thread and there were a lot of great posts.  My overall worry about cancel culture is that it seems we're quickly moving towards a point where no one can speak th

Thanks 🤣    Trying to cancel or erase cinema (the most collaborative art form there is) because someone problematic worked on it is just fucking stupid. It’s book burning level stupid. I r

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2 hours ago, downzy said:

And I think this is where we disagree. 

I have a twitter account (that has been dormant for years; only in the last six months have I really discovered what twitter was and how to consume it).  I see all sorts of people advocating different positions with respect to what should be accepted and what shouldn't.  Causes and collective actions aren't solely or always the product of efforts by one famous or well-followed individual.  The call for police reform has been an issue that has long been present and only received further attention and acceptance after visuals of George Floyd's murder.  We shouldn't undermine a movement with genuine support simply because mass consciousness and support was arrived around the same time.  Most, I would hope, didn't need to see what their friends were saying on Twitter to feel what happened to Floyd was wrong. 

That isn't to say that there aren't some exaggerated or performative and ephemeral contributions.  The entire black out movement where people posted black boxes on their instagram and facebook feeds was absolutely ludicrous and (to your point) an example of well-intentioned but misguided response that bordered on performative.  It drove me up the fucking wall to see many of my friends acting as though posting a black box on instagram actually did anything.  It reach levels of absurdity when several people I know began posting a black box every few hours to remind everyone how "woke" they were.  So I totally get that things can get out of hand and outlandish to the point of being a self-parody.  But I don't think misguided instances like that should define or represent what collective responses to moral considerations are, can, and have been.  

Right. 

The issues I was referring to that should be handled in a "pragmatic way" are the issues in your 2nd paragraph. 

I'm not sure if you missed it but I've stated that the major criminal justice cases, "monsters", etc where there already is an overwhelming amount of evidence...those aren't the problem with "cancel culture". 

The major issues get handled at a faster pace in 2020 with the help of technology but those major issues have always been handled by society.  

When it comes to criminal and social justice reform, those major issues still need to go through the judicial system and/or congress....regardless of any movement.  And even after it goes through the judicial system/congress, etc...society still needs to accept it as being a part of its new "culture".

For example; there have been a myriad of "social movements" in the history of the U.S.   A good portion of them would be considered "abominations" in 2020.  Many of them were created, followed but eventually evolved or lost momentum.   The most important ones helped form our current culture.  We can even go back further into world history, etc. 

But for now, we can look at the U.S. as an example....

 

9/11 Truth movement

Alternative movement

Animal rights movement

Animal Rebellion

Anti-Apartheid Movement

Anti-capitalism

Anti-consumerism

Anti-corporate activism

Anti-fascism

Anti-globalization movement

Anti-jock movement

Anti-liberalism

Anti-nuclear movement

Anti-psychiatry movement

Anti-war movement

Anti-vaccination movement

Asian American movement

Autism rights movement movement advocating for the right of people who are considered neurally divergent (anti-psychiatry)

Black Consciousness Movement

Black Lives Matter

Black Power movement

Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions

Brights movement

Chicano Movement

Children's rights movement

Civil rights movement

Conservation movement

Counterculture movement

Cooperative movement

Cultural movement

Decolonization

Disability rights movement

Earth First!

Ecofeminism

Ecomasculinity

Economy for the Common Good

Effective altruism

Efficiency movement

Environmental justice movement

Environmental movement

Esperanto movement

Ethiopian movement

Extinction Rebellion

Fair trade movement

Farm-to-table movement

Farm Worker Movement

Feminist movement

Free culture movement

Free love

Free school movement

Free software movement

Gay rights movement

Gerakan Harapan Baru (New Hope Movement in Malaysia)

Global citizens movement

Global justice movement

Health at Every Size

Health freedom movement

Hippie movement

Hizmet movement

Human rights movement

Identitarian movement

Immigrant rights movement

India Against Corruption

Indigenous peoples movement

Indigenous movements in the Americas

2017 pro-jallikattu protests

Ku Klux Klan

Labor movement

Landless Peoples Movement (South Africa)

Landless Workers' Movement (MST), the landless workers' movement in Brasil

Lawyers' Movement in Pakistan

Lebensreform

LGBTQ social movements (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender social movements)

Mad Pride (psychiatric social movement)

March For Our Lives movement

Men's rights movement

Me Too movement

Mothers Against Drunk Driving

Multiculturalism

Namantar Andolan (Change Movement among Dalits in India)

Narmada Bachao Andolan

National Cleanup Day

Non-cooperation movement

Nonviolence movement

Occupy movement

Occupy Wall Street

Organic movement

Plogging

Popular Assembly of the Peoples of Oaxaca

Pro-choice movement

Pro-life movement

Psychiatric survivors movement

Rape crisis movement

Rastafari movement

Reform movements in the United States

Reproductive justice

Right to health

Right to life

Rural People's Movement

Scouting Movement

Salt March (Salt Satyagraha movement)

Skeptical movement

Sex-positive movement

Sex Workers' Rights Movement

Slow Food movement

Slow movement

Situationist International

Social democracy

South African Unemployed Peoples' Movement

Soviet Jewry Movement

Student movement

Sunrise Movement

Tea Party movement

Temperance movement

The Zeitgeist Movement

Time to Change

Time's Up (movement)

TrashTag Movement

Treatment Action Campaign - movement struggling for HIV/AIDS treatment in South Africa

Umbrella Movement

Veganism

Via Campesina - international peasants movement representing 150 million people, advocating food sovereignty.

Voluntary Human Extinction Movement

White Wednesdays

Western Cape Anti-Eviction Campaign South African movement struggling against evictions

Wikimedia movement

Women Against War

Woman's Exchange Movement

Women's liberation movement

Women's suffrage movement

World Cleanup Day

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_movements

 

As you can see, some of them are nothing more than conspiracy theories.  But the most important ones developed into cornerstones of our current culture.   

And every one of them happened well before "cancel culture"  (in its current form) was even a "thing".

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, soon said:

Lots of good points.

The pandemic must be an odd predicament for identity-based circles of affinity. Whether that be identity politics people on one side or identitarians on he right. Leaving digital as the only realm to assert identity and gather in identity-based groupings during the pandemic. And I believe those two groups to be the most engaged in cancel culture. So perhaps there is a flare up in cancel culture that Im not seeing because its happening in corners of the online world that I dont check out. Those groups that used to love to don helmets and scream at each other in parks or campuses wouldn't know what else to do with themselves. But for me, if Im honest, it seems like the cancelling thing already came and went. Public figures in my little corner of the internet who've been cancelled in the last two years mostly just responded with "No Im not" and carried on their successful careers. 

Im told the only difference irl with me is that I'm armed with a heavy cane :lol:

Im really thankful that you mentioned that book. Im going to check it out. Y'know a few years back a buddy of mine was studying journalism and then he switched to new media. And at the time no matter how much he explained what he would even study about it, I couldnt wrap my head around it. I was like, "So you're gonna study cute cat videos and farting-in-the-library prank videos?" And now, all I want to do is consume critical new media analysis and tech philosophy. It all happened so fast! Thanks for mentioning the book!

Personally I would rather deal with cancel culture that, whether you agree with it or not, is for the most part genuine and making a concerted effort or point over troll culture.

When one's identity, through the anonymous nature of the internet, is based on active shitting on everything for the sole purpose of getting arise out of others is too much for me.  There are far worse things on the internet than cancel culture even in its worst forms.  

The Shallows is an old book, I think ten or eleven years old.  So it predates cancel culture and only touches upon social media as it was only in its infantile form in both its use and understanding.  It's essentially an attempt by Carr to include the internet into Marshall McLuhan's "the medium is the message" ethos.  I'm only 70 pages in and still in historical overview part of the book that examines how humanity's ability to conceptualize, process and understand information has been affected by the mediums at various stages of societal development.  It's quite interesting even if it doesn't dive right into social network's hotwiring of political discourse.  

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1 hour ago, Angelica said:


 

Thanks 🤣 
 

Trying to cancel or erase cinema (the most collaborative art form there is) because someone problematic worked on it is just fucking stupid. It’s book burning level stupid.

I respect the rights of anyone to *personally* vote with their wallet and not support projects based on the people involved but that should be the end of it. 

This is besides the point but I'd argue videogames are the most collaborative art form but other than that yeah I agree with you, as usual. I don't think I've ever not agreed with you actually...and you're an Aussie!? :lol:

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20 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

This is besides the point but I'd argue videogames are the most collaborative art form but other than that yeah I agree with you, as usual. I don't think I've ever not agreed with you actually...and you're an Aussie!? :lol:

Yep 🤣❤️

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8 hours ago, Ace Nova said:

Right. 

The issues I was referring to that should be handled in a "pragmatic way" are the issues in your 2nd paragraph. 

I'm not sure if you missed it but I've stated that the major criminal justice cases, "monsters", etc where there already is an overwhelming amount of evidence...those aren't the problem with "cancel culture". 

The major issues get handled at a faster pace in 2020 with the help of technology but those major issues have always been handled by society.  

When it comes to criminal and social justice reform, those major issues still need to go through the judicial system and/or congress....regardless of any movement.  And even after it goes through the judicial system/congress, etc...society still needs to accept it as being a part of its new "culture".

For example; there have been a myriad of "social movements" in the history of the U.S.   A good portion of them would be considered "abominations" in 2020.  Many of them were created, followed but eventually evolved or lost momentum.   The most important ones helped form our current culture.  We can even go back further into world history, etc. 

But for now, we can look at the U.S. as an example....

 

9/11 Truth movement

Alternative movement

Animal rights movement

Animal Rebellion

Anti-Apartheid Movement

Anti-capitalism

Anti-consumerism

Anti-corporate activism

Anti-fascism

Anti-globalization movement

Anti-jock movement

Anti-liberalism

Anti-nuclear movement

Anti-psychiatry movement

Anti-war movement

Anti-vaccination movement

Asian American movement

Autism rights movement movement advocating for the right of people who are considered neurally divergent (anti-psychiatry)

Black Consciousness Movement

Black Lives Matter

Black Power movement

Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions

Brights movement

Chicano Movement

Children's rights movement

Civil rights movement

Conservation movement

Counterculture movement

Cooperative movement

Cultural movement

Decolonization

Disability rights movement

Earth First!

Ecofeminism

Ecomasculinity

Economy for the Common Good

Effective altruism

Efficiency movement

Environmental justice movement

Environmental movement

Esperanto movement

Ethiopian movement

Extinction Rebellion

Fair trade movement

Farm-to-table movement

Farm Worker Movement

Feminist movement

Free culture movement

Free love

Free school movement

Free software movement

Gay rights movement

Gerakan Harapan Baru (New Hope Movement in Malaysia)

Global citizens movement

Global justice movement

Health at Every Size

Health freedom movement

Hippie movement

Hizmet movement

Human rights movement

Identitarian movement

Immigrant rights movement

India Against Corruption

Indigenous peoples movement

Indigenous movements in the Americas

2017 pro-jallikattu protests

Ku Klux Klan

Labor movement

Landless Peoples Movement (South Africa)

Landless Workers' Movement (MST), the landless workers' movement in Brasil

Lawyers' Movement in Pakistan

Lebensreform

LGBTQ social movements (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender social movements)

Mad Pride (psychiatric social movement)

March For Our Lives movement

Men's rights movement

Me Too movement

Mothers Against Drunk Driving

Multiculturalism

Namantar Andolan (Change Movement among Dalits in India)

Narmada Bachao Andolan

National Cleanup Day

Non-cooperation movement

Nonviolence movement

Occupy movement

Occupy Wall Street

Organic movement

Plogging

Popular Assembly of the Peoples of Oaxaca

Pro-choice movement

Pro-life movement

Psychiatric survivors movement

Rape crisis movement

Rastafari movement

Reform movements in the United States

Reproductive justice

Right to health

Right to life

Rural People's Movement

Scouting Movement

Salt March (Salt Satyagraha movement)

Skeptical movement

Sex-positive movement

Sex Workers' Rights Movement

Slow Food movement

Slow movement

Situationist International

Social democracy

South African Unemployed Peoples' Movement

Soviet Jewry Movement

Student movement

Sunrise Movement

Tea Party movement

Temperance movement

The Zeitgeist Movement

Time to Change

Time's Up (movement)

TrashTag Movement

Treatment Action Campaign - movement struggling for HIV/AIDS treatment in South Africa

Umbrella Movement

Veganism

Via Campesina - international peasants movement representing 150 million people, advocating food sovereignty.

Voluntary Human Extinction Movement

White Wednesdays

Western Cape Anti-Eviction Campaign South African movement struggling against evictions

Wikimedia movement

Women Against War

Woman's Exchange Movement

Women's liberation movement

Women's suffrage movement

World Cleanup Day

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_movements

 

As you can see, some of them are nothing more than conspiracy theories.  But the most important ones developed into cornerstones of our current culture.   

And every one of them happened well before "cancel culture"  (in its current form) was even a "thing".

 

 

 

 

you forgot shark week

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On 8/11/2020 at 12:23 PM, alfierose said:

I listened to a podcast the other day that touched on the areas of social media, social justice and cancel culture. One of the points made, a good one that I hadn't really considered is that whilst social justice in itself isn't an inherently bad thing - who doesn't want a fairer society, the way it gets enacted is akin to a religious like fervour. Of course actual religious based societies have behaved similarly in the past but for the most part religion, or culture that springs from religious teaching has allowed for the concept of redemption - a person has an opportunity to repent, make amends and be welcomed back to the fold so to speak. This seems to be a concept largely lacking in cancel culture (to be clear I'm talking about things like causing offence, inappropriate behaviour etc...not mass serial killers or anything like that).

I'm not at all religious but I thought it was an interesting point in how we build an increasingly secular society and get it right.

Nick Cave expressed similar thoughts recently:

https://www.theredhandfiles.com/what-is-mercy-for-you/

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17 hours ago, downzy said:

Personally I would rather deal with cancel culture that, whether you agree with it or not, is for the most part genuine and making a concerted effort or point over troll culture.

Theres merit to that position. However imo it is quickly complicated by the fact that the Idenitiarians I mentioned (rebranded white supremacists, alt right) trolled themselves into existence. And they are involved in cancel culture a lot - so it gets murky. Like in the twisted world of the alt right "Fake News" is at its core a troll. But a troll come to life so now its real to them ("meme magic"). I suppose one needs to understand the Kek phenomenon to see that there is no division between trolling and reality in some of those alt right spaces. (Kek is an alt right 'deity' that they act in service of)

Im also cynical that there are always good intentions even among liberals. I think thats where the "culture" part of the label has become so key in understanding it. Canceling has been spoken of for years. But it has now become the way that some people do socials. Its how they seek and form community. It is how they exist as a culture. Its centred on likes and attention just like all socials are designed to be. Id suspect its a natural outcropping of the way they design socials for addictive behaviours to form around them. And I still believe that Cancel Culture on the left-of-centre is a neoliberal stance which is not focused on justice so much as it is focused on desire. Often a desire to assert ones purer identity. To see their face projected in the the sky of Capital City... and get hella likes from it. We dont see any effort for restorative or transformative change & justice. Just things being torched. Thats no sort of moral high ground.

I've witnessed some complete nonsense that must have been part of some larger subterfuge and not related to allegations. The Justice Democrats scandal comes to mind, not sure if thats something you had followed? (Justice Democrats are the people who ran AOC)

17 hours ago, downzy said:

The Shallows is an old book, I think ten or eleven years old.  So it predates cancel culture and only touches upon social media as it was only in its infantile form in both its use and understanding.  It's essentially an attempt by Carr to include the internet into Marshall McLuhan's "the medium is the message" ethos.  I'm only 70 pages in and still in historical overview part of the book that examines how humanity's ability to conceptualize, process and understand information has been affected by the mediums at various stages of societal development.  It's quite interesting even if it doesn't dive right into social network's hotwiring of political discourse.  

Very cool, thanks for info. Looking froward to it. Seems like a very Canadian thing, speaking of McLuhan, to sit back and take on the role of trying to figure what the fuck everyone else is even talking about lol Like a Peace Keeping role.

The books theme remind me of The Sum of All Fears. Ive just watched it and was taken aback by how its essentially about the anxieties of a post cold war world (AKA "the end of history") with the emergence of global communications adding another layer of complexity and anxiety to the emergent world order. Peoples beepers and cell phones got a lot of screen time. Essentially its about having all these global communication tools to fight a now extinct empire and then trying to figure out 'who is the enemy and how do we disseminate them via these new communication technologies?' Seemed familiar to this issue of cancel culture. 

(Anyways, I respect that you are a busy person. So I wanted to mention that I appreciate your taking the time for your earlier responses. Always interested to hear more of course, and Id look forward to it, but did want to acknowledge you being generous with your time. Thanks!)

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On 2020-08-11 at 6:31 PM, Ace Nova said:

I'm not sure if you missed it but I've stated that the major criminal justice cases, "monsters", etc where there already is an overwhelming amount of evidence...those aren't the problem with "cancel culture". 

The major issues get handled at a faster pace in 2020 with the help of technology but those major issues have always been handled by society.  

When it comes to criminal and social justice reform, those major issues still need to go through the judicial system and/or congress....regardless of any movement.  And even after it goes through the judicial system/congress, etc...society still needs to accept it as being a part of its new "culture".

For example; there have been a myriad of "social movements" in the history of the U.S.   A good portion of them would be considered "abominations" in 2020.  Many of them were created, followed but eventually evolved or lost momentum.   The most important ones helped form our current culture.  We can even go back further into world history, etc. 

But for now, we can look at the U.S. as an example....

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

Look, the point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't judge cancel culture with such broad strokes.  On both large and small issues, it can be a force for positive change but can also have its disadvantages and negatives.  It's not necessarily some monolithic and homogenous force even if it appears or feels that way, though performative and bandwaggoning are common characteristics that can take on a life of their own.  

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On 12/08/2020 at 3:58 AM, Oldest Goat said:

This is besides the point but I'd argue videogames are the most collaborative art form but other than that yeah I agree with you, as usual. I don't think I've ever not agreed with you actually...and you're an Aussie!? :lol:

Cinema is pretty fuckin’ collaborative.  Its the one job where its almost impossible for any party to benefit from another doing a less than stellar job, its all basically designed for the actor(s) to do well and the scene to come out correct..and for that to happen everyone needs to support everybody else.

And videogames ain’t an art form arseface :P 

 

Edited by Len Cnut
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18 hours ago, downzy said:

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

Look, the point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't judge cancel culture with such broad strokes.  On both large and small issues, it can be a force for positive change but can also have its disadvantages and negatives.  It's not necessarily some monolithic and homogenous force even if it appears or feels that way, though performative and bandwaggoning are common characteristics that can take on a life of their own.  

I'm not going to start a "movement" against it, if that's what you mean, lol.  But I think we should all "call out" cancel culture if/when we think something is "over the top", etc etc etc.

 

Would you consider what happened with the G N'R videos/music being taken down, all over the internet, etc a "product" of cancel culture? 

Although it wasn't supported by a "mob" of people, the end result "Canceled" our ability to post G N' R music, concert videos,etc on the longest running and largest GN'R fan forum in the world.  The "target " so to speak, wasn't "G N' R" but it was meant to "cancel" a huge part of this forum's culture.  The "pressure" was put on Youtube, Google, this forum, etc etc to "remove" the videos/music or (possibly) face legal action, etc.  :max:

And I apologize if I may have forgotten details about what happened.  If we're not supposed to discuss it, let me know, I'll edit/erase this post. :huh:

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On FM terrestrial radio one moment ago, the following foundation repair companies ad,

"Hey Digger I hear you have a crack problem..." A word play about people who try to attempt their own foundation repairs.

The station who played it is pretty progressive too. I dont think that is a wise, funny or likely to be a successful ad, but I also note it just aired.

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38 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Amber Heard is a narcissistic sociopath.

Why does literally everyone say that? :lol:  I’ve not really been following the case but it seems an awful lot like people are having a hard time entertaining the notion that Ed Sisscorhands might be capable of peeling off a right hander on his missus.

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27 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Why does literally everyone say that? :lol:  I’ve not really been following the case but it seems an awful lot like people are having a hard time entertaining the notion that Ed Sisscorhands might be capable of peeling off a right hander on his missus.

Depp seems to have this aura or charisma, or likeability factor around him, for lack of a better word. That's probably why a lot of people think he's the victim here. As for this case, I haven't been following it either, so I have no idea. I know that Depp is an alcoholic and drug user, so it's not that hard to believe that he might have slapped her once or twice during a fight.

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6 minutes ago, EvanG said:

Depp seems to have this aura or charisma, or likeability factor around him, for lack of a better word. That's probably why a lot of people think he's the victim here. As for this case, I haven't been following it either, so I have no idea. I know that Depp is an alcoholic and drug user, so it's not that hard to believe that he might have slapped her once or twice during a fight.

I’ve seen one video of him stomping around a kitchen in an eggy mood slamming cupboard doors and then tripping when he realises he’s being filmed...not that that’s a smoking gun and as I say I haven’t been following closely, I do like Depp though, very much so in certain films, though you sort of get the feeling that he is innocent by default in some peoples eyes, speaking about a lot of what you hear from fans, he has that sort of ex-heartthrob fanbase that its difficult to fuck with.

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43 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Why does literally everyone say that? :lol:  I’ve not really been following the case but it seems an awful lot like people are having a hard time entertaining the notion that Ed Sisscorhands might be capable of peeling off a right hander on his missus.

No, it's nothing like that.

I've followed the case a bit and I've listened to a recorded phone conversation between Heard and Depp where they both acknowledge she is repetitively physically violent and every time she has a meltdown - he leaves and removes himself from the situation. And she whines and gaslights him saying him leaving and not engaging in her meltdowns makes her feel unsafe like he doesn't care lol.

She is a manipulative cunt.

P.S. I'm not a huge fan of Depp and before looking into it I assumed she was right and he was in the wrong but no it's the other way around.

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8 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I’ve seen one video of him stomping around a kitchen in an eggy mood slamming cupboard doors and then tripping when he realises he’s being filmed...not that that’s a smoking gun and as I say I haven’t been following closely, I do like Depp though, very much so in certain films, though you sort of get the feeling that he is innocent by default in some peoples eyes, speaking about a lot of what you hear from fans, he has that sort of ex-heartthrob fanbase that its difficult to fuck with.

I think I've seen that, I read that he just lost his mother and was going through a hard time. At least he's not being violent to her in that video. But I don't know, I don't condone violence, but if your missus is beating you up, you have the right to defend yourself.

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1 minute ago, EvanG said:

I think I've seen that, I read that he just lost his mother and was going through a hard time. At least he's not being violent to her in that video. But I don't know, I don't condone violence, but if your missus is beating you up, you have the right to defend yourself.

In her own words he leaves every time 'she' brings violence into the relationship. She's been caught lying about things. At this point it's very clear she's the abuser.

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