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33 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I certainly didn't say that! In fact I even pointed out above that there are legal asylum seekers.

So when are you going to house some asylum seekers Dazey? After all I'm sure you have the space, and you are such the eager advocate - such the good samaritan - more so than the majority of the country who elected a right-wing conservative government (the fact the government is a busted flush on this issue being neither here nor there)? When is this happening? Have you decorated their room yet?

More Waitrosey hypocrisy.

This is definitely among your top 10 hilarious examples of hypocrisies:

If you are in favor of immigration you should house them yourself!! And if you are not willing to do that you are a hypocrite!! 

:lol:

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31 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

By the way, I thought (Brexit) Britain was this horrendously racist little island with few prospects, and that the EU was this benign peace loving progressive internationalist project which single-handedly erected world peace? Why are asylum seekers departing the latter (specifically France) for the former then? It doesn't make sense!

They are obviously coming for your fish. 

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1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

This is definitely among your top 10 hilarious examples of hypocrisies:

If you are in favor of immigration you should house them yourself!! And if you are not willing to do that you are a hypocrite!! 

:lol:

But I didn't say that. Stop fabricating Soul.

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2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

But I didn't say that. Stop fabricating Soul.

"So when are you going to house some asylum seekers Dazey? After all I'm sure you have the space, and you are such the eager advocate - such the good samaritan - more so than the majority of the country who elected a right-wing conservative government (the fact the government is a busted flush on this issue being neither here nor there)? When is this happening? Have you decorated their room yet?

More Waitrosey hypocrisy."

:lol:

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Just now, SoulMonster said:

They are obviously coming for your fish. 

I do not know why you and Dazey are so facetious on this point. Maritime trade and industry was a livelihood for millions of people in the United Kingdom and has established thousands of communities throughout the United Kingdom. Our maritime communities are certainly something I care about, as do many others.  

Just now, SoulMonster said:

"So when are you going to house some asylum seekers Dazey? After all I'm sure you have the space, and you are such the eager advocate - such the good samaritan - more so than the majority of the country who elected a right-wing conservative government (the fact the government is a busted flush on this issue being neither here nor there)? When is this happening? Have you decorated their room yet?

More Waitrosey hypocrisy."

:lol:

Your fabricated quote used the word ''immigrants'', and failed to discern the nuance between legal refugee applicants and illegal boat crossings. 

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4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I do not know why you and Dazey are so facetious on this point. Maritime trade and industry was a livelihood for millions of people in the United Kingdom and has established thousands of communities throughout the United Kingdom. Our maritime communities are certainly something I care about, as do many others. 

So I was spot on. You don't care about little kids dying, you are afraid you will have to share room with an immigrant who eats your fish. 

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5 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I do not know why you and Dazey are so facetious on this point. Maritime trade and industry was a livelihood for millions of people in the United Kingdom and has established thousands of communities throughout the United Kingdom. Our maritime communities are certainly something I care about, as do many others.  

Sorry for off topic, but Im curious about the following,

Here there is a genre of novelist (and folk songwriter) who's work is rooted in the maritime experience. Not usually about being at sea, usually more about the land and the fishermen return, the off season, working class traditions, etc. 

Maritime novelist are often very poetic and romantic. And they are steeped in the customs of the Irish and Scottish who settled the area. Do you have that same tradition of novelist in the UK maritime communities?

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The hypocrisy of the woked middle classes,

- allow everyone into the country basically, whilst possessing the largest houses in the more desirable parts of the country, oft secured with fencing and security cameras; certainly not living in urban areas like Birmingham or London, with poor tenement housing and crime.

- cut carbon emissions and pollutants (whilst being the biggest abusers of air travel).

- Save the animals (whilst gorging on a sirloin steak)

- ''BLM'' (whilst paying a black housemaid $1 per hour to clean your bog)

- Remain in the EU and allow European migration (whilst working for a European affiliated conglomerate, not the reality faced by a bricklayer or taxidriver). 

Edited by DieselDaisy
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3 minutes ago, soon said:

Sorry for off topic, but Im curious about the following,

Here there is a genre of novelist (and folk songwriter) who's work is rooted in the maritime experience. Not usually about being at sea, usually more about the land and the fishermen return, the off season, working class traditions, etc. 

Maritime novelist are often very poetic and romantic. And they are steeped in the customs of the Irish and Scottish who settled the area. Do you have that same tradition of novelist in the UK maritime communities?

I don't know about novels (obviously there is some of that in novels like Treasure Island, Robinson Crusoe and such like) but there is the tradition of sea shanties. Sea shanties were popular-folk work songs sang by ships' crews. Here is wiki's article on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_shanty. They are still performed by modern folk musicians. 

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3 hours ago, Dazey said:

I think you misunderstand me. What Diesel is trying to say is that there is a crisis in the UK because a few hundred people a month turn up in rubber dinghys in Dover when the French take in many times the number of refugees that the UK does. Farage and co would have you believe that we are being overrun by people just after a free house and a life on government benefits and that none of them are refugees. I'm basically agreeing with you on this.  

They are asylum seekers at that point. There is another long process they have to go through to apply for refugee status (Indefinite leave to remain) and only then are able to claim any public funds. It's a grim existence as an asylum seeker.

You get dispersed to certain shithole locations around the UK (my home town being one 😂). If your claim isn't immediately rejected they are put up in shared digs paid for by the Home Office and given a small amount to live off. Your not allowed to look for work or claim any sort of benefits. When your granted Refugee status your simultaneously given your eviction notice from home office accomodation. So on the same day you become homeless. Not too bad if your a family but especially from Syria there are lots of single males who won't be rehoused by the local authority. I found one guy a space in a local hostel which is in a notoriously dodgy area. This guy had travelled through Europe in a lorry, spent time in that jungle camp in Calais and within an hour of talking with me about re settling in Wales stood up, shouted fuck knows what, walked out of the building and into oncoming traffic 😁 What a fucking scene.

This fella had been tortured and had PTSD. Most have genuinely had major fucked up experiences and can struggle even with things like walking down the street and see an old biddy with a dog and freak out because particularly in Iraq the police had dogs which they used to set on them and stuff like that.

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2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

The hypocrisy of the woked middle classes,

- allow everyone into the country basically, whilst possessing the largest houses in the more desirable parts of the country, oft secured with fencing and security cameras; certainly not living in urban areas like Birmingham or London, with poor tenement housing and crime.

- cut carbon emissions and pollutants (whilst being the biggest abusers of air travel).

- Save the animals (whilst gorging on a sirloin steak)

- ''BLM'' (whilst paying a black housemaid $1 per hour to clean your bog)

- Remain in the EU and allow European migration (whilst working for a European affiliated conglomerate, not the reality faced by a bricklayer or taxidriver). 

You forgot to connect the first two points, they're for allowing mass immigration and a growth of the population to levels it simply wouldn't be without, thus raising carbon emissions...but also hammering on that we are nearing the tipping point of not being able to reverse climate change and need to reduce carbon emissions. They are not able to square the circle there. They can't simultaneously hold both positions with a straight face (well they can, but they shouldn't be allowed to).

21 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Glorious. Since Ben and Jerry's went woke their UK sales have utterly collapsed apparently. Tubs now half price in most supermarkets. 

The real winners of wokeness...the consumer!

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8 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Glorious. Since Ben and Jerry's went woke their UK sales have utterly collapsed apparently. Tubs now half price in most supermarkets. 

So, again, they were founded by Bernie Sanders types in Vermont in the 70s and have been a fair-trade, philanthropical, Occupy supporter, etc the entire time. They were since purchased by Unilever who are much more doggedly capitalistic.

So your premise that theyve recently gone woke is perplexing. But then again, actual wokeism is a neoliberal corporate kind of a thing. So in this instance, even with you very wrong understanding of wokeness and Ben and Jerrys historical brand actions, you are correct that under their previous ownership they wouldnt necessarily qualify as woke because they were into social justice before the concept of woke even emerged (indeed neoliberalism was only born around the same time that they launched). And now that they are corporate, they actually can be labeled as "woke." 

But they didnt 'go woke, get broke' as you are trying to suggest. They've made a fortune with a responsible and thoughtful business model for like 50 years. Unilever thought they could sell the responsible brand image without keeping its commitment to those things its branded with, like environmental values and workers rights.

2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

I don't know about novels (obviously there is some of that in novels like Treasure Island, Robinson Crusoe and such like) but there is the tradition of sea shanties. Sea shanties were popular-folk work songs sang by ships' crews. Here is wiki's article on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_shanty. They are still performed by modern folk musicians. 

Thanks for this! Fascinating stuff! Likely an early instance of cultures from across the oceans having such a direct cross pollination and influence on one another, due to the international nature of seafare. And its almost ominous to me how the songs were used to mechanize the workers - like industrializing their movements, all kept in pace with the shanty! Neat!

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7 minutes ago, soon said:

So, again, they were founded by Bernie Sanders types in Vermont in the 70s and have been a fair-trade, philanthropical, Occupy supporter, etc the entire time. They were since purchased by Unilever who are much more doggedly capitalistic.

So your premise that theyve recently gone woke is perplexing. But then again, actual wokeism is a neoliberal corporate kind of a thing. So in this instance, even with you very wrong understanding of wokeness and Ben and Jerrys historical brand actions, you are correct that under their previous ownership they wouldnt necessarily qualify as woke because they were into social justice before the concept of woke even emerged (indeed neoliberalism was only born around the same time that they launched). And now that they are corporate, they actually can be labeled as "woke." 

But they didnt 'go woke, get broke' as you are trying to suggest. They've made a fortune with a responsible and thoughtful business model for like 50 years. Unilever thought they could sell the responsible brand image without keeping its commitment to those things its branded with, like environmental values and workers rights.

Well let's say they pretend that they're a company ran by a couple of weirdo beardo hippies in Vermont making homemade tubs of ice cream, which makes their attempts at wokeness all the more hypocritical. Hypocrisy is seemingly inherent to woke. 

So we have the ''representatives'' of Unilever advocating wokery, Unilever the same company who,

- sell skin whitening products in Asian markets!

- are guilty of deforestation in Indonesia for the palm oil industry!

- guilty of plastic pollution!

- had a scandal involving the exporting of Mexican slave labour!

It is the same as Lewis Hamilton who said that all symbols of slavery should be pulled down, despite driving/advertising Mercedes and wearing/advertising Hugo Boss (Mercedes were the cars of choice for the Third Reich whilst Hugo Boss kitted out the SS). 

You keep calling me ''right wing'' whereas I am anything of the sort. In reality, above all else, I'm anti-hypocrisy.

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4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Well let's say they pretend that they're a company ran by a couple of weirdo beardo hippies in Vermont making homemade tubs of ice cream, which makes their attempts at wokeness all the more hypocritical. Hypocrisy is seemingly inherent to woke. 

So we have the ''representatives'' of Unilever advocating wokery, Unilever the same company who,

- sell skin whitening products in Asian markets!

- are guilty of deforestation in Indonesia for the palm oil industry!

- guilty of plastic pollution!

- had a scandal involving the exporting of Mexican slave labour!

It is the same as Lewis Hamilton who said that all symbols of slavery should be pulled down, despite driving/advertising Mercedes and wearing/advertising Hugo Boss (Mercedes were the cars of choice for the Third Reich whilst Hugo Boss kitted out the SS). 

You keep calling me ''right wing'' whereas I am anything of the sort. In reality, above all else, I'm anti-hypocrisy.

So you agree with me... but you are presenting it as if you have just disagreed with me?? :question:

Yes, capitalism is full of hypocrisy. Or "contradiction" is sometimes a useful term as well.

Also, so like when someone asks you if you like BoJo, youd respond "Im an anti-hypocrcist" and then theyd know your political leanings??

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6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You keep calling me ''right wing'' whereas I am anything of the sort. In reality, above all else, I'm anti-hypocrisy.

Then we look forward to your thousands of posts chastising hypocrisy by people on the far-right as soon as you are through with attacking immigration, climate change mitigation, recycling, BLM, anti-racism, anti-Trump haha. 

 

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7 minutes ago, soon said:

So you agree with me... but you are presenting it as if you have just disagreed with me?? :question:

Yes, capitalism is full of hypocrisy. Or "contradiction" is sometimes a useful term as well.

Also, so like when someone asks you if you like BoJo, youd respond "Im an anti-hypocrcist" and then theyd know your political leanings??

I think there is an agreement somewhere in there.

I neither vote for Johnson nor support him.

5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Then we look forward to your thousands of posts chastising hypocrisy by people on the far-right as soon as you are through with attacking immigration, climate change mitigation, recycling, BLM, anti-racism, anti-Trump haha. 

 

Are these meant to be left-wing causes? Not in my area. 

PS

As I said, no problem whatsoever if somebody mouths off at climate change, impediments to immigration, espouses BLM etc etc. Provided,

- Desist from flying, driving and consuming meat

- personally housed asylum seekers

Heck, I'd applaud that person. 

Edited by DieselDaisy
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4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I neither vote for Johnson nor support him.

6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I didnt mean to state that you did. Although your Brexit Boner seemed to point in his direction. :lol:

So if someone asks you about your political leanings youd say that you are "Anti-hypocracy?"

(Which would mean that youd have to be deeply critical of capitalism! :dance:)

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1 minute ago, soon said:

I didnt mean to state that you did. Although your Brexit Boner seemed to point in his direction. :lol:

If you really hate neo-liberalism then you should really hate the European Union. 

1 minute ago, soon said:

So if someone asks you about your political leanings youd say that you are "Anti-hypocracy?"

I'd say, ''politicians? They're all a bunch of cunts''. 

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3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

If you really hate neo-liberalism then you should really hate the European Union. 

I'd say, ''politicians? They're all a bunch of cunts''. 

I try my best to practice a self-inventory/reflection to avoid letting anything but love figure into my politics. Its hard with so many daft and uninformed script readers. But Im definitely more successful at centring love in my macro political views. So no, I do not "hate" neoliberalism. I hate the misery is causes because I love the people and creation.

I hate the suffering that EU played party to with austerity in Greece, for example. I fully supported insurrectionary action as well as above ground movements to fight the austerity. Still do.

But Brexit was ill conceived and based on the language of fear and the most ignorant forms of nationalism. When you've got monarchists talking about freeing themselves from something other than the monarchy, and never monarchy, its not something Im gonna lace up for! It also attacked my age group by ensuring a further erosion of average quality of life. And it did that because it was reckless and reactionary.

So you oppose capitalism because you are anti-hypocracy and you dont care for political leadership? You are an anarchist!! :P:lol: Well, as long as you hope to found a republic that is :lol:

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12 hours ago, soon said:

I try my best to practice a self-inventory/reflection to avoid letting anything but love figure into my politics. Its hard with so many daft and uninformed script readers. But Im definitely more successful at centring love in my macro political views. So no, I do not "hate" neoliberalism. I hate the misery is causes because I love the people and creation.

I hate the suffering that EU played party to with austerity in Greece, for example. I fully supported insurrectionary action as well as above ground movements to fight the austerity. Still do.

But Brexit was ill conceived and based on the language of fear and the most ignorant forms of nationalism. When you've got monarchists talking about freeing themselves from something other than the monarchy, and never monarchy, its not something Im gonna lace up for! It also attacked my age group by ensuring a further erosion of average quality of life. And it did that because it was reckless and reactionary.

So you oppose capitalism because you are anti-hypocracy and you dont care for political leadership? You are an anarchist!! :P:lol: Well, as long as you hope to found a republic that is :lol:

Not sure I see the relevance of the United Kingdom being a monarchy? ''Insurrectionary action''? Manning the barricades with Molotov cocktails? Suppose you admire the Tamil Tigers, Al Queda, ISIS, IRA, the ETA? 

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Im inclined to think its good for Lydon to think critically about pops appropriation of black culture(s). At the same time the Pistols kinda seemed to represent a 'back to the roots of rock n roll' kinda approach - they sound more like chuck berry and little richard then many in the years just before the Pistols.

In Lydons defence the most Chuck Berry-ish aspects of The Pistols were down to Steve Jones more than anything, had they made a Lydon-led album I imagine it'd sound very different.  And further to Lydons defence it was the first and last vaguely rock-sounding album he was ever involved in, he hated all that stuff, openly trying to subvert it whilst in The Pistols.

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We live in such a racist society that supporting Palestine is considered radical 

Its a bit more than that, its pretty much considered supporting terrorism, isn't it?  Myself I have kinda shied away from having a true stance on the matter because I don't feel I know enough about politics in general and the history of the whole area to be justified in shooting my mouth off, though you obviously hear lots from here and there.  Suffice to say if people are denied the right to live and be free its an awful thing.  But nobody cares, not really, I say this all the time but people would understand politics a lot more if they took a more business-like approach.  Cuz thats all it is, business, money, profiteering.  If its in the majorities finanical interest for a certain people to be hard done by they will be hard done by and the world, by and large, won't give a warm shit about it.

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I suppose we all live in a constant web of contradictions. Its my opinion that many of those contradictions are imposed on us by having to exist in a capitalist/racist society - in that we are forced to navigate interactions with our fellow humans in a way that is mediated by the claims, structures and contradictions in the system. I think there is equal value in calling out things like appropriation and also accepting contradictions in a humble, gentle way. 

Thats my way of saying that while they are just human like us all, I like the Clash and their reggae stuff too!

 

I agree but then when you're very harsh and 'stalinist', to quote Strummer himself, in your approach people expect consistency to a point of view.  God bless em, I think they were trying to do a good thing.  Ended up opening up Shea Stadium for The Who, which was sort of the end of them as a band and I respect that.  When they realised they weren't the audience anymore they stopped being the band.  Thats admirable. 

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Im a big believer in the power of folklore. I observe that cultures with stronger storytelling traditions usually are more successful in resistance. I think we in the west have largely disconnected from like, around the campfire folklore and legends. I think a band like the Clash kinda infuse culture with a bit of that? Much like Rage? In folk tradition many of Rages lyrics are basically ballads because they tell a story arch. 

Did ya ever hear of the Strummer fire?  Its a thing he started at Glastonbury and apparently his people have been carrying it on ever since, starting great big fires and everyone getting around the fire and trading stories etc etc.  Ties into what you're saying, kind of.  He had a very boys own approach to life which, ironically, you could argue, is a product of his British public school (what yous call private school) education.  He was the son of a diplomat y'know, not quite the working class hero, background-wise.  Went to a very stiff boarding school in Surrey.  More of those contradictions. 

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I think I share your prospective on them - a product of their environment. It was 'real' and instead of tying themselves in philosophical knots and purity testing they went ahead and put their thoughts to tape.

I think its important to wade through the philosophical knots.  I mean The Clash were kind of about that.  But as you say, its important not to get bogged down. 

I love that you know them!!!

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They would identify as Vanguardist. Meaning they wanted to inspire the people. Opposite of terrorizing the people. The Porno thing was maybe a bit less organized though. The Hydro plant was in solidarity with a strike, IIRC. Everyone Ive met is a sweet heart. I came super close to getting to doing a project with one of them! Like within an englishmens dick length of working together. Theyre more in the writing their second books phase of life now, of course.

Oh yeah but you know what I mean, thats how they get painted, radical leftist terrorists etc.  At any rate they had a lot of fuckin' balls though I'm not sure I'm the kid to be called for when it comes time to start firebombing. 

Edited by Len Cnut
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