"Cancel Culture" Opinions?

[Ace Nova]

2 minutes ago, soon said:

 Again, I assert that even though cancel culture presents itself as being progressive, it doesnt align with any progressive movements very well. Its a neoliberal trip, masquerading as progressive. It is focused on the wants of the individual (identity) and ignores the big picture (material).  

Wow.  I pretty much agree with everything here.  Well said!

(And I would add it masquerades itself as "many other things" as well.  None being what it truly is, once you get past the surface.  )

[SoulMonster]

Celebrities, politicians and corporations will just have to accept that the new reality is that a large number of people can now through the power of internet be mobilized to quickly go after you. I don't say this because I think it is okay, but because I don't see how this can be reversed. The outcome can be devastating. Usually such attacks are fair but with little time for contemplation and second-thoughts mistakes are bound to be made. 

The new today is that what you did before can come back to haunt you. We don't accept any mistakes. Time gone by does not provide indulgences. We never forget. It's harsh and it is cruel. But it also is indicative of fluctuating morality, of a time when there is less acceptance of racism, misogyny, and sexism than before. If you balanced on the precipice before, or do it now, you may have a hard time coming for you. The pendulum is still in motion.

[Ace Nova]

@soon

Stop adding things to your posts after I "like" them.  You post something I completely agree with, I like it....then you add something "political" that I may not agree with...so I need to "unlike" it.

[soon]

47 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

Wait.....I think you're missing the point. *I'm* not afraid of sharing my thoughts. 

The thread is about the cancel culture that goes on online, not my own personal thoughts and opinions. 

I made the thread to get others opinions on it. 

Oh I gotcha now. Thanks for clarifying.

Still, I wouldnt stress abut it.

[RussTCB]

1 minute ago, soon said:

Oh I gotcha now. Thanks for clarifying.

Still, I wouldnt stress abut it.

You're welcome. I mean, you've heard my show. You know I'm not scared to share my opinions, especially when it comes to art haha. 

I'm not stressed per se, just cautious about where this is heading, ya know? 

[soon]

2 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

You're welcome. I mean, you've heard my show. You know I'm not scared to share my opinions, especially when it comes to art haha. 

I'm not stressed per se, just cautious about where this is heading, ya know? 

Very true about your show! Everyone should check out the new episode. One just dropped, right?

Cautious makes sense to me. And I guess Id have to describe myself in that same way. I find this to be a fascinating time to be alive and the way Im wired these modern issues are just neat thoughts to explore. Even if the thing is 'bad' like the excesses of cancel culture Im inclined to just enjoy thinking about it. And producing thoughts to counter it. Which is also in a sense what you've done with this thread, I think.

Its my opinion that some thoughts that counter cancel culture are just as bad and incorrect as cancel culture, itself. We need to also be cautious of not canceling dissenting voices under the guise that they are 'cancel culture.'

 

[RussTCB]

2 minutes ago, soon said:

Very true about your show! Everyone should check out the new episode. One just dropped, right?

Cautious makes sense to me. And I guess Id have to describe myself in that same way. I find this to be a fascinating time to be alive and the way Im wired these modern issues are just neat thoughts to explore. Even if the thing is 'bad' like the excesses of cancel culture Im inclined to just enjoy thinking about it. And producing thoughts to counter it. Which is also in a sense what you've done with this thread, I think.

Its my opinion that some thoughts that counter cancel culture are just as bad and incorrect as cancel culture, itself. We need to also be cautious of not canceling dissenting voices under the guise that they are 'cancel culture.'

 

Yep, new episode every Monday. There's a ton of back episodes plus an alvum tournament we ran for fun that people can check out:

https://linktr.ee/Infectiousgroovepodcast

Anyways, back on topic: yeah, I totally agree that the knee jerk reaction shouldn't be "every one who is offended, must be wrong". 

I also agree with all of the comments saying that we're just in the middle of this. I'm anxious to see where it goes and the effect (or ultimately non effect) it might have on the art I love such as music and comedy. 

[Ace Nova]

17 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Celebrities, politicians and corporations will just have to accept that the new reality is that a large number of people can now through the power of internet be mobilized to quickly go after you. I don't say this because I think it is okay, but because I don't see how this can be reversed. The outcome can be devastating. Usually such attacks are fair but with little time for contemplation and second-thoughts mistakes are bound to be made. 

The new today is that what you did before can come back to haunt you. We don't accept any mistakes. Time gone by does not provide indulgences. We never forget. It's harsh and it is cruel. But it also is indicative of fluctuating morality, of a time when there is less acceptance of racism, misogyny, and sexism than before. If you balanced on the precipice before, or do it now, you may have a hard time coming for you. The pendulum is still in motion.

Right.  Imagine a world where everyone, everything, anywhere must conform to extremely specific socially acceptable standards.  (Many times put into motion by an imprudent few members of society).

What will that do the the arts, free thought, philosophies, creativity, ideologies....even sciences?  

How is it different than a society under totalitarianism?  

 

[downzy]

@RussTCB (and everyone) - Check out the NYT's podcast The Daily. 

Its latest episode is part 1 on cancel culture.  It literally came out today.  Where it came from, how it developed, and what it stands for today.  

Really worth a listen to anyone interested in this topic.  It's about a half hour and really covers the topic from different angles.  

Here's a link:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/10/podcasts/the-daily/cancel-culture.html

(Also accessible via Apple Podcast App and other places you get podcasts).

[RussTCB]

9 minutes ago, downzy said:

@RussTCB (and everyone) - Check out the NYT's podcast The Daily. 

Its latest episode is part 1 on cancel culture.  It literally came out today.  Where it came from, how it developed, and what it stands for today.  

Really worth a listen to anyone interested in this topic.  It's about a half hour and really covers the topic from different angles.  

Here's a link:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/10/podcasts/the-daily/cancel-culture.html

(Also accessible via Apple Podcast App and other places you get podcasts).

I'm forced to assume they pushed that episode out in a hurry due to the fact that I created this thread 

[downzy]

5 hours ago, RussTCB said:

I used Appetite as an example just because this is a GN'R forum so it seemed like the easiest example. I'm certainly not sitting around waiting for Axl to write more lyrics like that. My point was that I don't believe any artists today COULD if they wanted to. I was assuming my reputation as a well listened music fan of all genres and depth of lyrics would get that point across, but I guess not? Lol

Also, it's not a matter of "the world moving on" from any particular influence or sound. Pop music for younger people has always existed and it's always been at the forefront. That's never going to change. Furthermore, there's plenty of new pop music that's still great at least IMO. 

Overall, I'm always more concerned with art that challenges the listener. I see/hear less and less of that which is very concerning to me. Cancel culture being the culprit is just a guess on my part of course. I could certainly be wrong, but it's what I'm seeing from my perspective. 

I think we agree where music has arrived, but I'm still not sure "cancel culture" (funny enough, every time I attempt to type "cancel" I almost always type "cancer"), is the primary cause or deserves much of the blame.  As the podcast I linked to a few minutes ago outlines, the novel concept of cancel culture is so novel that it makes it hard to believe that it has had the time to take hold of the music industry in any real way.  You know way more about music than I do so you likely see things that I'm missing.  Are there artists that you feel are holding back in the last year because of fear of the online mob?  

Do you subscribe to Bob Lefsetz's newsletter?  I've subscribed since 2007.  He's got some really great insights into the music industry and might be one of the few people who could give you a run for your money in terms of music knowledge.  He's been hammering the music industry for the past six or seven years for selling out.  Artists are tailoring their music to maximize potential revenue due to the evaporation of recording revenues.  Music has long been commercialized but Lefsetz argues this trend has been on steroids due to artists needing to find revenues wherever they can.  This usually results in musicians, save for those who already have an established career (Pearl Jam, Radiohead, Rage Against The Machine, etc.) to tailor their lyrics to the same crap that Bieber, Rhianna, or Taylor Swift is singing about.  It's all about the streams and has been for years.  The argument here is that economics is driving the sanitation of music as it must appeal to as broad a market as possible.  

I do think pop music has changed a lot in the last 20 years.  In the quest to make a buck it's become less personal and slick, polished, and processed.  We've come a long way from MJ singing about "the kid ain't my son."  Which is why I think artist like Billie Eilish has struck such a nerve since she represents a call back to a less glamorized and more meaningful form of pop.  I do think more artists like Eilish are out there, but it's tough to break through all the noise.

It's also interesting to see some artists who have made every effort to appeal to as broad a consumer base as possible begin to shed that veneer.  Taylor Swift comes to mind.  Until this year she made almost every attempt to separate her music from politics.  It felt very calculating to ensure she could keep selling tickets to both liberals and conservatives.  But this year she came out vehemently against Trump despite the potential revenue losses from Trump supporters. 

We also saw this here on this forum with respect to Guns and Axl's opposition to Trump.  How many on here swore they were done with Guns because they didn't agree with either Axl's positions on Trump or even the fact that Axl would express his opinion on political matters?  But we all know it all came to nothing.  Most stuck around.  GNR's business certainly didn't seem hurt by it.  I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that I question how much of an impact whatever online mob-mentality really has on art forms like music.  I have a hard time believing that established acts would hold back in this day an age on how they felt out of concern for loss revenue.  Perhaps there are some who think like Michael Jordan did in the 80s when he didn't want to endorse a black politician because "Republicans buy shoes too."  But you know way more about music than I do so perhaps I'm just missing what you're seeing.  

[downzy]

17 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

I'm forced to assume they pushed that episode out in a hurry due to the fact that I created this thread 

LOL...  You underestimate your power to drive conversation

Give it a listen.  I actually thought the term "cancel culture" was much older than it is but apparently its usage is much more novel than I realized.  The dynamic has been a round for awhile, but the term itself and how it is being used as a catch-all descriptor for a concept that can be viewed broadly but operate specifically is new.  

[downzy]

5 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

See, this is my point, some fuckin' pussy on the internet saying shit about you, big wow, fuck em, you been to plenty GnR shows I'm guessing right?  Anybody ever run up on you at one?  I'm guessing but I bet they haven't.  What would one say to you in that regard, 'i don't like the way you moderate your forum motherfucker'   Uh...OK?

To be honest the only time I've been approached at concerts is at meet-up events prior.  They're usually something I initiate.  I organized a meet-up prior to the 2016 Toronto show and bought drinks for forum members who showed up.  It was a good time and everyone acted like they would in real life, and not how they present themselves online.

But once I'm at the show I make efforts to make my presence less apparent.  I highly doubt anyone would say or start anything since most internet tough guys are the biggest pussies in real life, but considering the amount of booze that gets consumed at a typical GNR concert by assholes I'd rather not engage since that's not what I'm there for.  

And yeah, I do agree that the response to the internet saying shit is to tell them to fuck off.  The problem I have with cancel culture isn't that it exists, but how we respond to it.  Simply because a group of jerks deem it necessary for a person to lose their jobs because of a mistake doesn't mean their employer should do it.  Companies are made up of people too who can make informed decisions as to what's best for their company and their employees.  Deciding whether someone keeps their jobs because of what is said on twitter is fucking nuts.  That said, if I had an employee who was documented using overtly racists language or engaging in terrible behaviour and they made zero efforts to apologize and make amends I wouldn't want that person employed at my company.  

[soon]

Im currently enjoying watching two women roast battling in almost 100% r@pe jokes. Its on YouTube and isn't age restricted content.

Before that I listened to Bobby Brown and Catholic Girls by Frank Zappa on YouTube. They also weren't age restricted. And I note that the Zappa estate wrestled away the name Zappa from Dweezil, because that content still makes enough money from them to fight over who gets to play it live today.

Thats why I'm not too concerned about cancel cultures impact on pop culture. Its there in the name, popular. As in large numbers. We the people. But this is just a hot take, I dont really think about this aspect much.

Edited August 10, 2020 by soon

[soon]

1 hour ago, Ace Nova said:

 

(And I would add it masquerades itself as "many other things" as well.  None being what it truly is, once you get past the surface.  )

^^ This motherfucker is astute. 

[Ace Nova]

28 minutes ago, downzy said:

 

And yeah, I do agree that the response to the internet saying shit is to tell them to fuck off.  The problem I have with cancel culture isn't that it exists, but how we respond to it.  Simply because a group of jerks deem it necessary for a person to lose their jobs because of a mistake doesn't mean their employer should do it.  Companies are made up of people too who can make informed decisions as to what's best for their company and their employees.  Deciding whether someone keeps their jobs because of what is said on twitter is fucking nuts.  That said, if I had an employee who was documented using overtly racists language or engaging in terrible behaviour and they made zero efforts to apologize and make amends I wouldn't want that person employed at my company.  

Right.

One of the core issues, imo, is that many times, a certain  "canceling" gains momentum simply because the person (or people) who started the "canceling" have millions of followers.  Those followers may not be the most "prudent" bunch but will do it simply because they are fans or may feel like they "must do it in order to be included" in a certain circle they deem to be "cool".

Again, no one is saying (at least I'm not) that certain things shouldn't be "canceled" (if in fact, they should).   It's about the origins, the "mob mentality", etc that routinely develops - whether it's "right" or "wrong" and how that "mentality" can be (and has been) extremely imprudent in myriad of occasions, both recently and throughout history.   That same mentality can be used (abused) for nefarious purposes.  It sets a dangerous precedent, imo.   

A recent example of how "cancel culture" could be used for nefarious purposes would be the myriad of fake articles that circulated Facebook (among other social media platforms) prior to the 2016 elections.   Articles not based on reality but drummed up in order to affect the way some people felt about a certain candidate or political ideology.  The average person may have not "fact checked" the article, then clicked "share" and so forth.  That type of stuff is based on the same concept of "cancel culture". 

One could argue that the "cancel culture mentality" was used by the far right after Hillary Clinton's "deplorables" comment.  It spread like wildfire and whether or not it was what she meant, it lead to a portion of society "canceling" Clinton. 

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Ace Nova

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Ace Nova said:

Right.  Imagine a world where everyone, everything, anywhere must conform to extremely specific socially acceptable standards. 

That's science fiction. I don't see what that has got to do with the topic. 

[Ace Nova]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

That's science fiction. I don't see what that has got to do with the topic. 

Yes, of course it's science fiction. 

It's a most extreme example of how the "cancel culture" concept could potentially result in a "totalitarian" like society.

[YOUCOULDBEMINE.]

The cancel culture is going a bit far. I've heard of make up brands removing words like "whitening" from their products.

And while I agree that there are things that could/should be approached differently, there's no need to cancel or boycott someone's business or career over something so small.

Social media is the biggest issue here. It's way too easy to gather a following on Instagram or Twitter, a lot of them are just in it to troll.

[SoulMonster]

21 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

Yes, of course it's science fiction. 

It's a most extreme example of how the "cancel culture" concept could potentially result in a "totalitarian" like society.

A slippery slope that I don't fear at all. You describe a society with a narrower window of acceptable behavior. I don't see any signs of that. Yes, society is less accepting of racism, misogyny and sexism (and fringes will always take it too far), but at the same time these last decades society has becoming much more accepting of non-traditional sexual orientations and self-identification. I simply don't see that what is acceptable is becoming narrower. So I don't accept this whatabouism you present as a warning of this "cancel culture". 

The problem as I see it, is more that you get overreactions and mob dynamics. 

[Ace Nova]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

 

The problem as I see it, is more that you get overreactions and mob dynamics. 

Correct.  That is my point. 

I used the "totalitarian" example as the most extreme case of what "mob mentality" could result in (and has resulted in).  I am saying that's why the concept is wrong; not because it's what it will lead to....because it has lead to that in the past and overall, it can be detrimental and could be used for nefarious purposes.  

An extreme example is that prior to WWII, Mussolini had organized Italy and the "trains ran on time".  He "canceled" Italy's "prior" system and implemented his own.  In most Italians' opinions, his actions were for the "betterment of society".  The Italian populace then thought, "Since Mussolini improved Italy, then everything he does must be for the betterment of Italy".  (Mob mentality)

That same "mob mentality" that was once used for the "betterment of Italy" catapulted Italy directly into joining forces with Hitler.

 

[WhazUp]

I am late to this thread so I don't know if this has already been touched upon, but one aspect of Cancel Culture I find really troubling is how streaming services like Netflix are removing episodes of television shows not even because people have talked about having issues with them - but in preparation before anyone even mentioned them lol

 

For example, there was an episode of Community where one of the characters while playing D&D was dressed in makeup dressed as a dark elf and the actual joke was how he was doing unintentional blackface.  There really was nothing offensive there, but they pulled the episode because they were too scared of people trying to "cancel" the episode yet there was literally not a single person concerned with that episode at all.  It wasn't even a thing until Netflix's actions made it so

[soon]

3 minutes ago, WhazUp said:

I am late to this thread so I don't know if this has already been touched upon, but one aspect of Cancel Culture I find really troubling is how streaming services like Netflix are removing episodes of television shows not even because people have talked about having issues with them - but in preparation before anyone even mentioned them lol

 

For example, there was an episode of Community where one of the characters while playing D&D was dressed in makeup dressed as a dark elf and the actual joke was how he was doing unintentional blackface.  There really was nothing offensive there, but they pulled the episode because they were too scared of people trying to "cancel" the episode yet there was literally not a single person concerned with that episode at all.  It wasn't even a thing until Netflix's actions made it so

Netflix would cancel the Prime Minstrel of Canada  But the voters didn't.

[EvanG]

I watched a comedy show on Netflix last week and the comedian was making fun of muslims, black people, British people, most religions, women, etc. I doubt that they will remove it.

[soon]

I didnt realize I was such an early adopter of the terms cancel and callout culture which have since merged into the term cancel culture. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, my first exposure to cancelling was in 2015-16 when Trump went on Fallon. And call out culture iirc was in my vocabulary even earlier. And then in 2016 a LOT of nazis were cancelled (but the term was used less frequently to describe the act). Im only now beginning to understand how this issue has reemerged or found a new relevancy in the pandemic times.

Im usually not cool enough to be early to something. So that possibility actually hadnt occurred to me. Look at me peacocking baby! 

So with this new perspective on where the conversation sits with the wider public, I thought I should mention about Grimes cancellation.

Grimes is a singer-songwriter from Canada who is involved with Elon Musk, the two have a baby together. She is really up on online culture and 'future humans.'

As a very incisive artist she toys with her audience. Grimes was cancelled prior to the release of her most recent album. I dont even remember why tbh. But it really seemed like she designed it as an intentional exploration into that aspect of online culture. Like she wanted to experience cancellation to further her work. In a somewhat recent RS feature she spoke of her cancellation a bit. And it sat there along side other topics like domestication and her 'new name' "C." It all seemed to be of one theme.

I mean this to say that we've already got people getting cancelled and reborn in the name of art. Theres some depth to the discussion.

In online meme culture, for instance, it is said that 'once the people know about the meme, its dead.' And I think Grimes fuckery kinda speaks into that with regards to cancel culture. 

Cancelling has been disseminated already to the extent that it has entered the mainstream lexicon. Now it will be disseminated by popular discourse. But that new discourse, thankfully, isnt the starting point. So its my opinion that we can ease into this conversation with interest, but we can rest assured that this thing isnt like a meteor hurtling towards the earth. Rather, its something that people have been observing and interacting with for a minute already.

Edited August 11, 2020 by soon