Death of Lisa Montgomery in Indiana.

[DurhamGirl]

The first women since 1953 was killed by US state today even though a judge had pronounced her too meantally ill to undersand what was going on, this was done under the wishes of Trump.  The folk involved should hang their heads in shame but the wont, the County Sheriff of Indiana has just given his worldly and educated opinion, something along the  lines of 'she was really the devil come down blah blah'.  I find it is the most reigious in the US who have this need for blood lust and eye for an eye, just sad.  I have campaigned for the end of the death penalty in the US, mainly texas, and have had some difficult conversations with prison staff there who were just plain rude and I have to say missing a brain cell of two.

Thank goodness President elect Biden has stated that he will end this barbarous activity although he will have a fight on his hands with some states.

[Ratam]

3 hours ago, DurhamGirl said:

The first women since 1953 was killed by US state today even though a judge had pronounced her too meantally ill to undersand what was going on, this was done under the wishes of Trump.  The folk involved should hang their heads in shame but the wont, the County Sheriff of Indiana has just given his worldly and educated opinion, something along the  lines of 'she was really the devil come down blah blah'.  I find it is the most reigious in the US who have this need for blood lust and eye for an eye, just sad.  I have campaigned for the end of the death penalty in the US, mainly texas, and have had some difficult conversations with prison staff there who were just plain rude and I have to say missing a brain cell of two.

Thank goodness President elect Biden has stated that he will end this barbarous activity although he will have a fight on his hands with some states.

😢

[Dazey]

The death penalty has no place in a civilised society. I'm not going to cry myself to sleep over this one getting deleted however. 

[ssiscool]

11 minutes ago, Dazey said:

The death penalty has no place in a civilised society. 

Yes and No.  For mundane crimes, no, it doesn't. However for the most deplorable crimes, Such as murder of a youth, War Crimes, Terrorism or exploitation of minors/vunerable, Then yes The death Penalty should still be used. 

 

Quote

I'm not going to cry myself to sleep over this one getting deleted however.

This is a case I'm not overly familiar with, Though reading up what the case is about, it seems that a death sentance is deserving of the crime. However, Given her mental capacity at the time of the crime and at her execution however i think she should of been getting specialist help. 

[Gracii Guns]

This is a really sad case. It's similar to Linda Carty in many respects. I really hope it doesn't set a precedent for her end too. 

[AlterL]

fuck that. That woman carved open another human being and tried to steal her baby, she deserves what she got. People need to take care of their own mental health somehow, but such barbarous acts should be punished with more than just locking them up.

they don't deserve the money spend on them.

[PatrickS77]

Depends on the crime. And how proven it is that the person is actually guilty. In this case, she got what she deserved. Won't shed a tear for her.

[spunko12345]

Has there been any cases say in the last 20 years where after execution it's been shown that the person was either innocent or that new evidence since has shown that their guilt was questionable?

If the answer is yes to either of those the death penalty has to be scrapped and the state is no better than a murderer. Its as simple as that.

Edited January 15, 2021 by spunko12345

[Angelica]

45 minutes ago, spunko12345 said:

Has there been any cases say in the last 20 years where after execution it's been shown that the person was either innocent or that new evidence since has shown that their guilt was questionable?

If the answer is yes to either of those the death penalty has to be scrapped and the state is no better than a murderer. Its as simple as that.

If the answer is no to either of those, the state is still no better than a murderer. State sanctioned murder is medieval horseshit, regardless of the crime committed.

[DurhamGirl]

1 hour ago, spunko12345 said:

Has there been any cases say in the last 20 years where after execution it's been shown that the person was either innocent or that new evidence since has shown that their guilt was questionable?

If the answer is yes to either of those the death penalty has to be scrapped and the state is no better than a murderer. Its as simple as that.

Many cases also , through the hardwork of the Innocence Project, many who have spent years on death row are now free.

[username]

I've never felt mankind in general has the right nor the wisdom to decide over life or death. 

At the same time there are certainly cases to be made, like ssiscool did earlier. From mass murderers to rapists to war criminals. I doubt, if they'd caught him at the time, many would have felt Josef Mengele should be allowed to live after the horrible crimes he commited. And if some pervert would put a hand on my daughter, my reaction would most likely be to kill him with my bare hands. But still... from a remote and objective perspective I'd say man shouldn't be able to decide over life or death.

But that raises the question, what should we do? And that's quite hard too. It's easy to say we should put them in a 2x2 meter cell with some straw for a bed and a shitbucket to live out the rest of their lives on bread and water without any daylight. There's something very strange in saying "this person committed a horrible crime so we will now spend thousands worth of tax money so that they can live out their lives in good conditions in what is just about a hotel room". I could ahrdly defend that one towards a victim either. I do feel the risk these people pose to society should always outweigh the rights of the perpetrator. You simply can't explain, as a government or coutnry, that a rapist, pedophile or murderer you put a "rehabilitated" stamp on  falls back in their old ways. Certainly not to the victim and/or their families. As they so often do. So yeah, if you can't kill them, where should you put them and under what conditions? That's a hard one... 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by username
spelling

[Angelica]

13 minutes ago, username said:

I've never felt mankind in general has the right nor the wisdom to decide over life or death. 

At the same time there are certainly cases to be made, like ssiscool did earlier. From mass murderers to rapists to war criminals. I doubt, if they'd caught him at the time, many would have felt Josef Mengele should be allowed to live after the horrible crimes he commited. And if some pervert would put a hand on my daughter, my reaction would most likely be to kill him with my bare hands. But still... from a remote and objective perspective I'd say man shouldn't be able to decide over life or death.

But that raises the question, what should we do? And that's quite hard too. It's easy to say we should put them in a 2x2 meter cell with some straw for a bed and a shitbucket to live out the rest of their lives on bread and water without any daylight. There's something very strange in saying "this person committed a horrible crime so we will now spend thousands worth of tax money so that they can live out their lives in good conditions in what is just about a hotel room". I could ahrdly defend that one towards a victim either. I do feel the risk these people pose to society should always outweigh the rights of the perpetrator. You simply can't explain, as a government or coutnry, that a rapist, pedophile or murderer you put a "rehabilitated" stamp on  falls back in their old ways. Certainly not to the victim and/or their families. As they so often do. So yeah, if you can't kill them, where should you put them and under what conditions? That's a hard one... 

 

 

Not sure what you’re basing the idea that regular American prisons constitute ‘good conditions’? And prison is cheaper than executing them due to the (obviously necessary) appeals process.  

Edited January 15, 2021 by Angelica

[username]

Just now, Angelica said:

In prison? Which is cheaper than executing them due to the (obviously necessary) appeals process.  

I'm not going to argue with "in prison". If you don't execute them that's a given. The problem is under what quality of living (how much luxury, do these often deranged or mentally limited people receive certain treatments?), under which conditions (is rehabilitation an option? are there possibility of parole or even release) and how much government/tax money should this be allowed to cost. These are difficult things imo. And of course these things are wildly different per country. But I've heard examples of a goverment spending more anually on the living conditions of a prisoner than that of an elderly person. And that, too, is hard to explain. 

[Gracii Guns]

As with much of the US justice system, the death penalty is inherently racist. The people campaigning to end the death penalty are usually the families of those on death row. People who end up in this situation aren't privileged.

Until the US state guarantees that a black man can have the same chance at life as a white man, they should stop killing the ones who fall through the cracks.

[Ratam]

4 hours ago, Angelica said:

If the answer is no to either of those, the state is still no better than a murderer. State sanctioned murder is medieval horseshit, regardless of the crime committed.

This.

[DurhamGirl]

3 hours ago, Angelica said:

Not sure what you’re basing the idea that regular American prisons constitute ‘good conditions’? And prison is cheaper than executing them due to the (obviously necessary) appeals process.  

We seem to have similar thoughts as me on this subject which is great as I come across so many who would 'throw away the key'.  In the UK we abolished the death penalty in 1966, but polls have been done since that, unfortunately, show a change of mind.  For those in favour take into account that an innocent people are executed as history shows. 

[Sydney Fan]

Any crimes that result in life being innocently taken for no conscuencious reason shoukd invole their life been taken . People who do this in my view cannot be mentally rehabilitated. So whats the answer?. Life in prison for say 50,60,70 years?. They cannot be rehabilitated  and i certainly would not want my taxes housing and feeding them for their remaining time on earth. My answer is, they should die. Slowly.

I think society is more heinous than what it was 50 years ago hence why i think peoples attitude to the death penalty are changing.

 

[Gavin82]

It always happens the smaller court issues the stay then the prosecution go straight too the supreme Court who lift it its happened loads of times as they have 24hr too carry the order out  from her 1st execution time after the 24hr expires it can be more time costing with  new dates more court cases etc 

She would have been sat a few feet away from the room the whole time after 24HR she would have  been moved back too DR.

Also Biden is going too put a stop too FEDERAL executions thats why the prosecution really pushed for this cos they knew time was ticking down after her 24hr had expired Biden could have been in charge the nx time this case was herd meaning she would have had her sentence turned in too whole life 

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Gavin82

[username]

4 hours ago, Angelica said:

Not sure what you’re basing the idea that regular American prisons constitute ‘good conditions’? And prison is cheaper than executing them due to the (obviously necessary) appeals process.  

I'm trying to look at this in a general perspective, not just from an American perspective. The American prison system seems to be something where conditions are bad and where people who have been in there often come out worse than how they came in. Which also solves very little.  

[Gavin82]

Another interesting case and now a film Trial by fire about C Todd Willingham in TX he was put too sleep in 2004 but what a case too read 

[EvanG]

I'd rather see someone like that spending the rest of their life in jail and being miserable than getting the sweet relief of death.

[spunko12345]

1 hour ago, Sydney Fan said:

Any crimes that result in life being innocently taken for no conscuencious reason shoukd invole their life been taken . People who do this in my view cannot be mentally rehabilitated. So whats the answer?. Life in prison for say 50,60,70 years?. They cannot be rehabilitated  and i certainly would not want my taxes housing and feeding them for their remaining time on earth. My answer is, they should die. Slowly.

I think society is more heinous than what it was 50 years ago hence why i think peoples attitude to the death penalty are changing.

 

Paying for them to live out the rest of their life in prison is the cost that society has to bear to avoid innocent people being murdered by the state.

The alternative is to accept that innocent people will be killed by the state as collateral to satisfy people wanting an eye for an eye, its a numbers game and its inevitable mistakes will (and have) been made pretty often by what i see from other posters here. What gives anyone the right to decide that that its a fair trade off.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't be prepared to tell a family of someone wrongly executed "Sorry we fucked up there when we killed your son/daughter/brother but hey we offed 15 other proper fucking scumbags bang to rights so swings and roundabouts eh"

Edited January 15, 2021 by spunko12345

[ToonGuns]

21 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I'd rather see someone like that spending the rest of their life in jail and being miserable than getting the sweet relief of death.

Agree.

And this is cheaper.

And this avoids killing innocent people.

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Sydney Fan said:

Any crimes that result in life being innocently taken for no conscuencious reason shoukd invole their life been taken . People who do this in my view cannot be mentally rehabilitated. So whats the answer?. Life in prison for say 50,60,70 years?. They cannot be rehabilitated  and i certainly would not want my taxes housing and feeding them for their remaining time on earth. My answer is, they should die. Slowly.

I think society is more heinous than what it was 50 years ago hence why i think peoples attitude to the death penalty are changing.

 

The purpose of imprisonment is at least fourfold: rehabilitation, deterrence, prevention of new crimes, and revenge. 

You are correct that rehabilitation has been shown to not work efficiently (studies report only a 10% reduced chance of new crimes), but this is likely to vary from country to country as a consequence of the resources allocated to rehabilitation programs. Simply imprisoning criminals in itself will likely not result in rehabilitation, it must be couples to rehabilitation programs that work on each inmate to help that person change (education, therapy, etc). 

And yes, proper rehabilitation is expensive. But as others pointed out, so is capital punishment. Maybe it isn't a question about economics but ethics? 

Additionally, someone made the argument that capital punishment should be abolished because mistakes are made. Sure, but the same argument could be made against any other punishment. People get imprisoned wrongly. People get fined wrongly. And yes, you can't make up for a wrongful capital punishment...but can you make up for wrongful 30 years in prison? I am not making a case for capital punishment here, just pointing out a flawed argument. 

It probably lies on the assumption that nothing it worse than death. It is the ultimate punishment. But is it? To everybody? Always? 

Where I come from, we don't have capital punishment (fortunately), but we also don't have very long prison sentences (21 years is typically maximum). We also spend more resources on rehabilitation than most. This includes caring for inmates. This might fly in the face of people who focuses on the "revenge" motif for imprisonment; we think that is a bit primitive and bloodthirsty and would rather focus on rehabilitation. You don't fight violence with violence - that sends the wrong signal. Besides, imprisonment is always a punishment to those involved. Very few wants to lose years to confinement. At least here. 

[spunko12345]

4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

The purpose of imprisonment is at least fourfold: rehabilitation, deterrence, prevention of new crimes, and revenge. 

You are correct that rehabilitation has been shown to not work efficiently (studies report only a 10% reduced chance of new crimes), but this is likely to vary from country to country as a consequence of the resources allocated to rehabilitation programs. Simply imprisoning criminals in itself will likely not result in rehabilitation, it must be couples to rehabilitation programs that work on each inmate to help that person change (education, therapy, etc). 

And yes, proper rehabilitation is expensive. But as others pointed out, so is capital punishment. Maybe it isn't a question about economics but ethics? 

Additionally, someone made the argument that capital punishment should be abolished because mistakes are made. Sure, but the same argument could be made against any other punishment. People get imprisoned wrongly. People get fined wrongly. And yes, you can't make up for a wrongful capital punishment...but can you make up for wrongful 30 years in prison? I am not making a case for capital punishment here, just pointing out a flawed argument. 

It probably lies on the assumption that nothing it worse than death. It is the ultimate punishment. But is it? To everybody? Always? 

Where I come from, we don't have capital punishment (fortunately), but we also don't have very long prison sentences (21 years is typically maximum). We also spend more resources on rehabilitation than most. This includes caring for inmates. This might fly in the face of people who focuses on the "revenge" motif for imprisonment; we think that is a bit primitive and bloodthirsty and would rather focus on rehabilitation. You don't fight violence with violence - that sends the wrong signal. Besides, imprisonment is always a punishment to those involved. Very few wants to lose years to confinement. At least here. 

Your right of course that people can be wrongly imprisoned but the key difference is that it at least gives room to try to correct the mistake. Financial compensation etc even acknowledgment and apology is more that a dead person can expect to receive.