The US Politics/Elections Thread 2.0

[Padme]

16 hours ago, RussTCB said:

As many of you know, I pay little to no attention to politics. I have a question: why does Trump keep telling people he's going to be reinstated in August? 

August this!

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/04/politics/trump-org-finance-executive-subpoenaed-in-trump-investigation/index.html

On top of that he has been banned from Facebook for 2 years

See, this is exactly what he wants. People talking about him instead of taking about the issues with his organization. That's why he is talking out of his ass about August

I'm more concerned about the current state of the Republican Party.

[Padme]

Today is D Day anniversary. And on Wednesday Biden is going to Europe. He will have meetings with everyone addressing all kind of issues. He explains it himself

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/06/05/joe-biden-europe-trip-agenda/

[downzy]

 

[Padme]

9 hours ago, downzy said:

 

Sorry I can't help it. It remains me of this 

WE'RE F'N' BACK  

 

[downzy]

Unintentional parody:

 

[downzy]

Looks like Florida has some competition for this year’s worst state awards:

 

[Dazey]

2 hours ago, downzy said:

Unintentional parody:

 

Still would.  

[downzy]

6 hours ago, Dazey said:

Still would.  

I think porn was her backup if running for Congress didn’t work out...

[Dazey]

10 minutes ago, downzy said:

I think porn was her backup if running for Congress didn’t work out...

I'm not even joking. I'd even give Marjorie Taylor Greene one given the opportunity!  

[Padme]

@Dazey Biden told Boris to cut the crap about NI border. So NI remains in the single market. Maybe you should move there 

[downzy]

Anyone else shocked! that the DOJ under Trump was mining personal communication data of political opponents?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/10/us/politics/justice-department-leaks-trump-administration.html

 

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

It still seems like Trump is still a huge influence on the Republican party. What the hell?  Trump must have tons of shit on many of them since they still seem to be doing whatever the hell he told them to do.

I can't believe the state America is in right now. I don't think the world has been this bad since the middle ages.

Hate is still very much here no matter how many commercials you show telling how we must not hate and love each other. How long will this go on? we honestly have to be told to be tolerant of other people? I think this is just too damn sad. Common sense seems to be missing from many people these days.

On 6/10/2021 at 12:43 AM, downzy said:

Looks like Florida has some competition for this year’s worst state awards:

 

See no damn common sense at all. And the children will suffer and possibly die.

[downzy]

 

 

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

Throwback to the last Israel-Palestine conflict. I made the statement that support for Israel was going down and you're going to start to see cracks in the support for Israel among the political class. I had no idea the support has dropped as much as it has for young evangelicals, of which the evangelical population is the political muscle for the Israel lobby. Without them, all you have are the big money players, essentially a brain without a body.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/05/26/as-israel-increasingly-relies-on-us-evangelicals-for-support-younger-ones-are-walking-away-what-polls-show/

Quote

But a new survey commissioned by University for North Carolina at Pembroke researchers, carried out by Barna Group, has exposed what we have been finding for some time: younger evangelicals are much less supportive of Israel than older evangelicals, by a widening margin. The poll found a dramatic shift in attitudes between 2018 and 2021: support for Israel among young evangelicals dropped from 75% to 34%

 

[Jakey Styley]

18 hours ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Throwback to the last Israel-Palestine conflict. I made the statement that support for Israel was going down and you're going to start to see cracks in the support for Israel among the political class. I had no idea the support has dropped as much as it has for young evangelicals, of which the evangelical population is the political muscle for the Israel lobby. Without them, all you have are the big money players, essentially a brain without a body.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/05/26/as-israel-increasingly-relies-on-us-evangelicals-for-support-younger-ones-are-walking-away-what-polls-show/

 

This is good to see. What I fear though is that while support for Israel might be trending down, enthusiasm for actually urging the U.S. government to lessen support to Israel won’t change much. I just don’t think it’s close enough to home, it’s too far from being a bread and butter issue for voters to really put pressure on the government.

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

5 hours ago, Jakey Styley said:

This is good to see. What I fear though is that while support for Israel might be trending down, enthusiasm for actually urging the U.S. government to lessen support to Israel won’t change much. I just don’t think it’s close enough to home, it’s too far from being a bread and butter issue for voters to really put pressure on the government.

You're probably right. The actual policies will probably remain similar for the foreseeable future.  I think you'll start to see less of the overt vocal support from politicians in speeches and such (I think you're starting to see it already).

[downzy]

 

[Jakey Styley]

On 6/12/2021 at 1:43 PM, downzy said:

 

 

To be fair, many historians are of the opinion that the 1619 Project is garbage, a thesis in search of evidence, a reframing of history which at its worst can be outright false and at best plays loosely with facts to arrange them to tell a very motivated story. If schools are incorporating it into their history curriculum, it makes sense that Republican voters would be concerned and that their elected officials would take moves against it.

I agree that it's ironic that Republicans' response to these things like critical race theory is to ban it as it makes them guilty of the same crimes as the silencing liberals they complain about. But the problem is that things like CRT are so inherently stifling of free discussion that they can only have limited value in the classroom. I'm not suggesting that students should never analyze systems and society through a racial lens, but the way CRT often plays out is that if you disagree with any tenet of it, you are a racist, end of discussion, and being a racist is a cardinal sin which is worth being socially outcast and losing your job. I am all for the arena of ideas, but CRT and its structures of power don't play fair in the arena.

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

36 minutes ago, Jakey Styley said:

To be fair, many historians are of the opinion that the 1619 Project is garbage, a thesis in search of evidence, a reframing of history which at its worst can be outright false and at best plays loosely with facts to arrange them to tell a very motivated story. If schools are incorporating it into their history curriculum, it makes sense that Republican voters would be concerned and that their elected officials would take moves against it.

I agree that it's ironic that Republicans' response to these things like critical race theory is to ban it as it makes them guilty of the same crimes as the silencing liberals they complain about. But the problem is that things like CRT are so inherently stifling of free discussion that they can only have limited value in the classroom. I'm not suggesting that students should never analyze systems and society through a racial lens, but the way CRT often plays out is that if you disagree with any tenet of it, you are a racist, end of discussion, and being a racist is a cardinal sin which is worth being socially outcast and losing your job. I am all for the arena of ideas, but CRT and its structures of power don't play fair in the arena.

Yeah I pretty much agree that simply trying to ban an idea is pretty weak and is pretty much an admission you just don't have the proper arguments to smash the idea. If someone disagrees with CRT they need to meet it on the battlefield and make their arguments about why it's bunk. Trying to ban something is a cop-out.

I'm not speaking of obscenity or porn or something. Those aren't arguments and I'm far more sympathetic to someone wanting to ban or restrict those than a political idea, even one I disagree with like CRT.

[downzy]

11 hours ago, Jakey Styley said:

To be fair, many historians are of the opinion that the 1619 Project is garbage, a thesis in search of evidence, a reframing of history which at its worst can be outright false and at best plays loosely with facts to arrange them to tell a very motivated story.

Yes, some historians have that opinion.

But many do not.

Moreover, isn't that the issue with history in general.  The author is generally including their own perspective and considerations into what story gets told.  Some accounts are more valid than others, but viewing history from multiple viewpoints and angles can provide a better understanding of how a particular history has unfolded and how that understanding affects contemporary times.

The problem with your assessment is that simply pointing out that some historians take issue with the 1619 project doesn't necessary mean it has no merit or little value.  It is certainly problematic, but so too is the history that's been taught for generations.  Taken as another viewpoint or consideration of how American history has unfolded, whether specific or abstract, the 1619 project at least allows a broader view of how the country became to be, one that includes more voices than those who have traditionally defined what is, and what isn't, American history.

11 hours ago, Jakey Styley said:

If schools are incorporating it into their history curriculum, it makes sense that Republican voters would be concerned and that their elected officials would take moves against it.

Well, it depends on how schools are incorporating the 1619 project. 

If they're teaching it as absolute truth, that all other viewpoints are rendered irrelevant, then sure, that would be a problem.

But if students are being provided with another view point, one that includes a review of its strengths and weaknesses, then I don't see the issue.  History is largely viewed through frames.  If offered as a contrasting frame, one that offers some elements of truth that deserve consideration, then it would only improve students ability to more fully view how America came to be.

There are multiple lenses one can view American, or any, history.  This could or should be considered as just another lens or frame in how history can be interpreted.

11 hours ago, Jakey Styley said:

But the problem is that things like CRT are so inherently stifling of free discussion that they can only have limited value in the classroom

So you're issue isn't necessarily with CRT, but how it's being taught.  And that's a fair criticism if and when no other viewpoints are allowed or afforded.  But is that absolutely always the case?  Not in my experience.

I would argue that there is value in CRT, just as there's value looking at American history through a Marxist perspective, even if neither are complete and have their own flaws and criticisms.  In the end they're both just theories, and almost every social/political science theory has its strengths and weaknesses.  Taught on their own they give incomplete perspectives.  But the point isn't to point to one or the other and say this is true, but to give students and people the ability to weigh arguments and evidence and come to a conclusion that pulls from the strengths and weaknesses of all perspectives.  If anything, America desperate needs more of this approach to education.  The ability for many to see and consider nuance and objectively weigh merits of thought is shockingly lacking in American discourse, which is partly how you get someone like Donald Trump as President.  

11 hours ago, Jakey Styley said:

but the way CRT often plays out is that if you disagree with any tenet of it, you are a racist, end of discussion, and being a racist is a cardinal sin which is worth being socially outcast and losing your job

Sorry, but I find this assessment to be an exaggeration to the extreme.  Certainly there are some circles where this attitude is prevalent, but to suggest that any and all disagreement with CRT gets one cancelled and labelled a racist is a bit much.  

11 hours ago, Jakey Styley said:

I am all for the arena of ideas, but CRT and its structures of power don't play fair in the arena.

Maybe that's been your experience.  I became exposed to CRT over 15 years ago and find a lot of value in it.  Perhaps times have changed, but during my educational career there was never any attempts to stifle critiques or examine where CRT might have over-extended itself.  Certainly you could find examples of CRT education run amuck, but I would again stress this is an issue with how the theory is approached and taught, less with some of the ideas of the theory itself.  

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

I wish we could see Biden's meeting with Putin and see how Putin will lie with a smile on his face.

Biden better put on his big boy pants and put Putin on notice. Too much shit Russia is getting away with. Not to mention China.

If they ever hack our defense systems, we're fucked for sure. Bet they are working on that. First our gas grid and then our meat planets. what's next?

I can't believe I'd ever see America in a position of being fucked over many time.  Years ago we were a country to be  feared by our enemies, but since Trump kissing Putin's ass, no one thinks we are the power we were. Sad.

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

1 hour ago, dontdamnmeuyi2015 said:

I wish we could see Biden's meeting with Putin and see how Putin will lie with a smile on his face.

Biden better put on his big boy pants and put Putin on notice. Too much shit Russia is getting away with. Not to mention China.

If they ever hack our defense systems, we're fucked for sure. Bet they are working on that. First our gas grid and then our meat planets. what's next?

I can't believe I'd ever see America in a position of being fucked over many time.  Years ago we were a country to be  feared by our enemies, but since Trump kissing Putin's ass, no one thinks we are the power we were. Sad.

With all due respect, Israel and pro-Israel interest groups have much more influence on our political class, and China has in some ways already surpassed the US economically. The focus on Russia by Washington seems like an odd misallocation of resources to me in comparison to other lobby groups and countries.

[downzy]

43 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

The focus on Russia by Washington seems like an odd misallocation of resources to me in comparison to other lobby groups and countries.

I think the consideration with respect to the focus on Russia is its proximity to America's alliances and obligations with western democracies in Europe. 

As John McCain once said, Russia is little more than gas station with nuclear weapons.  Its economy is nearly 40 smaller than that of California's.

But it does pose an existential threat to eastern Europe and has proven itself adept at meddling in the elections of most Western democracies.  I think it would be detrimental for the US and other Western nations not to keep tabs on Russia and confront its efforts to undermine their domestic interests as a means to destabilize global alliances.  

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

10 hours ago, downzy said:

I think the consideration with respect to the focus on Russia is its proximity to America's alliances and obligations with western democracies in Europe. 

As John McCain once said, Russia is little more than gas station with nuclear weapons.  Its economy is nearly 40 smaller than that of California's.

But it does pose an existential threat to eastern Europe and has proven itself adept at meddling in the elections of most Western democracies.  I think it would be detrimental for the US and other Western nations not to keep tabs on Russia and confront its efforts to undermine their domestic interests as a means to destabilize global alliances.  

As you said, and I agree, Russia is not an existential threat, or even a major threat to the US. It's economy is weak and it has a shrinking population. I don't see them as the threat to Eastern Europe as they were in the Stalin era where they just literally wanted to swallow up Europe whole.  They want to do what the US does, have their own version of NATO with governments friendly and dependent on them. I can see why Washington see's that as a threat, because Washington wants to continually expand it's sphere of influence. But Russia can longer be the world's most powerful player, that ship sailed a long time ago.

Now China could be an existential threat to the US. Right now they are playing it awfully smart and quietly building themselves up and not getting into too many unnecessary foreign policy entanglements. What they'll do if they are the unquestioned most powerful country on Earth, that I do not know. Maybe they'll be a good steward of the globe.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Basic_GnR_Fan

[Padme]

On 6/15/2021 at 1:05 AM, downzy said:

 

Well... I don't rule out the possibility that COVID could be a bioweapon. I mean I don't have evidence but I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case. But God has nothing to do with. And that guy saying that COVID  was the first disease ever?!?! He needs to enrol in a history class or something. There's been deadly pandemics before. We had Spanish Flu or the Black Death