The US Politics/Elections Thread 2.0

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

Afghanistan is more proof of the obvious point that the US is very good at blowing things up, but doesn't know how to nation-build. Given the state of the US, that is not shocking in the slightest.

[Padme]

9 hours ago, Locke said:

but the actual exit should have been handled so much better than it has been.

How? What would you have done? Bush started the whole thing after 9/11. Obama cought Bin Laden but not much more was achived. Trump wanted to leave because he didn't want to spend more money there. In his view Afghanistan was a lost cause. But people around him wouldn't let him do anything. Now Biden does it. I guess he didn't know how weak and incompetent the Afghan army and government were.  I would like to know what happened and how it happened.  It sucks it ended this way. But the U.S. right now has other priorities at home

 

[Dazey]

Gotta say that Uncle Joe and co aren't covering themselves in glory with this. I can't see how many of these scenes could have been avoided whist still withdrawing all troops but communication has been pretty shocking. We really need a statement pretty sharpish. Also a little odd that Kamala Harris seems to have gone missing along with Jen Psaki. Not a good look.

[Padme]

41 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Gotta say that Uncle Joe and co aren't covering themselves in glory with this. I can't see how many of these scenes could have been avoided whist still withdrawing all troops but communication has been pretty shocking. We really need a statement pretty sharpish. Also a little odd that Kamala Harris seems to have gone missing along with Jen Psaki. Not a good look.

 According to CNN, It is expected that Biden is going to address the nation. So neither Harris nor Psaki are going to say much

The middle east is a lost cause. And it has been for decades. Only the British could somewhat handle them ages ago during the Empire.

[Dazey]

5 minutes ago, Padme said:

 According to CNN, It is expected that Biden is going to address the nation. So neither Harris nor Psaki are going to say much

The middle east is a lost cause. And it has been for decades. Only the British could somewhat handle them ages ago during the Empire.

I agree, I just think that somebody should be front and centre throughout all this. If it's going to be a couple of days until we get a White House statement then at least the press secretary should be at post. 

[Padme]

8 minutes ago, Dazey said:

I agree, I just think that somebody should be front and centre throughout all this. If it's going to be a couple of days until we get a White House statement then at least the press secretary should be at post. 

This issue can't wait a couple of days. Look, if the U.S. would've left 5 years ago or 20 years after Biden this outcome would've been the same.

[SoulMonster]

Surreal scenes from the airport in Kabul, a US Air Force plan rolling over the airstrip with dozens of Afghani clinging on , trying to escape the country. Just made my jaw drop.

The withdrawal of international forces forces from Afghanistan is just the period to 20 years of waste and futility. The intention of invading the country may have been okay, the execution was terrible and the outcome are so many people dead and nothing to show for it. Taliban will reverse any improvements made. The people will suffer.

Edited August 16, 2021 by SoulMonster

[Padme]

24 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Surreal scenes from the airport in Kabul, a US Air Force plan rolling over the airstrip with dozens of Afghani clinging on , trying to escape the country. Just made my jaw drop.

The withdrawal of international forces forces from Afghanistan is just the period to 20 years of waste and futility. The intention of invading the country may have been okay, the execution was terrible and the outcome are so many people dead and nothing to show for it. Taliban will reverse any improvements made. The people will suffer.

Care to eleborate about "improvements" I never saw them. And this situation is clear evidence of that. The Taliban did what they did because they have plenty of support from inside the country and outsiders as well. Otherwise this situation would've never happened. And if people suffer, their problem. Enough already with western countries spending tons of money in some worthless cause. Western countries need to deal with many issues already, from the economy to the pandemic and everything in between.

[Dazey]

2 minutes ago, Padme said:

Care to eleborate about "improvements" I never saw them. 

Women able to be educated is a pretty sizable improvement.

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, Padme said:

Care to eleborate about "improvements" I never saw them. 

You were there? Mostly improving conditions for women by lifting restrictions but also investment in infrastructure.

[Dazey]

Basically what's happened is that the US expected the Afghan army to keep the peace across country while they beat an orderly withdrawal. Thought they'd be well out of it before the Taliban started kicking off. The fact that the Afghan army didn't even attempt to defend themselves and effectively surrendered without a fight was a bit of a shock but not entirely unexpected. Taliban steamrolled the country in less than a week and with only 2,000 troops remaining in country the US couldn't have done anything even if it wanted too.

The optics look particularly horrendous because now the White House is stuck with it's thumb up its arse wondering what the fuck just happened. For the record I don't think that the decision to get out was the wrong one necessarily nor do I think it would have happened any other way given the complete and utter collapse of government forces but fuck me if this doesn't look to the casual observer like the US has had it's pants pulled down in epic fashion!

Edited August 16, 2021 by Dazey

[Padme]

12 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Women able to be educated is a pretty sizable improvement.

 

11 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

You were there? Mostly improving conditions for women by lifting restrictions but also investment in infrastructure.

 Some women might have been able to school. But they still cover their bodies from head to toe. I can't imagine a woman in that place being the CEO of anything. What infrastructure? I'm sure there is bridge somewhere. And some airport. Afghanistan is far from being Abu Dabi when it comes infrastructure

[Padme]

40 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Basically what's happened is that the US expected the Afghan army to keep the peace across country while they beat an orderly withdrawal. Thought they'd be well out of it before the Taliban started kicking off. The fact that the Afghan army didn't even attempt to defend themselves and effectively surrendered without a fight was a bit of a shock but not entirely unexpected. Taliban steamrolled the country in less than a week and with only 2,000 troops remaining in country the US couldn't have done anything even if it wanted too.

The optics look particularly horrendous because now the White House is stuck with it's thumb up its arse wondering what the fuck just happened. For the record I don't think that the decision to get out was the wrong one necessarily nor do I think it would have happened any other way given the complete and utter collapse of government forces but fuck me if this doesn't look to the casual observer like the US has had it's pants pulled down in epic fashion!

Sure it is an embarrasment. How come nobody knew how incompetent the Afghan Army was?

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/08/15/kabul-and-taliban-what-know-us-withdrawal-afghanistan/8142051002/

Long and informative article. The U.S. expected some degree of mess. But they never saw this one coming. At the same time the U.S. Army couldn't stay there forever. Now the U.S. has to swallow this crap

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Padme said:

 Some women might have been able to school. But they still cover their bodies from head to toe. I can't imagine a woman in that place being the CEO of anything. What infrastructure? I'm sure there is bridge somewhere. And some airport. Afghanistan is far from being Abu Dabi when it comes infrastructure

Yeah, ok.

[Padme]

Even the Iranians are running away 

Iran reduces diplomatic staff in Afghanistan and shuts 3 consulates

From CNN’s Adam Pourahmadi

Iran has shut three of its consulates in Afghanistan and reduced the number of personnel at its embassy in Kabul amid the deteriorating security situation in the country, Iran's Foreign Ministry spokesman Saeed Khatibzadeh said according to a statement.

Iran closed its missions in Mazar-i-Sharif, Herat and Kandahar, the statement said.

“At the moment, only the security guards and a few local colleagues are present at these three missions,” Khatibzadeh said.

“Iran has also drawn down staff members at its embassy in Kabul, and a number of our colleagues have returned, leaving only enough personnel to handle the embassy’s essential activities,” he added.

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Surreal scenes from the airport in Kabul, a US Air Force plan rolling over the airstrip with dozens of Afghani clinging on , trying to escape the country. Just made my jaw drop.

The withdrawal of international forces forces from Afghanistan is just the period to 20 years of waste and futility. The intention of invading the country may have been okay, the execution was terrible and the outcome are so many people dead and nothing to show for it. Taliban will reverse any improvements made. The people will suffer.

I disagree, the intention wasn't even good. When has the US proven it can nation-build? All people can point to is Germany and Japan after WWII, but those were actual prosperous countries beforehand, all they needed was money and resources to rebuild what they had.

[ZoSoRose]

Sad disaster

[jamillos]

When I look at the shots from the Kabul airport, it's basically like watching the Israeli airport scene in World War Z. Almost identical. 

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

9 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Uh, yeeeah. Obviously have to concur with you on this one "the USA had good intentions in the Middle East." Wow. No, they didn't. Absolutely baffling.

They shouldn't have invaded in the first place. At most they should've gone over there just to assassinate Bin Laden, you know that CIA asset.

The fact that in 2021 the Military Industrial Complex etc isn't understood is startling. "USA was there for women's rights and infrastructure." No lol.

Yeah, the whole 'the US is there for women's rights" is such an obvious cope we don't even have to analyze it too deeply. If that were the case, the US would be invading and occupying literally every poor country in the world, not just the ones they have a geo-strategic interest in!

[downzy]

10 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Yeah, the whole 'the US is there for women's rights" is such an obvious cope we don't even have to analyze it too deeply. If that were the case, the US would be invading and occupying literally every poor country in the world, not just the ones they have a geo-strategic interest in!

Forget about women’s rights in other countries…. There’s many Americans who couldn’t give a shit about women’s rights in America. 

[SoulMonster]

Wow, how you guys are spinning. I was talking about international forces and that it may have been with good intentions. 

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

They were there as an extension of USA forces for the purposes of currying favour/trade. You don't think USA was there for things like women's rights, but UK, Germany, NZ or whatever could've been? So what USA is like the big fat kid on the playground pummeling the weaklings and we're standing behind them going "Pssst women's rights!" 

I also never said anything about anyone being there for "womens' rights". But yeah, there was a humanitarian aspect to the 20 year presence in Afghanistan, although the extent to that varied from participant to participant and it was definitely not an important aspect to USA's decision to invade after 9/11. 

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

Well, the President of Afghanatan is gone and the Taliban have Kabul. What a mess!

The Afghan army just laid down their guns and surrendered.  Guess their on their own.

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

40 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Wow, how you guys are spinning. I was talking about international forces and that it may have been with good intentions. 

Maybe those NGO's that tagged along after the US invasion had better intentions than the war architect's. I don't find that objectionable. But we have to admit it was all a house built on sand, those missions were only possible on the back of US military force (very similar to the Catholic church tagging along after colonial empires established their beachheads). Once the US pulled out, Afghanistan just reverted back to what it wanted to be....an illiberal, heavily Islamic influenced state.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Basic_GnR_Fan

[SoulMonster]

12 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

That seems a bit pedantic because 'humanitarian aspects' alludes to the women's rights thing. But okay you're saying not that. So humanitarian aspects to invading Afghanistan for 20years such as...?

Something is fucking up the forum for me and I just lost a reply. But mostly what @Basic_GnR_Fan said below

It is a conflation of what I wrote to make it seem I suggested the invasion of Afghanistan was about empowering women, and it is a simplification of the complexity of the war and presence in Afghanistan by so many different forces, including ISAF, to disregard the possibility that some forces MAY have been there also for humanitarian purposes, as I wrote.