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The US Politics/Elections Thread 2.0


downzy

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13 hours ago, Padme said:

How? What would you have done? Bush started the whole thing after 9/11. Obama cought Bin Laden but not much more was achived. Trump wanted to leave because he didn't want to spend more money there. In his view Afghanistan was a lost cause. But people around him wouldn't let him do anything. Now Biden does it. I guess he didn't know how weak and incompetent the Afghan army and government were.  I would like to know what happened and how it happened.  It sucks it ended this way. But the U.S. right now has other priorities at home

 

Again, my issue is with not taking care of those who helped us while we were there. It's not that I felt we should have stayed forever. But the locals who put their lives at risk to help because they believed that the U.S. would protect them should have been protected. If it turns out that they have been, great. But the media coverage continues to make it seem like that's an issue and that's the main problem I have with who it's been handled thus far. 

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1 hour ago, Padme said:

They still wear burkas when they go to school. Heck! Even a lot of middle eastern women living in Europe still wear burka. Anyway, the thing is this rights are just baby steps.  It is stil too soon to call it achievement even if the Taliban were gone. It's gonna take  a lot of time and struggle before it becomes something normal and logic

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/08/the-talibans-return-is-awful-for-women-in-afghanistan/619765/

43 minutes ago, Locke said:

Again, my issue is with not taking care of those who helped us while we were there. It's not that I felt we should have stayed forever. But the locals who put their lives at risk to help because they believed that the U.S. would protect them should have been protected. If it turns out that they have been, great. But the media coverage continues to make it seem like that's an issue and that's the main problem I have with who it's been handled thus far. 

It is definitely the case for some local interpreters who worked with Norwegian forces there. Some of them have been left behind and not face punishment from Taliban. Disgraceful. 

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2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

 It is a country run by Islamic Law, with or without the Taliban. Women are not in the right place when it comes to their rights. The rest of the Middle East it is pretty much the same. Some countries are a bit more moderates or more open to western ideas. But it is hard for women.

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53 minutes ago, Axl_morris said:

I served 14 months in Afghanistan and I can tell you I'm not surprised the Afghan Army gave up. Of course everyone knew this was going to happen, just not so soon. It's in their culture to be more tribal, and they behave in a totally different way than we do.

I don't think the Taliban will be the savages they are made out to be going forward. Especially in Kabul. I had an image of them wanting to burn down the embassys and attack the planes leaving the airport, but this isn't the case. They want to govern and be taken seriously by the international community.

What happens out of Kabul under local commanders, we'll never know. As for woman's rights, I'm sorry but I don't think they existed much in the last 20 years out of Kabul either. 

Funny how we accept Sharia law with countries like Saudi Arabia and other oil rich countries and don't pressure them about it. Infact we sell them weapons.

What happens  now? Does Al Quieda come back? Isis? I think it's now the Talibans turn to deal with counter-insurgancy, but they'll probably do a better job of it than ISAF.

My sincerest thanks for your service and your insight. 

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7 hours ago, Axl_morris said:

I served 14 months in Afghanistan and I can tell you I'm not surprised the Afghan Army gave up. Of course everyone knew this was going to happen, just not so soon. It's in their culture to be more tribal, and they behave in a totally different way than we do.

I don't think the Taliban will be the savages they are made out to be going forward. Especially in Kabul. I had an image of them wanting to burn down the embassys and attack the planes leaving the airport, but this isn't the case. They want to govern and be taken seriously by the international community.

What happens out of Kabul under local commanders, we'll never know. As for woman's rights, I'm sorry but I don't think they existed much in the last 20 years out of Kabul either. 

Funny how we accept Sharia law with countries like Saudi Arabia and other oil rich countries and don't pressure them about it. Infact we sell them weapons.

What happens  now? Does Al Quieda come back? Isis? I think it's now the Talibans turn to deal with counter-insurgancy, but they'll probably do a better job of it than ISAF.

Thank you so much for your service. I would really appreciate if you could tell me more details. I mean, was it 14 months of hell for you and others in your platoon? Do you believe it was worthy? If it brings painfull memories, ignore my questions.

You're right about oil countries. These wars will never end as long as western countries countinue to sell weapons to places like Saudi Arabia.

 

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I am reading an article in Norwegian media about Norway's participation in Afghanistan. The politicians interviewed, who represent the political parties in control during this period, are apologists as expected. But the article also presents data from the UN which I have no reason to not believe are correct: life expectancy increased from 56 to 64 years, child mortality halved, access to fresh water increased from 16 to 89%, 17% less child marriages, and twice as many girls in school than before the war. I don't expect the country would have experienced the same development if Taliban had been in control over these last decades. Again, not at all meant to justify the invasion or our presence in that country, nor to suggest the main reason for the invasion wasn't militaristic, just to point out how sad it is that Taliban is now taking control of the country again and I fear many of these developments will be reversed. What an absolute disaster. 

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I completely agree with President Biden to be honest and I'm not even from the U.S. Pulling the troops out of Afghanistan was the right choice.

POTUS just sent out a couple of tweets that convinced me of that. Why should U.S. troops fight a war that not even Afghan forces are willing to fight? America isn't the "world police".

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I'm going to be watching what China does. My guess is they play this way more intelligently than the US did. The US decided to occupy the country for 20 years and try to remake the society in it's own image. I suspect the Chinese will just pay off the Taliban to gain access to resources, markets, etc. 

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On 8/16/2021 at 4:31 PM, Axl_morris said:

I served 14 months in Afghanistan and I can tell you I'm not surprised the Afghan Army gave up. Of course everyone knew this was going to happen, just not so soon. It's in their culture to be more tribal, and they behave in a totally different way than we do.

I don't think the Taliban will be the savages they are made out to be going forward. Especially in Kabul. I had an image of them wanting to burn down the embassys and attack the planes leaving the airport, but this isn't the case. They want to govern and be taken seriously by the international community.

What happens out of Kabul under local commanders, we'll never know. As for woman's rights, I'm sorry but I don't think they existed much in the last 20 years out of Kabul either. 

Funny how we accept Sharia law with countries like Saudi Arabia and other oil rich countries and don't pressure them about it. Infact we sell them weapons.

What happens  now? Does Al Quieda come back? Isis? I think it's now the Talibans turn to deal with counter-insurgancy, but they'll probably do a better job of it than ISAF.

First I want to say "thank you for your service". My dad served in the Navy during the Vietnam war years.

I agree with you in everything you've said. 

What I want to know is did you see any Taliban when you served there? it seems as soon as the US pulled out these guys came out of the woodwork. Where were they for the past 20 years?  Hiding in caves? I assumed the forces were fighting Alcaeda and ISIS. Now here come the Taliban within days and taking over a whole country with no resistance. So what the US and it's allies did for 20 years is keep them in hiding and try to help the Afghans make a better way of life for themselves.  Someone on the news said, our armed forces were there to try to help them help themselves which obviously hasn't happened at all. I mean the Taliban took the whole country within two weeks and we were thre for 20 years.

The Taliban say they want to do right by the country and the people, but we all know once the cameras are off they will go back to doing what they always done. They have no respect for human life at all especially when it comes to women and children. The women will either be killed, now that they are protesting for their rights or made slaves. Kids will be recruited to join them or be killed. It's what they have done for thousands of years. They won't commit to anything the west tells them to do. Like you said they are tribal and always will be.

I feel sorry for all those people, but freedom isn't free as you as a soldier know this well.  Every men and women who served and tried to help must feel let down now. Calls to the veteran's places needing help are up. Not surprised. Probably thinking did I do enough, did the government know this would happen? Why would we go into any more countries and fight for the freedom they will never have.

After this we all need to know that America has to take care of themselves now. We have many problems here that need attention. We must always care for our veterans and their families and respect them even if you don't agree with any war they go into.

We as a world need to realize these Muslims have lived like this for thousands of years and won't change anytime soon.

Why we tolerant Saudi Arabia and not Iran and let countries like Syria and Iraq go down the drain I don't know? Maybe it's because they control all the oil but at what cost? Most of the 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia yet the US or the free world never addressed this.

I think from now on the US has to mind their own business and let those countries deal with their own shit.

Shit happens against human life all over the world and there's nothing we can do about it. It sucks but that's the way things are.

China, North Korea and Russia all treat their citizens like shit and will kill them in the streets if they disagree with their rules.

Why are we so obssessed with saving the Muslim countries? I'm just disappointed in how this was handled and how for the past 20 years our soldiers fought for freedom and tried to help these people, when all their soldiers did was lay down their weapons and give up.

Even France had their resistance to fight the Nazis. I think they are tired of all the war and fighting and are hoping to just get by and eal with whatever shit comes their way.

I'm worried now that who exactly will be coming to America? some of the ones who are our friends, might just be angry enough to attack us from within once they get to America. This war is long from over even if we've left Afghastan. I think we've left behind a bigger problem.

not to mention all the weapons we've left behind that is now in the hands of the Taliban. it's exaclty what they did after Russia left all those years ago.

The Taliban know every inch of those countries and that gives them the upper hand. Generations after generations serve in the Taliban, so they never get tired of war and will go on until they die.

Again thanks for your service. I always respect our men and women who serve and believe in making a better world. it's just that the odds seem stacked against us.

 

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I'd like to add that the Biden speech about the Afghanistan was one of the most honest and level-headed speeches on foreign policy given to the American people I've ever seen. Truth hurts people, would you rather have Biden leveling with you, or what the past 3 Presidents have done, and lie to you about how well the war was going and how strong the Afghan government was.

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1 hour ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

I'd like to add that the Biden speech about the Afghanistan was one of the most honest and level-headed speeches on foreign policy given to the American people I've ever seen. Truth hurts people, would you rather have Biden leveling with you, or what the past 3 Presidents have done, and lie to you about how well the war was going and how strong the Afghan government was.

I don't have a problem at all. The U.S. shouldn't spend billions in Afghanistan or elsewhere when there are biggest priorities at home. The problem is that in the U.S.  the media left and right are pissed off. And what they say and write has influence in people's mood and minds.

  Now, If the Taliban turned things up side down in a few days. It is because most people in Afghanistan don't have a problem with Taliban being in charge. Nobody moved a finger to stop them. It seems the U.S. and NATO were cluless about this indiference or whatever it is. They should've known better

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4 hours ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

I'd like to add that the Biden speech about the Afghanistan was one of the most honest and level-headed speeches on foreign policy given to the American people I've ever seen. Truth hurts people, would you rather have Biden leveling with you, or what the past 3 Presidents have done, and lie to you about how well the war was going and how strong the Afghan government was.

I will say that I appreciated that about the speech. But if he wanted to be really honest, he would have taken more responsibility for the horrible execution of the withdrawal. He said something like "sure, it's been messy" - no, it's been chaotic and humiliating, with many of our allies in the country getting fucked over unnecessarily.

When was the last time a politician just said "sorry, I/we fucked up." Never happens. I think voters would appreciate it, but probably wrong of me to have hope in the general population

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2 hours ago, Jakey Styley said:

I will say that I appreciated that about the speech. But if he wanted to be really honest, he would have taken more responsibility for the horrible execution of the withdrawal. He said something like "sure, it's been messy" - no, it's been chaotic and humiliating, with many of our allies in the country getting fucked over unnecessarily.

When was the last time a politician just said "sorry, I/we fucked up." Never happens. I think voters would appreciate it, but probably wrong of me to have hope in the general population

Here's my thing, Trump struck a deal with the Taliban 18 months ago. What was the Pentagon doing this entire time? Did they not think this was actually going to happen and they could just ignore it?

5 hours ago, Padme said:

I don't have a problem at all. The U.S. shouldn't spend billions in Afghanistan or elsewhere when there are biggest priorities at home. The problem is that in the U.S.  the media left and right are pissed off. And what they say and write has influence in people's mood and minds.

  Now, If the Taliban turned things up side down in a few days. It is because most people in Afghanistan don't have a problem with Taliban being in charge. Nobody moved a finger to stop them. It seems the U.S. and NATO were cluless about this indiference or whatever it is. They should've known better

I don't buy the US was clueless about how poorly the war was going or how weak the Afghan government and armed forces were. The Afghanistan papers showed their internal communications showed they knew how bad it was going and how bad the Afghan forces were, they just decided to lie to the American people about it to keep the war going.

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On 8/17/2021 at 8:09 AM, SoulMonster said:

 

There’s a bit of context missing from the comparison. It is my understanding that using helicopters to transfer personnel and diplomats in Kabul was common practice (for the last few years at least).  I don’t believe that was the case with Saigon. 

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13 hours ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Here's my thing, Trump struck a deal with the Taliban 18 months ago. What was the Pentagon doing this entire time? Did they not think this was actually going to happen and they could just ignore it?

 

I think I read someone in Defense say that they honestly thought Biden would reverse? It's hard to imagine, but it seems like they just did nothing in this time. Feels like it's worth an investigation. 

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Trump's last Secretary of Defence (he had many) came out today and said that they never really had any intentions of leaving Afghanistan.  The exit of forces agreement with the Taliban was only meant to be a ploy, and that American troops would have remained in the country even if the Taliban retook power. 

Ultimately I think what we've seen in the last two weeks comes down to an intelligence failure.  Biden was informed that the Afghani military could hold the Taliban for longer than they actually were able to (which was none at all).  Hence they operated with the expectation that they would have more time.  I don't think anyone would assume that the Afghani military was going to be able to keep the Taliban in check for any serious amount of time.  But there's a lot of monday-morning quarterbacking going on with the revelation that Afghan forces couldn't even keep Kabul for a week.  Other than the intelligence missteps, I don't have an issue with Biden operating on the belief that there was at least another month or two to get their affairs in order.  

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6 hours ago, downzy said:

Trump's last Secretary of Defence (he had many) came out today and said that they never really had any intentions of leaving Afghanistan.  The exit of forces agreement with the Taliban was only meant to be a ploy, and that American troops would have remained in the country even if the Taliban retook power. 

 

See this is where I wonder what is really going on. Trump's "ploy" included reducing the number of military to 2,500 leaving the opportunity for the Taliban to strengthen  and organizing, including the 5,000 fighters that were released?   

And I read a article about an Afghan soldier on the Daily Beast that seemed odd. "On Saturday night, he says he and his contingent were told by their superiors to surrender. “We did, we had a plan to fight for a while but no one asked us for fight. This is the most ridiculous moment of my life.”

The soldiers thought they were going to fight.  This and all the praise trump gave the Taliban makes me wonder. 

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