The US Politics/Elections Thread 2.0

[downzy]

On 9/13/2023 at 8:11 AM, Coma16 said:

Is Biden facing jail time?

For what?

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

Our government is so far apart and we the people of America are suffering for it.

When are they going to do something that benefits us? My grocery bill every week is about $200. I'm tired of spending most of my money on groceries and then the rest is rent and bills. I have nothing left.

My parents are on social security and my mom's money goes for groceries and my dad's goes to bills. Their mortgage is paid, but they still have tons of other bills. It just doesn't seem right.

And all the candidates that are running for President just argue on stage and don't say what they will do for Americans? And I can't beleive Trump is still ahead of the other morons. Biden is too damn old. I don't get why there's no one with common sense and caring that can run for President that is younger than 60? WTF?

[Tom2112]

On 10/4/2023 at 7:55 PM, dontdamnmeuyi2015 said:

Our government is so far apart and we the people of America are suffering for it.

When are they going to do something that benefits us? My grocery bill every week is about $200. I'm tired of spending most of my money on groceries and then the rest is rent and bills. I have nothing left.

My parents are on social security and my mom's money goes for groceries and my dad's goes to bills. Their mortgage is paid, but they still have tons of other bills. It just doesn't seem right.

And all the candidates that are running for President just argue on stage and don't say what they will do for Americans? And I can't beleive Trump is still ahead of the other morons. Biden is too damn old. I don't get why there's no one with common sense and caring that can run for President that is younger than 60? WTF?

It's because the mouth pieces running the country work for other corporations that like the current system. So if there ever was someone running for president that intended on radical change that would benefit you and your family the corporations would band together and pressure whichever party they were running for, or if they were independent they would stifle them at every chance by limiting their screen time during debates and news coverage, also running BS stories that allude towards communism and all those usual 'anti American dream' ideologies.

It's not ideal in Ireland, but the US looks like one of the hardest places to live in a "developed" world. Obviously warzones etc trump things, but America is one of the richest most powerful country yet the people struggle more than the majority of other nations.

Less money into military, more into bettering everyday Americans lives.

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

If the Presidential election will again be Biden and Trump it's gonna suck, because if Biden wins again, hopefully, Trump will have his minions burn down the government this time.

We need someone younger with the knowledge of what it means to be President and do things for the people not themselves.

Unfortunately, since Congress is made up of little boys who want to punch each other out, we are doomed.

our only hope is Trumps in jail or dead.

Otherwise, next year's election will be one big mess yet again.

What has happened to America?

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

1 hour ago, Tom2112 said:

It's because the mouth pieces running the country work for other corporations that like the current system. So if there ever was someone running for president that intended on radical change that would benefit you and your family the corporations would band together and pressure whichever party they were running for, or if they were independent they would stifle them at every chance by limiting their screen time during debates and news coverage, also running BS stories that allude towards communism and all those usual 'anti American dream' ideologies.

It's not ideal in Ireland, but the US looks like one of the hardest places to live in a "developed" world. Obviously warzones etc trump things, but America is one of the richest most powerful country yet the people struggle more than the majority of other nations.

Less money into military, more into bettering everyday Americans lives.

Unfortunately things have gotten out of hand since Trump and possibly before him. 

Both parites don't want the same thing and they constantly fight against each other instead of working together. This is going to tear America apart and with two wars to deal with and not to mention, China, Iran and North Korea, this is a time when we could be in for another terrorists attack again since our thoughts are everywhere else right now.

I'm worried because America is far apart as is the world and how can anything get better?

This is the worst of times I've ever seen and my parents agree.

If we don't get rid of Trump, he will start more fires because there seem to be so many morons who listen to his lies.

[Tom2112]

5 hours ago, dontdamnmeuyi2015 said:

Unfortunately things have gotten out of hand since Trump and possibly before him. 

Both parites don't want the same thing and they constantly fight against each other instead of working together. This is going to tear America apart and with two wars to deal with and not to mention, China, Iran and North Korea, this is a time when we could be in for another terrorists attack again since our thoughts are everywhere else right now.

I'm worried because America is far apart as is the world and how can anything get better?

This is the worst of times I've ever seen and my parents agree.

If we don't get rid of Trump, he will start more fires because there seem to be so many morons who listen to his lies.

I agree that a Trump led America in 2024 would be a disaster... But I also think there's no serious alternative that is going to get near Biden and Trump. It'll be both those old crickedy fucks for sure come election day. 

But I honestly don't think it matters who wins, Republican/Democrat both do the same things it's just slightly different language. I think America being so split right now is by design. If the powers that be wanted to mend fences and bring some harmony to America they could but they choose not to. Why? Is there any good to it, no but I think the view is that a nation fighting each other can't focus on what the government are doing so they can do whatever they want. 

I wish an independent candidate would win, and cut out all the BS ties to the lobbies. Because you're right, when the US is a dumpster fire, it spreads well beyond America. 

[downzy]

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

But I honestly don't think it matters who wins, Republican/Democrat both do the same things it's just slightly different language.

Women interested in having reproductive rights and body sovereignty might feel differently.  

[downzy]

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

I think America being so split right now is by design

If by design you mean one group of people and party have actual policy prescriptions for actual problems while another want to talk about transgendered stalking little girls in women's washrooms, then we agree.

Ask a Republican what their policy positions are on healthcare, climate change, infrastructure, criminal justice reform, wealth inequality, or any other areas that need crucial attention by the government.  How many shots would you consume if you're required to drink every time they used the word "woke."

The primary split in America right now is MAGA vs non-MAGA.  That's it.  

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

If the powers that be wanted to mend fences and bring some harmony to America they could but they choose not to

Have you met the American people?  Do they currently seems like the kind of group of people that are actually interested in bridging their differences?

[Tom2112]

17 hours ago, downzy said:

If by design you mean one group of people and party have actual policy prescriptions for actual problems while another want to talk about transgendered stalking little girls in women's washrooms, then we agree.

Ask a Republican what their policy positions are on healthcare, climate change, infrastructure, criminal justice reform, wealth inequality, or any other areas that need crucial attention by the government.  How many shots would you consume if you're required to drink every time they used the word "woke."

The primary split in America right now is MAGA vs non-MAGA.  That's it.  

Have you met the American people?  Do they currently seems like the kind of group of people that are actually interested in bridging their differences?

Look, gun to my head (because we're talking USA😉) If I had to choose between the two then democrat is closer to where I fall on certain topics... 

The Americans I've met, have mostly consisted of people divorced from the topic OR Obsessed with 'getting Trump'. I think there's an appetite for things to simmer down though, there's a lot that just want the conversation to move past my politics vs yours. 

I don't really agree with your assessment that one is the voice of reason and the other is the radical one, there's radicalism in foreign policy that can be shared out equally for example. They are both failing the US people whenever they are in power. Is your life drastically different with Biden vs when Trump ran office? I'd imagine it's relatively the same minus the news mania that Trump brought with him. 

But, I don't live there (and wouldn't), but from the outside perspective reading about things, I just don't see this massive gulf between parties. 

 

[downzy]

1 hour ago, Tom2112 said:

I don't really agree with your assessment that one is the voice of reason and the other is the radical one, there's radicalism in foreign policy that can be shared out equally for example. They are both failing the US people whenever they are in power. Is your life drastically different with Biden vs when Trump ran office? I'd imagine it's relatively the same minus the news mania that Trump brought with him. 

But, I don't live there (and wouldn't), but from the outside perspective reading about things, I just don't see this massive gulf between parties. 

 

I don't mean to offend, but this is the take I often hear from people who either don't live in America and/or are not paying attention to what's going on in the country.

There are massive differences between each party, both in foreign policy and with respect to solving domestic issues.  Night and day differences.  

Again, i don't mean to be glib, but it's insane to suggest that American's aren't better off having Democrats in power on the federal level than Republicans.  Under Trump, the only notable piece of legislation they passed was a tax cut, that mostly went to rich people and allowed corporations to buy back shares (thus juicing the stock market further that further helped rich people, since they own the vast majority of stocks).  Outside of the First Step Act, which reformed the criminal justice system (that only saw opposition by Republicans), the U.S. federal government passed nothing to help Americans until covid hit.

Under Biden and Democratic control of Congress, America saw child poverty reduced by half in a year after the passage of the American Rescue Plan.  That's 5-6 million kids that no longer lived in poverty.  Not a single Republican lawmaker voted yes on this bill.  It was passed on a strict party-line basis.  It did many other things, but the fact alone that it rescued millions of kids from poverty is important.  To say that it doesn't matter who is in power is to ignore this reality.

When Trump was President, almost every other week was called infrastructure week.  But they never passed a single thing to address America's crumbling infrastructure.  

Biden was able to get Congress to pass $1 trillion in infrastructure that will take ten plus years to play out.  That means new roads, bridges, air ports, sea ports and will bring high-speed internet to much of rural America (despite most rural Americans not voting for Biden or Democrats).  Again, these are material differences that have a difference.  It has helped induce and transform an electric battery industry that almost non-existent just two years ago.  Hundreds of thousands of jobs will be created because government action created a market.   It passed almost exclusively in the House by Democrats, with every opposition coming from Republicans.  In the Senate a few more Republicans voted to support its passage, but of the 30 votes against it, all were Republican.

Democrats passed the Inflation Reduction Act, which lowered the price for health insurance plans, lowered drug costs, and required Medicare to negotiate the cost of the ten most used drugs in the U.S.  Again, not a single Republican in the House nor the Senate voted for it.  But many have launched re-election campaigns in their districts or states championing and taking credit for it.  

Then there was the CHIPS act, which is addressing both economic and security concerns relating to US reliance on Taiwan for semiconductor production.  It will take years, but the $50 billion investment should induce domestic production of sensitive semiconductors and put the country in a less precarious position should China take over Taiwan.  Again, Trump did nothing about this critical issue.

And for gay Americans, Democrats passed the Respect for Marriage Act that made gay marriage legal at the federal level as a hedge against any effort to ban it at the state level.  

And that's just off the top of my head.  I believe Congress did something under Biden that attempts to reduce gun violence with respect to red flag laws and bans on domestic abusers from owning guns, but I'd have to look it up.

So again, how anyone who is paying attention suggests that the two parties are more or less the same is more indicative of one's lack of awareness of what's going on.   And that's without bringing up the fact that one party tried to overturn the last President election because they didn't like the result.  Republicans were ready to end democracy in America as we know it because they couldn't stand up to the sensitivities of world class narcissist and con man.  

 

[Tom2112]

10 hours ago, downzy said:

I don't mean to offend, but this is the take I often hear from people who either don't live in America and/or are not paying attention to what's going on in the country.

There are massive differences between each party, both in foreign policy and with respect to solving domestic issues.  Night and day differences.  

Again, i don't mean to be glib, but it's insane to suggest that American's aren't better off having Democrats in power on the federal level than Republicans.  Under Trump, the only notable piece of legislation they passed was a tax cut, that mostly went to rich people and allowed corporations to buy back shares (thus juicing the stock market further that further helped rich people, since they own the vast majority of stocks).  Outside of the First Step Act, which reformed the criminal justice system (that only saw opposition by Republicans), the U.S. federal government passed nothing to help Americans until covid hit.

Under Biden and Democratic control of Congress, America saw child poverty reduced by half in a year after the passage of the American Rescue Plan.  That's 5-6 million kids that no longer lived in poverty.  Not a single Republican lawmaker voted yes on this bill.  It was passed on a strict party-line basis.  It did many other things, but the fact alone that it rescued millions of kids from poverty is important.  To say that it doesn't matter who is in power is to ignore this reality.

When Trump was President, almost every other week was called infrastructure week.  But they never passed a single thing to address America's crumbling infrastructure.  

Biden was able to get Congress to pass $1 trillion in infrastructure that will take ten plus years to play out.  That means new roads, bridges, air ports, sea ports and will bring high-speed internet to much of rural America (despite most rural Americans not voting for Biden or Democrats).  Again, these are material differences that have a difference.  It has helped induce and transform an electric battery industry that almost non-existent just two years ago.  Hundreds of thousands of jobs will be created because government action created a market.   It passed almost exclusively in the House by Democrats, with every opposition coming from Republicans.  In the Senate a few more Republicans voted to support its passage, but of the 30 votes against it, all were Republican.

Democrats passed the Inflation Reduction Act, which lowered the price for health insurance plans, lowered drug costs, and required Medicare to negotiate the cost of the ten most used drugs in the U.S.  Again, not a single Republican in the House nor the Senate voted for it.  But many have launched re-election campaigns in their districts or states championing and taking credit for it.  

Then there was the CHIPS act, which is addressing both economic and security concerns relating to US reliance on Taiwan for semiconductor production.  It will take years, but the $50 billion investment should induce domestic production of sensitive semiconductors and put the country in a less precarious position should China take over Taiwan.  Again, Trump did nothing about this critical issue.

And for gay Americans, Democrats passed the Respect for Marriage Act that made gay marriage legal at the federal level as a hedge against any effort to ban it at the state level.  

And that's just off the top of my head.  I believe Congress did something under Biden that attempts to reduce gun violence with respect to red flag laws and bans on domestic abusers from owning guns, but I'd have to look it up.

So again, how anyone who is paying attention suggests that the two parties are more or less the same is more indicative of one's lack of awareness of what's going on.   And that's without bringing up the fact that one party tried to overturn the last President election because they didn't like the result.  Republicans were ready to end democracy in America as we know it because they couldn't stand up to the sensitivities of world class narcissist and con man.  

 

Well, I wouldn't argue that I'm an expert on the subject by any means! But I certainly do know a fair amount about the history of America and its politics to say with a good confidence that there's more similarities than differences.

I don't deny Democrats have made some positive changes. I mean Trump backed out of the climate change initiative, Biden signed back on. There's many positives, some of which you mentioned. But if we're being totally honest, Biden has continued several schemes he criticized Trump over, his people are just much better at hiding things. I don't know the parties records for doing good vs bad off the top of my head, I'd have to do a lot of research to debate that. 

As for contesting the 2020 election, agreed that was incredibly dangerous. I will point out that democrats to this this day contest Trump's 2016 win "it was a Russia hack... He's a Russian agent" #notmypresident  all of which has been debunked, yet still repeated as fact. 

Like I said, I prefer the democrat stance on a host of things - civil liberties, climate. 

And also not to be insulting to you, but I think when you live there you get wrapped up in the "my team is better than yours" mentality, I'm sure if I spoke to a die hard for the Republican side they could list off a similar list of positives that they've done. 

And as far as narcissistic conmen/women being elected... I mean throw a rock and you hit one of those in either party, the difference is usually years of career politics helping to hide the rough edges. 

[downzy]

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

As for contesting the 2020 election, agreed that was incredibly dangerous. I will point out that democrats to this this day contest Trump's 2016 win "it was a Russia hack... He's a Russian agent" #notmypresident  all of which has been debunked, yet still repeated as fact. 

When you say Democrats contested the election, you mean a handful, and that the party or the majority of its membership attempted to call into question the vote totals, didn't orchestrate an alternative set of electors, nor did they call upon Clinton supporters to protest and "fight" outside the capital that resulted in a violent invasion as a means to upend American democracy.  

Sorry, but this is an absolute horseshit of a false equivalency.  Clinton conceded the day after the election.  How anyone doesn't find a world of difference between the two is absurd.

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Biden has continued several schemes he criticized Trump over, his people are just much better at hiding things

So Biden is doing the same shitty things as Trump, but we just don't know about them because they're just better at it.  You understand why no one should take that argument at face value, right?

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

And also not to be insulting to you, but I think when you live there you get wrapped up in the "my team is better than yours" mentality, I'm sure if I spoke to a die hard for the Republican side they could list off a similar list of positives that they've done.

Except they can't.  They'll offer vague generalities about how Trump made America "great again" without pointing to a particular policy or executive action.  You claim that there's no difference between Republican and Democrats when it comes to making the lives of average Americans better.  But why is it that when you ask a Republican they can't provide a specific list of legislative achievements as evidence that Republicans actually accomplish anything meaningful?  Hell, they have a hard enough time picking a Speaker in the House.

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

And as far as narcissistic conmen/women being elected... I mean throw a rock and you hit one of those in either party, the difference is usually years of career politics helping to hide the rough edges. 

Great, provide an example.

[Tom2112]

27 minutes ago, downzy said:

When you say Democrats contested the election, you mean a handful, and that the party or the majority of its membership attempted to call into question the vote totals, didn't orchestrate an alternative set of electors, nor did they call upon Clinton supporters to protest and "fight" outside the capital that resulted in a violent invasion as a means to upend American democracy.  

Sorry, but this is an absolute horseshit of a false equivalency.  Clinton conceded the day after the election.  How anyone doesn't find a world of difference between the two is absurd.

So Biden is doing the same shitty things as Trump, but we just don't know about them because they're just better at it.  You understand why no one should take that argument at face value, right?

Except they can't.  They'll offer vague generalities about how Trump made America "great again" without pointing to a particular policy or executive action.  You claim that there's no difference between Republican and Democrats when it comes to making the lives of average Americans better.  But why is it that when you ask a Republican they can't provide a specific list of legislative achievements as evidence that Republicans actually accomplish anything meaningful?  Hell, they have a hard enough time picking a Speaker in the House.

Great, provide an example.

Yes, she conceded because the victory was plain as could be, it wasn't a few thousand votes that could be easily called for a recount. The problem started after on her press tour where the Russia tampering story emerged. So yes she conceded, but she also did it with a woe is me "I only lost because of Russian intrusion". I fully believe Trump lost in 2020 fair and square and embarrassed himself with the accusation of tampering. Do you believe he won 2016 fairly? 

Biden continuing Trump policies aren't undercover ops,I'm not talking about conspiracy BS. Border policy, Mexico wall is being continued. Pretty bad with expulsion of refugees from the US, higher numbers than Trump since he took office. The "America first" policy is still going strong, he hasn't re-signed the Iran nuclear deal he criticized Trump for leaving. I mean there's plenty if you want to look. 

Come on, that is some incredible BS. Yes they are all the most honorable of honorable citizens😉 Republican bad, Democrat good. Thank you for teaching me American politics. If we start listing politicians who have been caught in lies and deny them we will be here all day, and you rightly know that. I'm honestly not sure which party would be more guilty! I would love to see the stats.

We could go back and forward all day, and I agree with certain points you've made. 

[downzy]

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Yes, she conceded because the victory was plain as could be, it wasn't a few thousand votes that could be easily called for a recount. The problem started after on her press tour where the Russia tampering story emerged. So yes she conceded, but she also did it with a woe is me "I only lost because of Russian intrusion". I fully believe Trump lost in 2020 fair and square and embarrassed himself with the accusation of tampering. Do you believe he won 2016 fairly? 

You're conflating the two and also creating a false equivalency.

Russia absolutely interfered in the 2016 election.  That is true.  Democrats are not attempting to upend the election results because of it.  They, as a party, never contested the election results and never claimed that Trump wasn't the duly elected President.  It's possible to both say that Trump legitimately won in 2016 but Russian interfered on his behalf (but not at his behest, though he did ask them to hack Clinton's emails and release them).  This is a far cry from what Republicans did when Biden won in 2020.  Most Republican House members voted against certifying the election.  Had a Democrat (Pelosi) not been House Speaker we could have very well seen a constitutional crisis.  Most Republicans still will not acknowledge that Biden legitimately won.  Again, it's night and day.  To claim the two parties are similar on this matter is wrong.  Really wrong.

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Biden continuing Trump policies aren't undercover ops,I'm not talking about conspiracy BS. Border policy, Mexico wall is being continued. Pretty bad with expulsion of refugees from the US, higher numbers than Trump since he took office

Except Biden faces a different reality than Trump.  First, Biden's effort to remove Title 42 that prevented migrants from applying for asylum was blocked down by the courts until this past summer.  Legally the Biden administration was denied from doing much as his executive orders were held up in courts.  Second, when they finally were able to end Title 42 it created a huge rush of migrants crossing into the border, beyond anything we had ever seen before.  Moreover it was beyond what border control could manage.  There have been far more people trying to enter the US in the last two to three years than at any point during the Trump presidency.  It's not even close:

What would you have the Biden and the country to do at this point?  Do nothing?  That's a guarantee way to bring Republicans back into power.

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Come on, that is some incredible BS.

You'll have to be more specific since you don't make clear what point of mine you're addressing.  

[Tom2112]

3 hours ago, downzy said:

You're conflating the two and also creating a false equivalency.

Russia absolutely interfered in the 2016 election.  That is true.  Democrats are not attempting to upend the election results because of it.  They, as a party, never contested the election results and never claimed that Trump wasn't the duly elected President.  It's possible to both say that Trump legitimately won in 2016 but Russian interfered on his behalf (but not at his behest, though he did ask them to hack Clinton's emails and release them).  This is a far cry from what Republicans did when Biden won in 2020.  Most Republican House members voted against certifying the election.  Had a Democrat (Pelosi) not been House Speaker we could have very well seen a constitutional crisis.  Most Republicans still will not acknowledge that Biden legitimately won.  Again, it's night and day.  To claim the two parties are similar on this matter is wrong.  Really wrong.

Except Biden faces a different reality than Trump.  First, Biden's effort to remove Title 42 that prevented migrants from applying for asylum was blocked down by the courts until this past summer.  Legally the Biden administration was denied from doing much as his executive orders were held up in courts.  Second, when they finally were able to end Title 42 it created a huge rush of migrants crossing into the border, beyond anything we had ever seen before.  Moreover it was beyond what border control could manage.  There have been far more people trying to enter the US in the last two to three years than at any point during the Trump presidency.  It's not even close:

What would you have the Biden and the country to do at this point?  Do nothing?  That's a guarantee way to bring Republicans back into power.

You'll have to be more specific since you don't make clear what point of mine you're addressing.  

Now, now Downzy, that's very shaky gound. Russia didn't win Trump's election for him, Hilary lost it fair and square because she illegally took classified documents out of the restricted area and someone hacked her computer, the suggestion was it was Russia (possibly legitimate), but of course they are the boogie man for all things USA. ...Taking classified documents🤔 did someone else do this recently😄

I agree, that it's not a complete equivalent to the riot and non conceding of victory, that's indefensible and I wasn't suggesting it was. But it has similarities, even if it was 100 times more peaceful and polite.

However, the knowingly false rhetoric she started planted a seed that stained the Trump adminstration (they needed no help) from day 1 and helped widen the gap between the general public. Sour grapes is an understatement. And she was no stranger to colluding. There are plenty of other leaked documents out there that discuss Clinton foundation funds paying people to enter Trump rallies (not the 2020 riots) and cause trouble. I mean neither side are saints. And we all know this is a common practice, again I'm not defending the actions of the 2020 election riot.

As for the migration stuff that's fair, it's just unfortunate that Biden used the wall and Trump's migrant handling as a club to beat him on that campaign trail, he seemed to think he could do it better and he hasn't for one reason or another. It's not always easy to get things done when you have opposing parties with more seats voting you down. Something that hinders most political parties, including the Republicans. 

Look, I respect your opinion on this. You certainly know a lot and you're not afraid to find a good graph to send a point home😄. I concede certain points others not so much! 🤺 Thanks for the duel, I'm out!

[downzy]

1 hour ago, Tom2112 said:

Now, now Downzy, that's very shaky gound. Russia didn't win Trump's election for him, Hilary lost it fair and square because she illegally took classified documents out of the restricted area and someone hacked her computer, the suggestion was it was Russia (possibly legitimate), but of course they are the boogie man for all things USA. ...Taking classified documents🤔 did someone else do this recently😄

Hillary didn't "illegally take classified documents out of the restricted area."   

Nobody "hacked her computer."  

Nobody claimed that Russia hacked Hillary's computer.

What Russia did hack was the DNC and the emails of Clinton's campaign char, using a program called Mimikatz.  This is all described in the Mueller report.  

In both the FBI investigation (that resulted in numerous charges) and the Senate Intelligence investigation it was found that Russia used multiple means to influence U.S. voters to suppress support for Clinton and bolster it for Trump.  It even had a name - Project Lakhta.  Russia setup troll farms that created thousands of fake social media accounts that purported to be Americans that helped spread misinformation within the 2016 election cycle.  This, along with hacking the DNC and Podesta - Clinton's campaign chairman, is what people are talking about when they say that Russia meddled in the 2016 election.  Not that they hacked Clinton's emails that involved classified information.  

1 hour ago, Tom2112 said:

But it has similarities, even if it was 100 times more peaceful and polite.

It would have similarities if what you described above was true.

1 hour ago, Tom2112 said:

However, the knowingly false rhetoric she started planted a seed that stained the Trump adminstration (they needed no help) from day 1 and helped widen the gap between the general public.

It wasn't Clinton who started anything.  It was actually McCain that turned over the Steel dossier to the FBI.  

Moreover, it's not false to say that Russia made attempts to sway the election.  Considering how close the election was (77k votes), it's not exactly a stretch to say that Russia's actions likely swung the results for Trump.  But no Demcrat claimed it was fraud, that the results should be overturned, and that Clinton should be sworn in.  

1 hour ago, Tom2112 said:

There are plenty of other leaked documents out there that discuss Clinton foundation funds paying people to enter Trump rallies (not the 2020 riots) and cause trouble.

I've never heard of this.  I'd love to see where you're getting this information from.

1 hour ago, Tom2112 said:

As for the migration stuff that's fair, it's just unfortunate that Biden used the wall and Trump's migrant handling as a club to beat him on that campaign trail, he seemed to think he could do it better and he hasn't for one reason or another. It's not always easy to get things done when you have opposing parties with more seats voting you down. Something that hinders most political parties, including the Republicans. 

Trump had complete control of Congress in his first two years.  Republicans were in position to fund the wall had they so chosen to.   But they didn't.  They didn't pass anything other than a tax cut for the wealthy and corporations.

Trump used illegal immigrants to stoke fear about a situation that wasn't nearly as dire as he depicted.  Biden's situation is completely different.  Keep in mind that there were certain parts of the border that had a wall prior to Trump.  It's not a new idea.  What was new was that Trump wanted to wall off the entire border; something that Biden still opposes.  

1 hour ago, Tom2112 said:

Look, I respect your opinion on this. You certainly know a lot and you're not afraid to find a good graph to send a point home😄. I concede certain points others not so much! 🤺 Thanks for the duel, I'm out!

Thanks.  I don't mean to be harsh but it's difficult at times to take discussions on a fan forum at face value at times.  You mean well and I appreciate that.  But some of your opinions are based on information that simply isn't true or born out by facts.  The discussion started by your assertion that there isn't much difference between America's two major parties.  And many years ago that would have been mostly true.  But in 2023, there could not be a wider gap between Republicans and Democrats.  I don't agree with everything Democrats do and I think they're in real trouble if they don't address issues like the border and debt (especially debt), but they are the only party of the two that have any grasp on reality.  It's a fairly large chasm between their views and Republicans on abortion, climate change, democracy, wealth inequality, and even immigration.  I find it incredible that anyone would believe that their differences are minor.  I do think that most Americans agree on most issues, but unfortunately that's not reflected in federal politics.    

[-W.A.R-]

Israel is committing an atrocity and the US is fully complicit. Not only is the current policy indefensible and evil but it's suicidal as things escalate.

[downzy]

23 hours ago, -W.A.R- said:

Israel is committing an atrocity and the US is fully complicit. Not only is the current policy indefensible and evil but it's suicidal as things escalate.

Israel would have been far better off going with a counter-insurgency/terrorism approach than what they're going with now. 

Way too heavy-handed for what they're trying to accomplish (unless what they're trying to do is the outright destruction of Gaza and the resettlement of its 2.2 million inhabitants).

I suspect that had this attack occurred shortly after the US federal election this year we'd like see a different approach taken by the Biden administration.  

 

[-W.A.R-]

17 hours ago, downzy said:

unless what they're trying to do is the outright destruction of Gaza and the resettlement of its 2.2 million inhabitants).

That is exactly what they are doing. They are calling it "voluntary migration" as if making Gaza uninhabitable makes it voluntary.

17 hours ago, downzy said:

I suspect that had this attack occurred shortly after the US federal election this year we'd like see a different approach taken by the Biden administration. 

I have to disagree with you on this Joe Biden Has the Political Space to Push for a Cease-Fire in Gaza. He Just Doesn’t Want To. But even if cutting Israel off and calling for a ceasefire was a politically untenable position, it would still be the necessary one to take. It can't have the same consideration as something like student loan forgiveness.

[Graeme]

I love the smell of accountability in the morning.

[colonizedmind]

On 10/4/2023 at 2:52 AM, downzy said:

 

Is Biden facing jail time?

For what?

"Trumped up charges" literally this time 😸

Edited February 18 by colonizedmind

[Lio]

Eight years later neither of the parties have found a candidate. Very depressing and scary. Two very old men are all they can offer to lead a super power.

I remember when Kamala Harris would take over two years into the presidency. Now all these years later Biden will be running for a second term? Are we supposed to forget he's in his 80s? In the newspaper here a geriatrist compared it to having an 80 year old drive a F1 car. Of course not all old people are senile, but to have the job of president of the US you should be in your peak, right? I think no one can say with a straight face anyone could ever be in their peak at 80. (Unless Cocoon is real.)

Isn't there any other Democrat candidate? Have the Democrats simply given up looking for anyone? And was Kamala really that bad? (I don't remember what she did wrong, I vaguely remember her stuffing up soon after she became VP.) At least here in the press, we don't read anything about other Democrats, only Biden.

Of course all of this goes for the Republicans too, but there were at least a few other candidates.

 

[Rindmelon]

1 hour ago, Lio said:

Eight years later neither of the parties have found a candidate. Very depressing and scary. Two very old men are all they can offer to lead a super power.

I remember when Kamala Harris would take over two years into the presidency. Now all these years later Biden will be running for a second term? Are we supposed to forget he's in his 80s? In the newspaper here a geriatrist compared it to having an 80 year old drive a F1 car. Of course not all old people are senile, but to have the job of president of the US you should be in your peak, right? I think no one can say with a straight face anyone could ever be in their peak at 80. (Unless Cocoon is real.)

Isn't there any other Democrat candidate? Have the Democrats simply given up looking for anyone? And was Kamala really that bad? (I don't remember what she did wrong, I vaguely remember her stuffing up soon after she became VP.) At least here in the press, we don't read anything about other Democrats, only Biden.

Of course all of this goes for the Republicans too, but there were at least a few other candidates.

 

You did have other Dems trying like Marianne Williamson for example but from the outside looking in it would appear like the fix is in to a degree. Other campaigns would only get momentum if they receive decent coverage and outlets like MSNBC are not going to give exposure for those candidates on the same level as Biden.

Now that could be because those candidates hold positions and have policies that might not be in interest of those who own media & so they don't give them exposure. Or it could well be that they feel it is so dangerous from there perspective to endure a second Trump presidency that they feel they have to push Biden to the moon, they may feel that he has a better chance of beating Trump than say Cenk Uygur. We will find out if they are right or not.

As far as the left goes generally speaking for people under the age of say 40 or so they get there news and political opinion from online channels like TYT, Majority Report, Secular Talks ect Biden is far from popular in those circles. But probably the majority of people inclined to vote Dem get there info from MSNBC, CNN and legacy media.

Those old school media will push for Biden and they will push the narrative that 'the steaks have never been higher' & in this election they may be right on that. The problem is that when that narrative is pushed in the build up to every election (& it is) people just wind up completely disengaged. At least that's how it looks to me from the outside looking in.

Will be interesting to see what happens.

[highvoltage]

Track record on policy means fuck all in this country. Personality and public perception win presidential elections.

I'm in a very liberal part of Colorado (Denver area) and the voters here I talk to seem to have a hard time giving the Biden administration credit for literally anything that they have done. 
The perception (as inaccurate as it may be) is that the economy was better under Trump. They don't seem to want to acknowledge gains in the labor or stock markets. They don't acknowledge how much got done before the Dems lost the house. 
The hightened cost of living seems to support the view that Biden has mishandled things overall. Gas and grocery prices are what's in people's faces every single day. 

Trump has the bigger cult of personality and authoritarian charisma is still charisma at the end of the day. If I were putting money on it, it would be that he wins it. 

[adamsapple]

As a European, I used to look up to America. Not anymore.

You don't have to hate one thing to love another, but it's all just mere divide and conquer - and you embrace that with a passion without even thinking. Just look at this discussion here, it's a perfect example of that.

Your votes don't mean shit as your POTUS is selected by the MIC, you are just cattle and cannon fodder to them.

It's gonna be Michelle or Kamala next time. It's all they will offer you. And you gonna be good sheep and select whoever looks nicer on TV or caters most to your own bubble - only to end up with the same shit, just worse.

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." You're all getting fooled, over and over again.

Take a look around, read up on history and make up your mind. 

That being said, it's not any better in Europe.

 

Edited February 21 by adamsapple