The US Politics/Elections Thread 2.0

[luciusfunk]

But the US isn't a democracy...Never was.

[SoulMonster]

9 minutes ago, luciusfunk said:

But the US isn't a democracy...Never was.

It is a democracy but with a fairly low democracy score and is referred to as a "flawed democracy". With Trump, I suspect it will fall even more on the ranking. Again, why aren't voters concerned over this, especially those that mistrust politicians and "the elite"?

The Economist Democracy Index - Wikipedia

[grouse]

"So dr oz guys isnt he the guy that does some medical stuff on tv, I'm sure he'd do a great job doing political stuff let's pick that guy."

Haha fucking hell what a shitshow US politics are these days. This is like watching a real life soap opera. I'm actually feeling sorry for you guys. 🙁

[luciusfunk]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

It is a democracy but with a fairly low democracy score and is referred to as a "flawed democracy". With Trump, I suspect it will fall even more on the ranking. Again, why aren't voters concerned over this, especially those that mistrust politicians and "the elite"?

The Economist Democracy Index - Wikipedia

The United States is a republic. It is not a democracy.

[SoulMonster]

22 minutes ago, luciusfunk said:

The United States is a republic. It is not a democracy.

A republic just means it doesn't have a monarchy that rules, but instead it is ruled through the public and their representatives. A country can easily be both a democracy and a republic. In fact, many democracies are. 

It's funny, over the last few weeks in this vey thread there's been two Americans living under the impression that the USA is not a democracy but a republic. Is this nonsense being spread on social media?

[luciusfunk]

25 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

A republic just means it doesn't have a monarchy that rules, but instead it is ruled through the public and their representatives. A country can easily be both a democracy and a republic. In fact, many democracies are. 

It's funny, over the last few weeks in this vey thread there's been two Americans living under the impression that the USA is not a democracy but a republic. Is this nonsense being spread on social media?

No, this “nonsense” has been spreading for about 248 years. 

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, luciusfunk said:

No, this “nonsense” has been spreading for about 248 years. 

But you do understand now that USA is both a republic and a democracy, right?

Yes, the Constitution Set Up a Democracy - The Atlantic
Is America a democracy or a republic? Yes, it is : NPR
Was the United States Founded as a Republic or a Democracy?

I honestly believe this nonsense that the USA is not a democracy (and it is absurd to even type such words) is particularly being spread by MAGA to further erode trust in the US democratic processes paving the way for a gradual dismantling of democracy towards a more totalitarian system.

[luciusfunk]

5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

But you do understand now that USA is both a republic and a democracy, right?

Yes, the Constitution Set Up a Democracy - The Atlantic
Is America a democracy or a republic? Yes, it is : NPR
Was the United States Founded as a Republic or a Democracy?

I honestly believe this nonsense that the USA is not a democracy (and it is absurd to even type such words) is particularly being spread by MAGA to further erode trust in the US democratic processes paving the way for a gradual dismantling of democracy towards a more totalitarian system.

Whatever dude. It uses democracy but the country is a republic. 
 

Your link even says it’s a republic. 

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, luciusfunk said:

Whatever dude. It uses democracy but the country is a republic. 
 

Your link even says it’s a republic. 

As I said, it is both. These are not mutually exclusive terms. And you are right, it uses democratic principles. Not to the extent where it is a "pure democracy" in which all votes are direct with no representatives, but where power lies with the people. Then there are anti-democratic check and balances in the systems to prevent "mob rule by the majority" some of which aren't working very well and hence USA gets a fairly low democracy score and is referred to as a flawed democracy. Yet still a democracy because people rule (through representation and elections).

[luciusfunk]

Whatever dude...

[grouse]

42 minutes ago, luciusfunk said:

Whatever dude...

That's one way to try to win an argument 😂

[luciusfunk]

17 minutes ago, grouse said:

That's one way to try to win an argument 😂

Not trying to win. There is no winning. It's just me giving up on talking to a brick wall. It's futile.

Edited November 20, 2024 by luciusfunk

[SoulMonster]

15 minutes ago, luciusfunk said:

Not trying to win. There is no winning. It's just me giving up on talking to a brick wall. It's futile.

But you didn't present an argument for why it isn't a democracy. You just said it isn't. I, on the other hand, did argue for why it is a democracy, presenting arguments you could potentially counter and possibly resulting in an agreement. Still, I am the brickwall? 

Again, you can define democracy in any which way. The founding fathers, in their distrust of democracy, were thinking about pure democracy/direct democracy where everybody gets a voter and you have direct elections (instead of electing representatives), so they abhorred democracy and implemented anti-democratic systems in the constitution. They also abhorred monarchy. Their solution was a republic, but still based on democratic principles (as in the power resting with the public through elections of governments). There are no pure democracies today, as far as I know, no country is 100% governed through direct elections. So in that sense, no country is 100% democratic; all western countries have variations of representative democracies where people are elected to govern on behalf of the public. Norway is a parliamentary constitutional monarchy (yet still democratic because we have depowered the king so people rule), Germany is a federal parliamentary republic (because it doesn't have a monarchy anymore; yet still a democracy) and USA is a federal presidential republic (again a democracy, just not a direct democracy nor particularly well functioning. All of these are democratic forms of governments because people have the power to steer the country through elections; people rule 8or are supposed to). The extent to which these democracies are pure, defines to what extent it is a democracy; and the functioning of the checks and balances defines to what extent it is working or flawed. USA is unfortunately flawed. One reason is that you can become a president without getting the "popular vote". 

[luciusfunk]

9 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

But you didn't present an argument for why it isn't a democracy. You just said it isn't. I, on the other hand, did argue for why it is a democracy, presenting arguments you could potentially counter and possibly resulting in an agreement. Still, I am the brickwall? 

Again, you can define democracy in any which way. The founding fathers, in their distrust of democracy, were thinking about pure democracy/direct democracy where everybody gets a voter and you have direct elections (instead of electing representatives), so they abhorred democracy and implemented anti-democratic systems in the constitution. They also abhorred monarchy. Their solution was a republic, but still based on democratic principles (as in the power resting with the public through elections of governments). There are no pure democracies today, as far as I know, no country is 100% governed through direct elections. So in that sense, no country is 100% democratic; all western countries have variations of representative democracies where people are elected to govern on behalf of the public. Norway is a parliamentary constitutional monarchy (yet still democratic because we have depowered the king so people rule), Germany is a federal parliamentary republic (because it doesn't have a monarchy anymore; yet still a democracy) and USA is a federal presidential republic (again a democracy, just not a direct democracy nor particularly well functioning. All of these are democratic forms of governments because people have the power to steer the country through elections; people rule 8or are supposed to). The extent to which these democracies are pure, defines to what extent it is a democracy; and the functioning of the checks and balances defines to what extent it is working or flawed. USA is unfortunately flawed. One reason is that you can become a president without getting the "popular vote". 

[grouse]

1 hour ago, luciusfunk said:

Not trying to win. There is no winning. It's just me giving up on talking to a brick wall. It's futile.

Soulmonster is presenting you facts. So yeah it's kinda hard to refute those, aka the brick wall you mentioned

[Lio]

12 hours ago, grouse said:

"So dr oz guys isnt he the guy that does some medical stuff on tv, I'm sure he'd do a great job doing political stuff let's pick that guy."

Haha fucking hell what a shitshow US politics are these days. This is like watching a real life soap opera. I'm actually feeling sorry for you guys. 🙁

When I first read this, I thought you were kidding and now I found out you're not 

[Dazey]

11 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

But you didn't present an argument for why it isn't a democracy. You just said it isn't. I, on the other hand, did argue for why it is a democracy, presenting arguments you could potentially counter and possibly resulting in an agreement. Still, I am the brickwall? 

Again, you can define democracy in any which way. The founding fathers, in their distrust of democracy, were thinking about pure democracy/direct democracy where everybody gets a voter and you have direct elections (instead of electing representatives), so they abhorred democracy and implemented anti-democratic systems in the constitution. They also abhorred monarchy. Their solution was a republic, but still based on democratic principles (as in the power resting with the public through elections of governments). There are no pure democracies today, as far as I know, no country is 100% governed through direct elections. So in that sense, no country is 100% democratic; all western countries have variations of representative democracies where people are elected to govern on behalf of the public. Norway is a parliamentary constitutional monarchy (yet still democratic because we have depowered the king so people rule), Germany is a federal parliamentary republic (because it doesn't have a monarchy anymore; yet still a democracy) and USA is a federal presidential republic (again a democracy, just not a direct democracy nor particularly well functioning. All of these are democratic forms of governments because people have the power to steer the country through elections; people rule 8or are supposed to). The extent to which these democracies are pure, defines to what extent it is a democracy; and the functioning of the checks and balances defines to what extent it is working or flawed. USA is unfortunately flawed. One reason is that you can become a president without getting the "popular vote". 

Pretty much why I stopped arguing with you about 10 years ago. Even if you were wrong (not saying you are) you'd still beat me into submission with your sheer level of argumentativeness.  

[grouse]

11 hours ago, luciusfunk said:

How is this even a reply, this is a preschool level of debate. I am sticking my fingers into my ears and im not listening.

[evilfacelessturtle]

15 hours ago, luciusfunk said:

Not trying to win. There is no winning. It's just me giving up on talking to a brick wall. It's futile.

No, that's you being too cowardly to admit defeat. America is a Democratic Republic. Go back to grade school.

[evilfacelessturtle]

14 hours ago, luciusfunk said:

The Right doesn't listen to anything that doesn't validate their beliefs. What a shock.

The MAGA movement can only survive by sealing themselves into a safe space bubble where nothing that challenges their ideology gets through.

Remember this quote, folks. It's all a game to them, there is no serious discussion to be had.

"They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words ... They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past." - Jean Paul Sartre

[SoulMonster]

8 hours ago, Dazey said:

Pretty much why I stopped arguing with you about 10 years ago. Even if you were wrong (not saying you are) you'd still beat me into submission with your sheer level of argumentativeness.  

Uhm, thank you? 

There might be some doggedness in my refusal to let someone get away with just refuting facts or arguments.

Anyway, this particular discussion is a good example of how I function in discussions. At first it was almost disbelief ("No, people surely can't believe USA is not a democracy?!") and then I started looking into it, reading articles from people who say it isn't, trying to understand their point of view, reading about the founding fathers and the development of the republic and their anti-democratic stance, how the definition of democracy has changed since then from what we now refer to as a direct democracy to what is representative democracies, even reading parts of the constitution, reading how the definition or understanding of democracy is slightly different in europe vs the us, reading about democracies around the world, reading about government forms, reading about republics, reading lots of articles by people talking about democracies and republics and why the us is a democracy and a republic, and even prompting chatgtp with "why the USA isn't a democracy" and "why the USA is a democracy" to summarize and see if something has escaped me. 

And yes, there is a level of bragging here -- or perhaps more a sense of pride of my willingness to read up on matters, it's what I have been taught to do and what I enjoy doing -- but I still believe that form of bragging is better, or more excusable, than bragging about ignorance and bragging about an unwillingness to read and learn. When did we get to a point where being clueless is good? When incompetence became a badge of honor? When refusal to listen became acceptable? Was it before they elected Trump and was he just a symptom of this sickness that had already taken hold in the American people, or did it happen afterwards in a grotesque form of trickle-down flaw?

Edited November 21, 2024 by SoulMonster

[WhazUp]

19 hours ago, luciusfunk said:

You should, some good facts you may learn stuff from in it

[Sweersa]

On 11/20/2024 at 2:37 AM, grouse said:

"So dr oz guys isnt he the guy that does some medical stuff on tv, I'm sure he'd do a great job doing political stuff let's pick that guy."

Haha fucking hell what a shitshow US politics are these days. This is like watching a real life soap opera. I'm actually feeling sorry for you guys. 🙁

Yes, please, everyone stay away from America! It’s terrible here. Please don’t try to come here. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

😉 

[grouse]

2 hours ago, Sweersa said:

Yes, please, everyone stay away from America! It’s terrible here. Please don’t try to come here. 

I know you made that comment in jest but over here we are taking measures to make it less desirable for Americans to come here because there are just too many coming in so there's that.

[Sweersa]

1 hour ago, grouse said:

I know you made that comment in jest but over here we are taking measures to make it less desirable for Americans to come here because there are just too many coming in so there's that.

I can certainly appreciate that, especially if they don’t integrate well into your culture and/or economy.