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Any theories why Axl is such a prolific tourer in the last decade?


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3 hours ago, lame ass security said:

Maybe the time came where he actually needed the money. A person on the documentary that I watched last night, I cant recall who it was, said that Axl was nearly broke prior to the reunion. But who knows.

Broke by Axl standards. Not real broke. I still believe it was also motivated by the bands legacy. Axl didn’t want GNR to be remembered as a joke or a what if. And The bands legacy would have been solely on Axl. 

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1 dollar 2 dollar 3 dollar...  

People that think rockstars are automatically rich and set for life don't realize the vast majority of rockstars go broke, and when you are making money in the late 80's/early 90's expenses rise to in

Money.   /Thread.

2 hours ago, Nice Boy said:

If his only motivation was greed he wouldn't have spent most of the UYI tour only breaking even.

I don't mind the disagreement that the only motivation is money but the UYI tour isn't a good a example of motivations now.

Edited by -W.A.R-
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True the circumstances are way different now to the UYI tour era. 

I don't think it's unreasonable to tour for money, not least because as someone pointed out above, in the UYI era bands toured to break even and made money by selling records. Now it's more the reverse, the records make fuck all money so the touring has to be the earner 

Also I think they are actually conscious of legacy, plus actually giving fans what they want. People in this forum have developed and given each other a really cynical attitude since no new music has appeared but I think it will for the same reason, they are very conscious of legacy no matter how much it might appear otherwise. And Axl is slow to release music not because he is 'lazy'. There are numerous reasons, probably including:

Being an obsessive perfectionist

Actually nervous about public reaction to new album (wouldn't you be if you'd spent a zillion dollars and years to produce CD and get that reaction?)

Co-ordinating the band, to agree on musical direction 

A ton of legal issues - that is my guess why a lot of material including leaked stuff hasn't been given an official release.

 

I'm not totally apologetic of the band. I just don't get the constant negative narrative from some in here that goes "I hate this band / they are just greedy / were never going to get an album." We might not but probably will is my guess. 

Personally I'd prefer a band to have a small, decent catalogue than release a dozen mediocre albums for the sake of it. If it takes time, so be it. 

 

Also. Regarding all the tacky merchandise that gets released. That is not happening "instead" of a new album. You gotta remember, the GnR franchise is a huge enterprise run by corporate men who are coining it in by selling crap yes, but  -  that doesn't mean it's the actual band sitting around saying "I know, let's sell a toy truck."

In fact we know that they have been opposed to the selling of tacky crap. One example being from when I met the designer guy from Universal who told me the band were against the inclusion of all that junk in the AFD boxset. But the record company insisted on it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Nice Boy
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2 hours ago, Nice Boy said:

Personally I'd prefer a band to have a small, decent catalogue than release a dozen mediocre albums for the sake of it. If it takes time, so be it.

works as a general statement for me. Not so much when it's 30 years and 15 songs. Main reason is you don't get to experience the musical journey you usually take with the musician if they release even 1 album every 5-6 years.

 

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16 hours ago, Beto 22 said:

I won't put statements on people finances cause I don't have any knowledge about it... But the rumour was that Slash was in a bad position financially  after the divorce ...

Yeah - I think it's pretty well known they waited to make the reunion official once Slash's divorce was finalized.

16 hours ago, Beto 22 said:

Maybe he still thought he could carry the flag alone more than he should....

Yup - I think it was a combination of truly believing in the New GNR project and feeling deeply burned by the old band. Then it all kind of came to a head and it made sense to pursue this. 

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8 hours ago, Nice Boy said:

Co-ordinating the band, to agree on musical direction 

Personally this is the  main reason we probably will neve see any new music in the near future... Nobody will jeopardize an operation this big because of silly "creative differences" when Slash has his solo project, Duff has his solo carreer and his "corporate" endeauvors  and Axl not having problems of creating something he won't ever release...

For me the most probably scenario is when the reunion starts to lose momentum they will take a 4, 5 years break and comeback again and make huge amount of money...

Edited by Beto 22
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Ok, I'll add a few thoughts from your posts :

Yes I would expect that Axl was desperate for cash - I would guess the only real income he would have had from '93 until NITL was the publishing. The record co paid the bills for CD, but equally they would have taken the bulk, if not all, of the Best Buy deal to recover. I don't think the UYI tour made much either since, despite being a massive tour, had to pay a lot of fines and there was quite a bit of largesse which doesn't come cheap. Post UYI, running a large operation for 20 years and basically having nothing to show for it doesn't come cheap - Axl as the owner would have got paid last in all that. Everything you say about the various things he was sued for, along with the mortgage info all point the same way. Even renting a Bentley rather than buying outright speaks to this. So I'd say he was reasonably well off, but no where near to the degree those sites you talk about and certainly not enough to keep him going in the lifestyle he was accustomed to.

The publishing side is interesting. Looking at this article https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/arts/music/merck-mercuriadis-hipgnosis.html

Working backward from the price paid for a catalogue you can estimate what it brings in each year - "Hipgnosis has disclosed that its average multiple is 14.76, although Mercuriadis said that for some “important” catalogs it has paid multiples as high as 22". "Bob Dylan signed away his entire corpus of more than 600 copyrights for a sum estimated at $300 million to $400 million". 

So if you take the midpoint of $350 mio, and use the average multiple of 15, you get Bob Dylan's publishing making about $23 mio pa - on 600 songs - some massive.

Axl has 1/10th the number of songs - but Appetite/Lies are shared 5 ways - so looking at those numbers I can't imagine the publishing is worth more than a few mio per year, and looking at his lifestyle I'd imagine most of that goes just on day to day living. I'll add to this that from what I understand it required Axl, Slash & Duff to all sign off to license these songs to movies, games etc and apparently that wasn't happening too much, so the publishing would have been dampened.

 

So yeah I'd definitely say hurting for cash, which after calling Slash a cancer and saying NITL, comes the time to play compromise your integrity.

And just so happens Slash going through a costly divorce probably saw the $ signs as well.

Duff I'm not sure about, supposedly he was set up nicely from some early investments in Starbucks and Microsoft so who knows.

Either was this desperation for cash certainly paid a part in Adler and Izzy not being there. The reason Slash and Duff were is they were needed on board to sign off on the licensing mentioned above.

 

Managers - well I don't think Goldstein was a real manager, which is why I think he has clung to Axl knowing he'll never get another or a proper gig. Then they went through a list of big name managers who all came and went quickly. One of them managed the Crue during their most messed up period - seen it all, unphased by anything if the money is there. So I would guess here that it wasn't so much that he couldn't afford one as I think the bulk of payment comes in % commission - I think it was more why would any decent manager who can get a gig with a normal band that is actually doing something that they can earn their commission on - take up the job of such a volatile client who isn't doing anything ? Seems like a lot of headache for not much benefit. I guess that's the point you turn to your housekeeper.

 

New record - well per the point I've made a number of times in a recent thread. I don't think it has anything to do with laziness, but totally to do with capability.

 

 

Edited by Euchre
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@Euchre you made some solid points there.   I think back in 2005 Axl sold the publishing rights, or at least tried to sell them for $19 million to Sanctuary Music Group.  I don't know if the deal went thru, I believe there was a lawsuit from Slash and Duff as they were cut out of their publishing, I think in the end Axl ended up giving them their royalty checks.  This article states the 1st quarter 2005 total GNR royalty check was 92k...which annualized is roughly 400k.  Split that however many times and if you aren't doing anything else, that 100-200k isn't gonna give you that rockstar life.  I wonder if that Sanctuary deal ever went through in the end, but you don't attempt it if you are flush with cash...

There is more to a new record that meets the eye.  They have released old stuff recently, but I feel like there are some ownership battles over the ChiDem material, and I wonder if GNR/Axl is still under a record deal and he kinda has to release the Chi Dam stuff to satisfy the deal before he can release new new stuff made since 2016 with Slash and Duff.  Maybe Axl doesn't want to release those songs, and they have a record with new songs or hybrid of chi dem and new songs, but the record company won't get their cut on new songs so they won't let the record out.  Something is going on behind the scenes and I don't think its Axl being lazy or a perfectionist.  If the record company forces the next records to be ChiDem 2 and ChiDem 3 and its not a Slash/old GNR type bluesy rock record, I don't think the public will have an appetite for it.  They didn't in 2008.  I wish we knew the real reason, but if they are in litigation with the record company, #1 rule is to keep your mouth shut, let the lawyers do the talking.  

Slash I doubt was financially struggling, he has constant cash flow from licensing deals all over the place plus writing/performing royalties coming in from tons of artists he has worked with over the decades.  Yea his divorce was a big number, but you don't get to that number unless you have big numbers to split, I am sure slash was fine even without the reunion.  Now, he filed for divorce back around 2009, when his first solo record came out, so they have been rocky for years.  Knowing that, of course he isn't gonna sign the GNR deal until the divorce is in motion or it can be excluded.  Even if he had plenty of money, that would've been a rookie mistake.

I saw an interview with duff after VR was done, and he basically said that he still needed to work, he wasn't just a loaded rockstar.  Yea he has some investments, but I doubt he had millions in the bank.  I think Axl/Slash/Duff are all flush with cash now though.

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Hey Liva, that's all very interesting - thanks for sharing.

I took a look at what we know was going with the band/Axl around those times. Of course, any given date is somewhat incidental, as there's a larger economical framework to consider. Axl obviously took the mental steps to re-mortgage his house (again & again) before the official paperwork was shuffled around. But they should contextualize it some.


- 3/1/2002 - $2,000,000

After the New Years shows in Vegas, about six months before their big tentative comeback with a ClearChannel sponsored tour.


- 6/5/2003 - $2,400,000

About six months (to the day!) after the CC tour imploded in the wake of a glorious MSG show.


- 9/29/2005 - $3,510,000

This one came after Geffen/Interscope had cut funding (early 04) and the band had relocated from the Village to Curt Cuomo's studio.

Axl had also been just sued by S&D over the publishing rights of the back catalog (he had leased his share to Sanctuary Publishing in Jan '05 for 20 years, receiving about $1M per annum).


- 5/31/2006 - $4,320,000

On this day, Guns played in Budapest, Hungary. It was the third date of Axl's first major Euro-tour in over a decade. Costly ventures.

Also, this bodes well with rumors about Merck not having had enough money to promote the '06 tour properly. (His later statement, 'I found the money and the motivation to keep Axl and the band alive...' comes out a bit different now, eh?)

 

- 7/5/2006 - $500,000

On this day, Guns played in Helsinki, Finland. Good show, Ax. Either touring is costly, or maybe he had recent bills in Sweden (biting a hotel security guard :) ).


- 2/23/2007 - $5,525,000
 
Remember that Del James update that CD has been recorded and the band is currently mixing it? It was posted on the GNR website on the preceding day (Feb 22nd).

 
- 4/23/2007 - $500,000

This one happened a few days before the rescheduled 2007 tour was announced, following Tommy's wrist injury. They had had dates lined up in Japan and ZA for April/May.

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Axl's repeated mortgages going back to 2002 suggest, for one, that the label did not sponsor the (albumless) tours.  Meanwhile, he wanted a succession of grand stages & venues for his return. There's an obvious need hire a host of people & rent a truckload of gear. Or two.

"Every manager comes in and wants me to make things smaller," says Rose. Guns N' Roses, for example, requires twice as many tour trucks as the budget calls for, he says. Why no one else can understand the band's needs is an obvious frustration for Rose." - 2012 LA Times

See, Axl wants to tour BIG. No point leaving the house (in the care of the bank) otherwise. Add in his reknown timekeeping, and you'll have him on a red-eye flight straight into a riot instead of a show. Being his tour manager must be hilarious.  


Axl well and truly missed the boat to game the system: he could've put out three albums between '99-'07, tour the lot of them, and milk the market pre-financial crisis. Arguably, the sales would've dropped somewhat on each successive album, while the sound could've progressed from classic rock with synthethic layers to a funkier rhythm and more avant-garde effects. But it would've been his art, his way.

When the album did come out in 2008, the revenue streams had already shifted to touring. Enter Irving Azoff, the BestBuy dealbroker. They had a ball together - one month, Axl fired and hired him 3 times. As well as managing Axl, Azoff was the head of Front Line Management, which had been bought by Ticketmaster in '08. To say that Azoff had vested interests in getting Axl to tour was an understatement.

"Rose claims that through Azoff's control of the "trifecta" of artist management, concert and touring promotion, and ticket sales, Azoff has been able to gain wide influence and power in the music industry. Azoff allegedly decides what artists he wants to promote through favorable touring deals and uses his power to punish artists and harm their careers if they don't follow his orders." - Axl's lawsuit on Azoff


'All these managers, they all believe in one thing: sell a reunion tour and get their commission. It's just a phone call. It's a half a day's ... work, or however long they want to keep the bidding war going. They get their commission and they don't care if it falls on its face.'

"We decided, 'No more managers,'" said [Beta] Lebeis a few days after the Seattle concert. "Between me and Fernando and my daughter, we're dealing with the management." Lebeis added that she characterizes Rose as "more than a son to me," and that after [Peter] Katsis' departure, "I told (Rose) if he hires another manager, I quit." - 2012 LA Times


When Axl says there are cutthroat managers out there willing to cash in as the ones who secure a NITL-level tour, he's not kidding. It's big money for them and the artist is fairly inconsequential in that equation.

Axl is on legal record to say Azoff went on, 'breaking the current lineup'. In other words, Axl thinks Azoff pushed Robin out, in hopes of bringing Slash back. In March '09, they both settled for DJ as the quasi-Slash. Wonder if the top-hat was Irving's idea. Would've gone swell with the Guns/Van Halen tour.

"In 2009, Azoff repeatedly advised the band that he had arranged a stadium concert tour with [Van Halen, another Azoff client]... Rose began planning and preparing for the tour. Relying on the manager's representations, Rose obtained advances and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on tour arrangements, planning and budget, marketing, rehearsals, hiring personnel, and other out-of-pocket expenses."

The above sounds like another re-mortgage, as you folks have speculated.


"Guns N' Roses was also planning to do a summer European tour before the Van Halen stadium tour... However, [Azoff] told Rose not to go forward with the summer European tour because they were afraid that Guns N' Roses would not return in time for the Van Halen stadium tour. So the band decided to forego the European tour... resulting in substantial losses."

Despite Azoff apparently being such a torrent of negativity and falsehood, Axl kept him on until Oct 23rd, 2009 - and you know what? Irving resigned, he wasn't fired. He booked the Asian dates in 2009, including back-to-back shows at the Tokyo Dome.

"This decision was made so that the promoter would earn more money on the concerts. The band lost $1.3 million as a result of the last-minute cancellation."

Then again, the one show Axl did play at the Dome (Dec 19) set a new record as the longest show in Guns' history.

Axl's motivated by money, alright, by the idea of burning through it.

 

Edited by denin
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On 1/31/2021 at 11:09 PM, Nice Boy said:

People saying "money" and insinuating it is simply down to greed, that's not a clever answer, too simplistic. If his only motivation was greed he wouldn't have spent most of the UYI tour only breaking even. 

I would speculate a lot of his post CD touring was necessary to cover huge debts for studio time etc. On that Kimmel interview he half joked about not making any money. I would also guess that he has since continued to tour to accumulate a retirement fund and just maybe because he's actually enjoying it.

There's a good chance Axl thought he was making loads of money on those 1991-1992 of the UYI tour, and even though he was burning it quicker than he could make it management were too scared to let him know. There's a reason they went out stripped down in 1993. They obviously looked at the their accounts and though "what happened??". Axls causing late fees and the excessive spending on backstage parties definitely pissed of Duff and Slash... even if they enjoyed spit-roasting at the time.

I don't think it's much of a secret that Axl and co went out on tour in 2006 to pay for the recording sessions. 

I don't think it was all about the money, but I think the irreconcilable differences got ironed out a lot easier because of it. Had Axl and Slash both been financially sorted with great comfort there would not have been an incentive to get together. I think they did iron on their differences though, so it's not just a cash grab, like The Eagles or some other band that actively avoid each other at all costs. 

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Maybe he just enjoys it more now hes seems more calmer aswell 

 

also heard the reason for the renuion was slash was skint as his ex wife took him for millions think she got half of his fortune 

 

but then again noone really knows why 

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I am not sure I buy that Slash was broke after the divorce, he was the one who filed it so I am sure he knew what he was getting into and also did some pre-planning.  They bought their Sherman Oaks house in 2009 for 7.3 million and sold it in November 2017 for 8.7m, that's a 1.4m profit which after the 100k real estate taxes per year, holding costs on the house and the 4.4m mortgage they took out, they probably broke even and ended up with 3 million in cold hard cash after that sale.  The divorce was filed around Christmas 2014 and wasn't finalized until late 2018/2019 I believe.  Perla got a lump sum of 6.6m and 100k per month for life unless she remarries, she is 45 yrs old, that is 1.2m a year and she will probably live another 40 years, so yes that is a chunk of change over 40 years.  In addition she gets child support of 39k per month, usually ends when the kids turn 18, which I think they are close if not over the age.  Now lets say she got HALF...do the math, that doesn't exactly leave the other half (slash) hurting for money.  I still think all said and done, Slash has the most money out of all the members, he has endorsed so many things from Guitar Hero, Gibson guitar lines, Marshall amps, his likeness on merch, appearances everywhere, interviews all the time before the reunion.  Like it or not, SLASH is a brand, gotta give a guitarist that doesn't sing or speak very much a lot of credit for that accomplishment.

I would venture to guess SMKC was almost a break even for Slash, MAYBE took home a few hundred thousand a year, if that.  I think that whole venture was because Slash loved writing, playing live and touring, and he has always had plenty of money to be able to be creative and active the way he wants.  Since the divorce was finalized 2-3 year AFTER the reunion, I don't see how the two connect to be honest.  

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2 minutes ago, Liva said:

I am not sure I buy that Slash was broke after the divorce.

Maybe not broke for our standards of living. Maybe not broke for Slash standard in 2014...

But for a deal that lasts for his entire life, 100k a month it's a lot of money from when Slash is just touring alone.

 

When he now has to basically finance his arts and records... If you think that he used to brag to record only on tape and now says that record his albuns in Pro Tools in his home studio.

Maybe he's not broke now or even then... But he knows that startin a month with -100k is something he has to think and look seriously when the time comes and he's not able tontour and record as he would like to do.

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2 hours ago, Beto 22 said:

Maybe not broke for our standards of living. Maybe not broke for Slash standard in 2014...

But for a deal that lasts for his entire life, 100k a month it's a lot of money from when Slash is just touring alone.

 

When he now has to basically finance his arts and records... If you think that he used to brag to record only on tape and now says that record his albuns in Pro Tools in his home studio.

Maybe he's not broke now or even then... But he knows that startin a month with -100k is something he has to think and look seriously when the time comes and he's not able tontour and record as he would like to do.

 

He wouldn't sign that deal if he couldn't afford it, he signed it in 2018/2019.  Perla's lawyers claimed Slash made 45 million in 2017 alone, if that is true or not, I have no idea, but that is just 1 out of the 4 years this tour trucked on.  If anyone was so inclined I am sure they can look up court records to see filings and what was alleged as this is usually public record, don't know if final settlements are under seal though.  

He has recorded 1 album on Pro Tools which I think I remember him saying, to paraphrase, it wasn't his first choice but they got good results and he seemed ok with it.  Livin The Dream was released on September 21, 2018.  Look at his touring schedule, he was on the road non stop from June 2016 - Dec 2018.  His breaks were

  • 8/23/16 - 10/26/16: 2 months
  • 1/20/16 - 1/20/17: 2 months
  • 3/3/17 - 5/26/17: just under 3 months, last show in Dubai, return show in Ireland
  • 9/9/17 - 9/22/17: 13 days
  • 11/30/17 - 6/2/18: 6 months 
  • 7/25/18 - 11/2/18: Album released during this period

I would venture to guess that recording to tape takes longer, requires all instrument members be present as its recording more "live", lots of run thru's and re-recording etc.  Given his hectic schedule, I would think the ONLY way he could release it is if they did it via pro tools where members could record at different times and do stuff while Slash is on the road with GNR, Slash comes home, lays his stuff down, goes back out.  There were 12 songs on this record vs 17 on the previous one, 15 on Apocalyptic Love etc.  To say in 2017/2018 whenever he got a chance to record the album that it went the Pro Tools route due to money, while money was pouring in, and not due to time constraints would be a stretch.  

 

 

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if you really take a step back, it is relatively easy to see how this all happened.  Slash and Duff would go back to GNR at anytime, they were just waiting for the call from Axl.  Slash and Duff are playing solo stuff, but their crowd goes nuts when SMKC plays a GNR song and Slash knows that, so why not play it together with the guys you created it with.  

Axl tried to go his own route, it didn't work out as planned and he had no next move. No one to finance endless Axl only GNR tours and no record, his vision ran its course without more financial backing, it was over.  Axl called Slash and Duff, they came back, im sure a little nervous but wheels are in motion.  They got a big nut to do Coachella and Vegas, once they realized they could make a killing and they were getting along, they let it rip.  Tour for years, now they are all loaded.

Slash and Duff wanted back in.  Axl needed them to make money.  Here we are now.

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3 hours ago, Liva said:

and 100k per month for life unless she remarries, she is 45 yrs old, that is 1.2m a year and she will probably live another 40 years, so yes that is a chunk of change over 40 years.  In addition she gets child support of 39k per month

If he really agreed to that, he's a fucking fool. Usually alimony is connected to the actual income.

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2 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said:

If he really agreed to that, he's a fucking fool. Usually alimony is connected to the actual income.

In the USA, Alimony is usually a combination of income, assets and keeping the wife in a similar living situation that she has been accustomed to.  These are news reports on that number, it could be tied to a number of things, for instance if GNR goes away, it could go down to say 20k a month or a number of things might be tied to that 100k number.  If her lawyer was going for 250k a month and his income would've gotten her that legally, then agreeing to 100k is a deal for him.   Gotta put it in perspective.  And we don't know, what we don't know.

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Same reason George Carlin did back in the day he needed the money. Axl's got a bunch of yes men around him. There was an article he had a property in Vancouver and he never bothered to ever live there. 

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