GN'R, Great White, and the "Once Bitten, Twice Shy" cover

[Blackstar]

As we all know, Alan Niven was also managing Great White besides Guns N' Roses (actually Great White was Niven's "main" band, as he had been already managing them when became GN'R's manager, and he also had writing credits with them). Great White were relatively successful in the late 80s and their biggest hit was a cover, "Once Bitten, Twice Shy," originally by Ian Hunter (guitar, arrangement and production by Mick Ronson - they both were in Mott The Hoople).

According to an article from back in the day (May 1990) written by Arlett Vereecke (GN'R's publicist), which quoted Mick Ronson, GN'R were going to cover the song, but then Niven wanted to give it to Great White:

GREAT WHITE scored big last year with the remake of MOTT THE HOOPLE tune "Once Bitten, Twice Shy,” written by IAN HUNTER and MICK RONSON, who explained to the British press how he felt about Great White’s version and how it came about. ”I don’t like their version at all,” he said candidly. "The singer’s up for a Grammy. Talk about adding insult to injury... It appears we have GUNS N’ ROSES to thank for Great White’s big break. They have the same management. Guns N’ Roses said they were gonna do the song, had a meeting with the manager, and the manager really wanted Great White to do it ’cause they didn't have a hit single on their album. This is Axl Rose’s story. It would have been nice if it had gone on their record. There’s just something vital about GNR, especially the guitar player (Slash), and they’re really nice people, too.” Guess we shouldn’t ask how he felt about Great White’s bar-attitude music, huh?!

And speaking of GNR’s manager... Besides managing GNR and GREAT WHITE, he also manages HAVANNA BLACK, a Finnish rock band with little future. And since he does manage GNR, what better way to use them for his own benefit? Knowing DUFF McKAGAN had arranged a birthday bash at a certain restaurant in Hollywood, he scheduled a press get-together for Havanna Black at the same time. So, whoever didn’t want to see Havanna Black still showed up to see some GNR action.

https://www.a-4-d.com/t4376-1990-05-dd-blast-guns-n-roses-update           

Jack Russell of Great White said later (2017) in an interview that he had first heard the song from Izzy:   

Jack Russell: As far as “Once Bitten…Twice Shy,” I’m alright with it of course. That’s become a signature song. I’m okay with it selling three million records! It’s good song and I felt we made a great song. We got a Grammy nomination out of it. Honestly. I never thought the song was going to be a hit. That song broke all the rules. It takes forever to get to the chorus. For some reason, that song just would just keep going [laughs]! That song just wouldn’t stop going [laughs]!

Sleaze Roxx: Earlier, we talked about the previous covers. Where you fan of this song before you recorded it?

Jack Russell: I honestly hadn’t heard the song it before. It was Izzy Stradlin that played me the song for the first time.

http://sleazeroxx.com/interviews/jack-russell-interview-2/

Alan Niven replied to Jack Russell's comments saying that it was all lies and crediting himself for finding the song (he credited Izzy only for coming up with the title of the Great White album and didn't mention anything about GN'R):   

Sleaze Roxx: Then you followed things up with ‘…Twice Shy’ which tied everything together from the album covers and music videos. The cover of “Once Bitten…Twice Shy” was brilliant. That was your doing, if I recall. When I spoke to Jack, he mentioned that he wasn’t familiar with Mott The Hoople.

Alan Niven: That was me. What Jack said was a bunch of bullshit! Like what he said about Tesla, that was a lie too! While we were on the Judas Priest tour, our sound man had worked with Ian Hunter. We were sitting in the lounge one day before a show and he said, “You have got to hear this song.” The song he played me was “Once Bitten…Twice Shy.” I said, “That’s a pretty funky performance but that’s a really interesting and entertaining song.”

Around the time that we were naming the first album, ideas kept floating around and it was at that point, Izzy [Stradlin] brought up ‘Once Bitten’ after the Ian Hunter song “Once Bitten…Twice Shy.” So I was thinking ahead, if we name this one ‘Once Bitten…’ and the next one ‘…Twice Shy’ and maybe we’ll just knock this track out. The irony Ruben, of doing this song is that we stuck it on the end of the album. It wasn’t designed to become a ‘hit.’ I never thought of my band of having hits per say. I always considered them a road band. When we released that song, I assumed we’d get 10-12 weeks of AOR radio and then we’ll move on to the next; possibly something like “Mista Bone.” The thing took on a life of its own.                                                                                 

https://sleazeroxx.com/interviews/interview-with-former-great-white-and-guns-n-roses-manager-alan-niven/

In a more recent interview (2020), Niven gave a slightly different version in regards to the part about who came up with the album name:

Sleaze Roxx: Jack Russell’s Great White have just released an acoustic album where he and his band revisit ‘Once Bitten’ in acoustic form. I’ve spoken to Jack and he’s mentioned that he had no idea there was a song titled “Once Bitten, Twice Shy.” He mentioned that it was Izzy Stradlin that introduced him to the Ian Hunter tune. Who suggested the title in ’87 and was the master plan to follow up that album with the next album to be titled ‘…Twice Shy?’

Alan Niven: I picked all the covers. Did quite well at that I think. Having “Once Bitten, Twice Shy” in my back pocket and calling the first two Capitol albums ‘Once Bitten’ and ‘… Twice Shy’ might even be thought of as nifty thinking. The first time I heard the song was when I played it on my radio show on WINZ Zeta 4 in Miami. Our sound man on the ’84 [Judas] Priest tour had worked with Ian Hunter and he played me a live version during that tour. When discussing with Capitol a name for the first release on the label, ‘Once Bitten’ came up and that lit a light bulb in my head. I played the Great White version for Iz, because I wanted to see how he felt about the feel of the track. It worked for him. I had a trust in Izzy’s opinions. Anyways, that was Izzy’s involvement. Jack’s memory is slightly off.

https://sleazeroxx.com/interviews/interview-with-former-great-white-and-guns-n-roses-manager-alan-niven-2/

And there's a new interview with Mark Kendall of Great White, who more or less says the same as Jack Russell (that the Ian Hunter song was introduced to them by Izzy):

Mark Kendall: Our manager (Alan Niven) managed Guns N’ Roses, and we had an album called “Once Bitten,” and so we felt like the obvious follow up would be “…Twice Shy,” and Izzy Stradlin, who played guitar in Guns N’ Roses, came to our manager with that Ian Hunter track. I had never heard it before. I knew a little bit about and heard Mott the Hoople, but I’d never heard Ian Hunter, any of his solo work.

But anyways, Izzy Stradlin brought that song in and he goes, “This would be cool for you guys to do because you have the album ‘Once Bitten’ and then you have ‘…Twice Shy.’ He presented it to our manager. We didn’t hear it. Our manager really liked the lyrics and everything, so he presented it to us and we thought it was OK, we liked it. We just kind of put our own twist on it.

https://www.al.com/life/2021/03/great-white-guitarist-talks-once-bitten-twice-shy-eddie-van-halen-guns-n-roses.html

*

Whatever the truth is, one thing is certain: Ian Hunter and Mick Ronson weren't happy at all with Great White's cover. Mick Ronson was vocal about it in the Blast Magazine quote above and in other interviews, and so was Ian Hunter:

Last autumn, the imminent Hunter- Ronson revival got an unexpected shot in the arm from Great White's limp cover of their 'Once Bitten Twice Shy'. It took a lousy cover of a great song to hit the US Top Five, while the original was never actually released as a single in the States. And the irony doesn't end there...

Ronson: 'When we were playing our way around the Southern states people were asking us if we were a cover band - they thought 'Once Bitten' was a Great White song. It was even worse when Barry Manilow had the hit with 'Ships' then it was, F***, what the hell's he doing that for? ' [Sounds Magazine, March 1990]

[Ian] Hunter is not so sanguine about Great White's hit version of Once Bitten Twice Shy." "It was a bit anemic," he says. "Actually, Slash found the song and wanted it for Guns N' Roses. But Guns N' Roses had the same manager as Great White and he persuaded Axl [Rose] to let Great White do it."

To Hunter's artistic and financial sorrow. "At the end of the day you're talking money," he says. "If Guns N' Roses had played it, it would have been on an album that sold 7.1 million copies, compared to Great White's, which sold about 2.9 million." [The Morning Call, October 20, 2001]

*

Axl and Slash had jammed with Ian Hunter and Mick Ronson at their show at the Palace in L.A. on December 13, 1989 (they joined them for a live version of Velvet Underground's White Light, White Heat). And Mick Ronson daugther has talked about meeting Axl with her father after Axl's request:

http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/222230-mick-ronsons-daughter-about-meeting-axl-with-her-dad/

Edited March 17, 2021 by Blackstar

[Draguns]

Wow! I never knew that it was a cover song. I thought Great White had composed it. I like Great White due to that song and Rock Me.  Additionally, I didn't know that GNR was going to cover it. I think it would have sounded even better!

[lame ass security]

9 minutes ago, Draguns said:

Wow! I never knew that it was a cover song. I thought Great White had composed it. I like Great White due to that song and Rock Me.  Additionally, I didn't know that GNR was going to cover it. I think it would have sounded even better!

Damn, neither did I. And I really like Ian Hunter and Mick Ronson.

[Blackstar]

Update:  Alan Niven has responded to Mark Kendall's comments, saying, again, that it's all lies (he also goes off on Ian Hunter for not liking Great White's version of his song):

Edited March 17, 2021 by Blackstar

[Sisyphus]

Niven comes off as such a gigantic prick to me. Good riddance.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Sisyphus

[Ratam]

Niven love the controversy and fight with everyone. Isn't weird how him and Axl has been such confrontation relationship. 

[chinese stew]

Everybody knows it was Chris Pitman's idea.

[scottish nutter]

6 hours ago, Sisyphus said:

Niven comes off as such a gigantic prick to me. Good riddance.

he certainly does

[MaskingApathy]

Yeah he's definitely got a big ego, otherwise he wouldn't have written that long response 

[Ratam]

1 hour ago, MaskingApathy said:

Yeah he's definitely got a big ego, otherwise he wouldn't have written that long response 

Yes, looong like Axl's letter to HOF.....

[Ixtlan]

10 hours ago, Sisyphus said:

Niven comes off as such a gigantic prick to me. Good riddance.

100% agree.

[Euchre]

On 3/17/2021 at 4:57 PM, Sisyphus said:

Niven comes off as such a gigantic prick to me. Good riddance.

Niven could be a total prick at times which is why he was so beneficial to GN’R - he was no yes man - so I’m not so sure about the ‘good riddance’ bit.

Under his management GNR went from an unheard of band to the biggest band in the world In no time and saw 4 separate releases in 5 years. Since his departure the band basically disintegrated and has managed 1 OG release with 1 OG member in 30 years.

 

Niven was both vital and under appreciated due to revisionist history as he wasn’t a yes man to the person who controls the legacy.

[EricBismarck]

The liner notes of Twice Shy...  specifically thanks Izzy

It says the following :

Quote

SLASH FOR THE SUNBURST; IZZ FOR O.B.T.S.;

Here is a link to a photo of it on discogs

 

[Sisyphus]

On 3/20/2021 at 2:59 PM, Euchre said:

Niven could be a total prick at times which is why he was so beneficial to GN’R - he was no yes man - so I’m not so sure about the ‘good riddance’ bit.

Under his management GNR went from an unheard of band to the biggest band in the world In no time and saw 4 separate releases in 5 years. Since his departure the band basically disintegrated and has managed 1 OG release with 1 OG member in 30 years.

 

Niven was both vital and under appreciated due to revisionist history as he wasn’t a yes man to the person who controls the legacy.

I don't see it that way. They were a young and hungry band. I honestly don't think the number of releases had much to do with him. If anything he's been taking credit for the events he had no pivotal role in. The disintegration was due to money (too much of it), ego and lack of direction. I don't think Niven or anyone else could have prevented that. That's just my feeling.

He's resentful and bitter ever since he was booted. He can't let go off the fact Axl didn't want to work with him anymore so he's just badmouthing him any chance he gets while glorifying Izzy to death for obvious reasons. He's taking all kind of personal shots at Axl too. It's just politics.

He's obnoxious, sour, disgruntled, sad old man who's been mooching off his GN'R connection ever since he got canned.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Sisyphus

[Euchre]

15 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

I don't see it that way. They were a young and hungry band. I honestly don't think the number of releases had much to do with him.

He's resentful and bitter ever since he was booted. He can't let go off the fact Axl didn't want to work with him anymore so he's just badmouthing him any chance he gets while glorifying Izzy to death for obvious reasons.

On the first point I'd suggest the evidence suggests otherwise. GNR were screwing up big time, Geffen, Zutaut specifically, called in Niven to sort things out. He conceived LLAS, and suddenly their first release it out. Appetite got delivered under his watch, Jungle and the Ritz only happened due to his GW connections - he was also heavy in the concept of the Jungle video. Without him the Aerosmith tour doesn't happen which is pivotal for the band. Lies also comes out. UYI did take a long time I'll give you that, but during that time he did strategise to push the albums back and go out on tour to force Geffen to the re-negotiating table, which was a great commerical result for GNR. He left just shy of the UYI release (with incidently most of TSI in the can). Since then 30 years goes by and 1 album of original material with one original member. One thing Niven certianly had was he represented all 5 members - no 1 member got priority and he was no "yes man" to Axl. I certainly agree that once Axl got control implosion of the band was inevitable, but I don't believe Axl would have been able to get control if Niven was still there. TBH the only area I can fault Niven, is he didn't handle the Steven situation better - losing Steven was really the beginning of the implosion in my mind, the first domino, and I wonder if something could have been done differently.

 

Regarding the bitterness, there I totally agree with you. However for different reasons. I don't think Niven lives off GN'R, he talks just as much about GW and I've heard him talk about his involvement with the Pistols and early Motley a lot as well. I think he is proud of all the bands he was involved with. I think the reason he is bitter wrt GNR and particularly Axl is for monetary reasons. He signed away future royalties he was owed for a lump sum payout and this was because he didn't want to deal with Axl anymore. I think this was a serious mis-calcualtion as it was based off certified sales of albums that were much lower even at the time than reality. He probably collected a few mio in payout, even though he had done the work according to his contract that would have entitled him to 5-10x that much. I think he screwed up majorly in that regard and only realised what an error that was later and regretted it, leading to the bitterness. I'm sure it hurts for him as well if my assessment is correct in that he was so important to the success but has basically been written out of it.

 

[Lies They Tell]

Listened to this song for the first time now. The Great White version is absolutely terrible. The original version on the other hand is great! I'd love to  hear what the GnR version would have sounded like.

[RedHook]

It made sense for Great White at the time because the bands previous hit album was called Once Bitten