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3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

But I also think that "talented" goes beyond just being good at releasing music.

I accept I phrased that part badly - I more meant he isn't this musical genius, prolific talent that people seem to have him up on a pedestal over and then have to turn themselves in knots trying to explain why he can't output anything of note and is now basically reduced to appearing in cartoons - and hence their constant disappointment. Accept he is not that and everything makes sense and the disappointment goes away.

My point is the only time he has delivered anything worthwhile was in a 5 year period with Slash, Steve, Izzy and Duff around. They bought out the best in him and in each other. Axl tried it before and has tried it after and went nowhere. That's not going to change.

Hence, my surprise that people are still surprised or even expecting anything. Far from being the musical genius of GNR, he was more the guy heavily dependent on the others. And all of the output both before and after GNR points to this. Look at it through this lens, which is a much simpler explanation that fits the facts.

 

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43 minutes ago, Euchre said:

I totally agree that for a few years there (when he had the others around him) he was great.

What I'm getting at is there is this perception that he is some sort of incredible talent and to keep this perpetuated people come up with ever more complicated and convoluted narratives to try and explain what he has basically managed to do jack shit in the last 30 years. Basically thinking there is some twisted, genius master plan and this next epic is just around the corner.

Occam's razor would suggest a far more simpler explanation is the correct one. That simpler one is that he just isn't capable and that is why we've seen nothing.

Aaaaah yes okay I get what you're saying. Especially on the narrative point! I've long felt something similar there! I think time and lack of output has almost completely put that to bed now though. When I was a youngster I used to go on Jarmo's site quite a lot and that 'evil genius behind the curtain with the devillish master plan to end all plans' vibe certainly existed there. 

Capability is an interesting point. I think the problem there is less about his perceived talent by fans and possibly more about his own belief in that talent. Purely speculative of course but 1 album in almost 30 years certainly suggests there is a problem there at the very least.

 

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He is not an artist/ musician like Springsteen or Hendrix or Nick Cave to name a few. Put any of these cats on a stage with only their instrument and let them do their thing, you won't need anything or anybody else.

Axl is more like Jim Morrison or Jagger, these guys need their musical partners/ bands and can't really do it all by themselves.

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1 minute ago, janrichmond said:

Axl had an amazing singing talent but he also had big issues. He wasted so much time that he'll never get back.

He's a frustrating guy and the leaks indicate to me that he is afterall sitting on a bunch of promising material too. It would be bad enough if things had simply ended in the 90s but there's still potential I mean look at AXL/DC.

Axl's turning 60 soon he'll probably be dead within the next 15years.

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2 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Axl's turning 60 soon he'll probably be dead within the next 15years.

Which is also he length of time it takes for him to record and release an album! Personally, I think he will manage to squeeze out some kind or product before he retires. In what format or under whichever banner is open to question right enough. But we are getting close to the final curtain call soon like. The past few years have proven that.

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14 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Axl's turning 60 soon he'll probably be dead within the next 15years.

That kind of puts in in perspective - 1 album between ages 30 & 60 and counting...... nothing can undo that now.

If he is the musical genius some people suggest, that is failure of the most epic proportions.

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8 minutes ago, 19AT5 said:

Which is also he length of time it takes for him to record and release an album! Personally, I think he will manage to squeeze out some kind or product before he retires. In what format or under whichever banner is open to question right enough. But we are getting close to the final curtain call soon like. The past few years have proven that.

 

2 minutes ago, Euchre said:

That kind of puts in in perspective - 1 album between ages 30 & 60 and counting...... nothing can undo that now.

If he is the musical genius some people suggest, that is failure of the most epic proportions.

I want to believe. But if they come down here with zilch? Fuck that shit. At that point I think posthumous releases are our best bet.

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15 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I would have to disagree. Axl's voice and his singing, especially in his prime, was fabulous. I am not just talking about his extreme range and ability to sing in different voices which made it a very versatile tool for different kinds of music, but especially his ability to add emotions to his singing which so nicely complemented Slash. You felt Axl meant every fucking word he sang. Or at least I did. I would also say he is a talented song writer, with songs like Estranged and November Rain. Lastly, I think he was a unusually gifted frontman, at least back in the 80s and 90s. A lot of this came from being so sincere, unpredictable and unfettered his performances. Axl on stage in the 80s was a whirlwind of emotions and incredible mesmerizing. Of course, a lot of this is subjective and it is entirely okay to disagree.

I don't think anyone would claim Axl is a prolific musicians in terms of his output :lol: But I also think that "talented" goes beyond just being good at releasing music.

I agree with all your points. Saying Axl isn’t talented is silly. 

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16 hours ago, Euchre said:

My point is the only time he has delivered anything worthwhile was in a 5 year period with Slash, Steve, Izzy and Duff around.

Chinese is worthwhile, quality was never a problem I think. you kinda talk like the Slash era was the only good era which is just your opinion lol. 2001-2002, 2006-2010 plus a great album was a fun rollercoaster ride for me. I wish there was more of it but it was another exciting time to be a fan imo.

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16 hours ago, Euchre said:

I accept I phrased that part badly - I more meant he isn't this musical genius, prolific talent that people seem to have him up on a pedestal over and then have to turn themselves in knots trying to explain why he can't output anything of note and is now basically reduced to appearing in cartoons - and hence their constant disappointment. Accept he is not that and everything makes sense and the disappointment goes away.

My point is the only time he has delivered anything worthwhile was in a 5 year period with Slash, Steve, Izzy and Duff around. They bought out the best in him and in each other. Axl tried it before and has tried it after and went nowhere. That's not going to change.

Hence, my surprise that people are still surprised or even expecting anything. Far from being the musical genius of GNR, he was more the guy heavily dependent on the others. And all of the output both before and after GNR points to this. Look at it through this lens, which is a much simpler explanation that fits the facts.

 

This is ever slightly true in parts (complete BS for the rest though), Axl has always liked to collaborate and have writers around him (nothing wrong with this). Your suggestion that we think he's a prolific talent?? No idea how you arrived at that🤣 Nobody argues this, he is clearly not prolific. 

Is he a musical genius? what's the criteria Euchre? I'd say writing a song that 30yrs later people still scream out loud, or cry when they hear it live suggests he might just be a musical genius. His small output means nothing against his ability as a songwriter. 

You're clearly not a CD fan, your loss it's one of my favourite records, right beside the UYI records. But saying it's not worthwhile (your opinion) is just ridiculous. Exactly how is that measured? did it need to go platinum worldwide to be worthwhile. Nope, it's worthwhile because thousands love the songs, even if you and many others don't.

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Axl doesn't release a lot a material, but he IS a musical genius. Just look at the catalogue and see the number of great songs that he wrote. Rock anthems, epics, great lyrics, you name it. On top of that, he has his own unique vocal style that nobody can't really replicate. Besides being a great frontman.

 

But @Euchre says he's no talented, he definitely knows better. :shrugs:

Such a shame that GN'R wasn't fronted by Bon Jovi

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20 hours ago, rumandraisin said:

Says it all that Fortus has been in the band 19 years and the only released material written by him is the chorus for Better

Something particularly ripped from the Screaming Jets song Better

You know I'd know better

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10 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Is he a musical genius? what's the criteria Euchre? I'd say writing a song that 30yrs later people still scream out loud, or cry when they hear it live suggests he might just be a musical genius. His small output means nothing against his ability as a songwriter. 

You're clearly not a CD fan, your loss it's one of my favourite records, right beside the UYI records. But saying it's not worthwhile (your opinion) is just ridiculous. Exactly how is that measured? did it need to go platinum worldwide to be worthwhile. Nope, it's worthwhile because thousands love the songs, even if you and many others don't.

I actually provided a lot of factual evidence to support my position - most of what I have got back in return is opinions.

I'll summarise again briefly, Out of a 40 year career :

* Axl had a number of bands prior to GNR that got at best to demo stage but then went nowhere. Those bands included other members who were able to establish new platinum selling bands.

* Axl then had a brief 5 year period when he was with 4 other people in Slash, Steve, Izzy, Duff wrote and recorded 3 albums + 2 EP's (well Steve missed the recording of UYI, but was there for most of the writing). During this period they became the biggest band in the world.

* Post that period Axl has had the benefit of owning the name of the biggest band in the world, the benefit of the record contract that went along that band name, all the infrastructure (ie management, publicists etc) of that band around him and funding to the tune of being able to make the most expensive album ever made. On top of that he has had numerous players around him that have achieved great success in other bands. Some even managed a side project album during this time that went Number 1. And with all that he has managed to release 1 single album.

* Despite all the advantages and in particular the name, that single album didn't perform as well as the debut album from a completely new band that some of those other 4 created anew from scratch. Touring of this album took the band from large venues to relatively small ones by the end (sorry I don't know exact numbers). All the other 4 members have had numerous releases during that time. 

 

Is any of the above untrue ?

How do you interpret the above -

Well, my very original post on the matter is that from my perspective from reading various GNR forums over 20 years now, is that it seems to me that some people take the view that Axl was the supreme musical genius of GNR and every year they are surprised and disappointed that he hasn't dropped his latest piece of epic recordings on their lap. They then go into ever more convoluted and complicated explanations trying to explain why things haven't happened. I think there is a much more simpler one, which is he just isn't capable.

 

My point was that the lens I look through is that far from being the creative genius of the band I see it as Axl was the guy most dependent on the others. He knew full will that without them he would struggle to produce anything, which is part of the reason he needed control of the name so badly and why he has never done anything outside of the GNR name. In fact, so many people who he has been in bands with have struck out and released a lot of great stuff and in some cases where they desire it to great commercial success. So that 5 year period that set GNR up for life, was more about the other 4's abilities that about Axl's. That's what I believe, that's what I think the evidence above points to and that is why I'm never surprised nor disappointed when another year goes by without a GNR release. It's a simple explanation that fits the facts.

 

If anyone wants to put forward some factual evidence that doesn't fit with that narrative I'm happy to listen. But arguments that basically boil down to Axl is a genius because he's a genius, or he's a genius because I like him are just opinions and isn't going to change my view. The other counters that seem to have come back was he was great in '85-'91, are true but in my mind just prove my point how heavily dependent he was on the other 4.

 

Regarding CD, yes its my opinion that I don't like it - I tried to give it a chance a couple of times but think its really poor - but I accept that others love it. There are a lot of bands where I love albums that most fans think are amongst their weakest. I think it is demonstratable however that CD was underwhelming. It is basically equivalent to the MC94 album - I'm not going to detail all the parallels here as I really can't be bothered getting into that one, but I think it would be disingenuous to suggest that it delivered what GNR and Geffen or whoever ended up financing it thought it would.

 

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On 4/11/2021 at 12:45 PM, Euchre said:

I totally agree that for a few years there (when he had the others around him) he was great.

What I'm getting at is there is this perception that he is some sort of incredible talent and to keep this perpetuated people come up with ever more complicated and convoluted narratives to try and explain what he has basically managed to do jack shit in the last 30 years. Basically thinking there is some twisted, genius master plan and this next epic is just around the corner.

Occam's razor would suggest a far more simpler explanation is the correct one. That simpler one is that he just isn't capable and that is why we've seen nothing.

Too much like common sense for the fanboys.

He's solely written a small handful of great songs and been an important contributor to the more collaborative works in the GNR canon. but it feels like more of a fluke kind of talent. He may stumble upon an inspired moment every now and then, but he just isn't able to function as a prolific artist on any level whatsoever.  

And in terms of singing, he hasn't really been talented in that department in at least ten years now.

We're all hoping for a turn around, but actions speak louder than words.

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1 hour ago, Euchre said:

I actually provided a lot of factual evidence to support my position - most of what I have got back in return is opinions.

I'll summarise again briefly, Out of a 40 year career :

* Axl had a number of bands prior to GNR that got at best to demo stage but then went nowhere. Those bands included other members who were able to establish new platinum selling bands.

* Axl then had a brief 5 year period when he was with 4 other people in Slash, Steve, Izzy, Duff wrote and recorded 3 albums + 2 EP's (well Steve missed the recording of UYI, but was there for most of the writing). During this period they became the biggest band in the world.

* Post that period Axl has had the benefit of owning the name of the biggest band in the world, the benefit of the record contract that went along that band name, all the infrastructure (ie management, publicists etc) of that band around him and funding to the tune of being able to make the most expensive album ever made. On top of that he has had numerous players around him that have achieved great success in other bands. Some even managed a side project album during this time that went Number 1. And with all that he has managed to release 1 single album.

* Despite all the advantages and in particular the name, that single album didn't perform as well as the debut album from a completely new band that some of those other 4 created anew from scratch. Touring of this album took the band from large venues to relatively small ones by the end (sorry I don't know exact numbers). All the other 4 members have had numerous releases during that time. 

 

Is any of the above untrue ?

How do you interpret the above -

Well, my very original post on the matter is that from my perspective from reading various GNR forums over 20 years now, is that it seems to me that some people take the view that Axl was the supreme musical genius of GNR and every year they are surprised and disappointed that he hasn't dropped his latest piece of epic recordings on their lap. They then go into ever more convoluted and complicated explanations trying to explain why things haven't happened. I think there is a much more simpler one, which is he just isn't capable.

 

My point was that the lens I look through is that far from being the creative genius of the band I see it as Axl was the guy most dependent on the others. He knew full will that without them he would struggle to produce anything, which is part of the reason he needed control of the name so badly and why he has never done anything outside of the GNR name. In fact, so many people who he has been in bands with have struck out and released a lot of great stuff and in some cases where they desire it to great commercial success. So that 5 year period that set GNR up for life, was more about the other 4's abilities that about Axl's. That's what I believe, that's what I think the evidence above points to and that is why I'm never surprised nor disappointed when another year goes by without a GNR release. It's a simple explanation that fits the facts.

 

If anyone wants to put forward some factual evidence that doesn't fit with that narrative I'm happy to listen. But arguments that basically boil down to Axl is a genius because he's a genius, or he's a genius because I like him are just opinions and isn't going to change my view. The other counters that seem to have come back was he was great in '85-'91, are true but in my mind just prove my point how heavily dependent he was on the other 4.

 

Regarding CD, yes its my opinion that I don't like it - I tried to give it a chance a couple of times but think its really poor - but I accept that others love it. There are a lot of bands where I love albums that most fans think are amongst their weakest. I think it is demonstratable however that CD was underwhelming. It is basically equivalent to the MC94 album - I'm not going to detail all the parallels here as I really can't be bothered getting into that one, but I think it would be disingenuous to suggest that it delivered what GNR and Geffen or whoever ended up financing it thought it would.

 

I get what you're saying. Though I must confess I really like the MC94 album! Power To The Music is a banger!

1 hour ago, Towelie said:

Too much like common sense for the fanboys.

That should get a bite! Haha!

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11 minutes ago, 19AT5 said:

I get what you're saying. Though I must confess I really like the MC94 album! Power To The Music is a banger!

I love MC94 as well. I saw Crabby perform the whole album a couple of years back !

Even though it went Top 5 and some fans like myself absolutely love it, I can say objectively that it would be considered an underwhelming release (ie akin to CD.) For me to try and maintain anything different just because I like it so much would be delusional.

Anyway, I'm going to crank it up right now !!

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2 minutes ago, Euchre said:

I love MC94 as well. I saw Crabby perform the whole album a couple of years back !

Even though it went Top 5 and some fans like myself absolutely love it, I can say objectively that it would be considered an underwhelming release (ie akin to CD.) For me to try and maintain anything different just because I like it so much would be delusional.

Anyway, I'm going to crank it up right now !!

Ah nice! I'm not a huge Crue fan other than the greatest hits, but I really like that album. In fact, I quite often like those 'black sheep of the family' albums. Huge fan of Deep Purple's Come Taste The Band and RHCP's One Hot Minute albums for example. I guess there will be some people who prefer Chinese Democracy over every other GNR album? Possibly even somebody who doesn't like the original era of the band, but loves CD? These people clearly should be sectioned, but I'm sure they will exist! :P 

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2 hours ago, Euchre said:

I actually provided a lot of factual evidence to support my position - most of what I have got back in return is opinions.

I'll summarise again briefly, Out of a 40 year career :

* Axl had a number of bands prior to GNR that got at best to demo stage but then went nowhere. Those bands included other members who were able to establish new platinum selling bands.

* Axl then had a brief 5 year period when he was with 4 other people in Slash, Steve, Izzy, Duff wrote and recorded 3 albums + 2 EP's (well Steve missed the recording of UYI, but was there for most of the writing). During this period they became the biggest band in the world.

* Post that period Axl has had the benefit of owning the name of the biggest band in the world, the benefit of the record contract that went along that band name, all the infrastructure (ie management, publicists etc) of that band around him and funding to the tune of being able to make the most expensive album ever made. On top of that he has had numerous players around him that have achieved great success in other bands. Some even managed a side project album during this time that went Number 1. And with all that he has managed to release 1 single album.

* Despite all the advantages and in particular the name, that single album didn't perform as well as the debut album from a completely new band that some of those other 4 created anew from scratch. Touring of this album took the band from large venues to relatively small ones by the end (sorry I don't know exact numbers). All the other 4 members have had numerous releases during that time. 

 

Is any of the above untrue ?

How do you interpret the above -

Well, my very original post on the matter is that from my perspective from reading various GNR forums over 20 years now, is that it seems to me that some people take the view that Axl was the supreme musical genius of GNR and every year they are surprised and disappointed that he hasn't dropped his latest piece of epic recordings on their lap. They then go into ever more convoluted and complicated explanations trying to explain why things haven't happened. I think there is a much more simpler one, which is he just isn't capable.

 

My point was that the lens I look through is that far from being the creative genius of the band I see it as Axl was the guy most dependent on the others. He knew full will that without them he would struggle to produce anything, which is part of the reason he needed control of the name so badly and why he has never done anything outside of the GNR name. In fact, so many people who he has been in bands with have struck out and released a lot of great stuff and in some cases where they desire it to great commercial success. So that 5 year period that set GNR up for life, was more about the other 4's abilities that about Axl's. That's what I believe, that's what I think the evidence above points to and that is why I'm never surprised nor disappointed when another year goes by without a GNR release. It's a simple explanation that fits the facts.

 

If anyone wants to put forward some factual evidence that doesn't fit with that narrative I'm happy to listen. But arguments that basically boil down to Axl is a genius because he's a genius, or he's a genius because I like him are just opinions and isn't going to change my view. The other counters that seem to have come back was he was great in '85-'91, are true but in my mind just prove my point how heavily dependent he was on the other 4.

 

Regarding CD, yes its my opinion that I don't like it - I tried to give it a chance a couple of times but think its really poor - but I accept that others love it. There are a lot of bands where I love albums that most fans think are amongst their weakest. I think it is demonstratable however that CD was underwhelming. It is basically equivalent to the MC94 album - I'm not going to detail all the parallels here as I really can't be bothered getting into that one, but I think it would be disingenuous to suggest that it delivered what GNR and Geffen or whoever ended up financing it thought it would.

 

It would be disingenuous to say it didn't satisfy Axl who largely financed the record? Ha! He toured it extensively and talked as recently as 2016 about his love for it and how happy he was with the music. I think that's a fact. The album didn't sell as well as AFD or have the same impact... I mean, no shit! Who in their right mind would have had that expectation? Crazy. It's a good record, with good songs. It doesn't have to "Bury appetite" to live up to that. It's sales were underwhelming, but still far from a flop. Fact. 

He needed them. Yes true. They also needed him, and without his stage presence and voice that band would have not gone anywhere (not opinion fact). From that point he was the most valuable member... but they were all important, why you're trying to pitch one against the other is confusing tbh. 

He released one record without them. Nobody is defending that, he should have had minimum 2 albums released but he didn't. That doesn't mean he wasn't talented it just means he was either not confident in his ability or he was searching for a certain sound and approach that was exciting to him that was different. I can't say either thing as fact, but you also can't disprove it... There are also numerous musicians and producers who have all said the same thing about him "very talented... incredible" etc. no reason to lie or kiss as either. 

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On 4/12/2021 at 2:36 PM, Tom2112 said:

It would be disingenuous to say it didn't satisfy Axl who largely financed the record? Ha! He toured it extensively and talked as recently as 2016 about his love for it and how happy he was with the music. I think that's a fact. The album didn't sell as well as AFD or have the same impact... I mean, no shit! Who in their right mind would have had that expectation? Crazy. It's a good record, with good songs. It doesn't have to "Bury appetite" to live up to that. It's sales were underwhelming, but still far from a flop. Fact. 

He needed them. Yes true. They also needed him, and without his stage presence and voice that band would have not gone anywhere (not opinion fact). From that point he was the most valuable member... but they were all important, why you're trying to pitch one against the other is confusing tbh. 

He released one record without them. Nobody is defending that, he should have had minimum 2 albums released but he didn't. That doesn't mean he wasn't talented it just means he was either not confident in his ability or he was searching for a certain sound and approach that was exciting to him that was different. I can't say either thing as fact, but you also can't disprove it... There are also numerous musicians and producers who have all said the same thing about him "very talented... incredible" etc. no reason to lie or kiss as either. 

Axl is wildy talented. Being prolific means nothing when you have achieved what Axl and the others achieved. 

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On 4/12/2021 at 1:34 PM, 19AT5 said:

Ah nice! I'm not a huge Crue fan other than the greatest hits, but I really like that album. In fact, I quite often like those 'black sheep of the family' albums. Huge fan of Deep Purple's Come Taste The Band and RHCP's One Hot Minute albums for example. I guess there will be some people who prefer Chinese Democracy over every other GNR album? Possibly even somebody who doesn't like the original era of the band, but loves CD? These people clearly should be sectioned, but I'm sure they will exist! :P 

I wonder if there people who are only fans of Chinese Democracy. 

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