This does not seem like a band...

[Blackstar]

There were some important differences between making UYI and CD.

It is true that in the UYI era they were not a "collective" anymore (like they were in the AFD days). There was a hierarchy between partners and contracted members (Matt and later Gilby - edit: and Dizzy). Axl had control in the sense that nothing (like completing the albums) could be done if he didn't want to do it, but the band and the band business were still not run solely by him - they were run at least by both Axl and Slash - and there had to be agreements and compromises on things like the track listing or the mixes, etc. For example, Bill Price had to bring Axl and Slash in one room in order for them to agree about the mixes.

In the CD era, although sometimes Axl would listen to opinions (e.g. Robin Finck on including TIL) and worked more closely with some members than with some others, it seems that the members not only had no say on the decision making in regards to what would be on the album or what parts that they had written/recorded would be used, but also a lot of times they weren't even informed about that.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Blackstar

[Free Bird]

41 minutes ago, Beto 22 said:

Well if you read  any of the books Slash and Duff wrote that the chemistry off the stage wasn't even good at the time.

Duff didnt drank himself almost to death because he was too happy...

 

3 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

These videos are just a miniscule reflection of behind the scenes, It's well known that the band were fighting a lot due to Slash and Duff in the grips of addiction and Axl behaving like a spoilt child, causing riots etc

 

But they were a unit onstage, no matter how they felt personally. From an artistically standpoint it was an extremely successful tour and they delivered great live shows. I have no idea why this incarnation shouldn't be considered a band during the Illusions tour

[janrichmond]

2 minutes ago, Free Bird said:

But they were a unit onstage, no matter how they felt personally. From an artistically standpoint it was an extremely successful tour and they delivered great live shows. I have no idea why this incarnation shouldn't be considered a band during the Illusions tour

Yeah the shows were great and at the time we were not aware of the tensions off stage, we were in blissful ignorance.

 

[EvanG]

I always thought that despite the dysfunction, they still respected each other on a creative basis and it wasn't the ''Axl show'' that a lot of people like to think it was.

Even on a personal level I think there was still a connection. Duff talks in his book about Axl calling him on the phone and telling him not to go on tour to promote his solo record because it wasn't healthy (especially not in his state) to immediately go back on the road after the UYI tour. He wouldn't do that if he didn't care. And Axl was also one of the few people from GnR world who reached out after his pancreas exploded and went up to Seattle to hang out together and talk about the future of the band.

 

[Tom2112]

2 hours ago, Frankfurt93 said:

You obviously hadn't seen UYI line up videos off stage, have you?

ie, there is a lot more to the 'band' than making records, first and foremost chemistry between a group of people playing music whilst on and off stage

Period

 

#delusional

You can watch clips of the NITL band hanging out too... if they have MTV or whoever the access they gave back in the 90s it would be pretty similar. 

You guys continually move the goal posts. Anyway, by 1990 when Adler was fired the "band" was now fully a business, and chemistry was far from sight. Read the books, dies it sound like they were one for all in 1991? Certainly doesn't to me!

I loved your hashtags though😋

[Rovim]

1 hour ago, EvanG said:

I always thought that despite the dysfunction, they still respected each other on a creative basis and it wasn't the ''Axl show'' that a lot of people like to think it was.

Even on a personal level I think there was still a connection. Duff talks in his book about Axl calling him on the phone and telling him not to go on tour to promote his solo record because it wasn't healthy (especially not in his state) to immediately go back on the road after the UYI tour. He wouldn't do that if he didn't care. And Axl was also one of the few people from GnR world who reached out after his pancreas exploded and went up to Seattle to hang out together and talk about the future of the band.

 

also visited Steven in the hospital I'm pretty sure when he was fucked up or some shit. Axl said he went on tour mainly cause Slash wanted to tour in the UYI days. It wasn't just a business and I think the 3 of them care about one another today as well.

[Gnrcane]

On 5/6/2021 at 6:08 AM, The Black said:

They are a band of musicians, as they play music.

As Guns N' Roses, they are no longer artists, as they don't create music.

I guess you could argue they are performing artists since they do perform.

[Frankfurt93]

On 5/31/2021 at 6:23 PM, Tom2112 said:

You can watch clips of the NITL band hanging out too... if they have MTV or whoever the access they gave back in the 90s it would be pretty similar. 

You guys continually move the goal posts. Anyway, by 1990 when Adler was fired the "band" was now fully a business, and chemistry was far from sight. Read the books, dies it sound like they were one for all in 1991? Certainly doesn't to me!

I loved your hashtags though😋

you obviously missed out on the whole UYI tour when MTV followed the band around the globe and had a report from like every city they visited on that tour.

including the band Greece tour, all the backstage stuff, from the bus and the vans driving them to the concerts...

Don't know how to break it, but the books can't really bring you muc chemistry.  Just because you missed out on something doesn't mean it didn't happen that is why you fit the #delusional.

One has to be blind not to notice Slash/Duff/Gilby/Matt/Iz chemistry, why do you think Snakepit was Slash/Gilby/Matt, Outsiders were Matt/Duff and no, Adler did not have to do much with the rest of the band long before he was fired.  Check out real books.   You would know by now he was passed out most of the time.

He could not play Civil War from 85 takes, falling over drum kit, is that chemistry 

#delusional

 

[Frankfurt93]

On 5/31/2021 at 4:37 PM, janrichmond said:

These videos are just a miniscule reflection of behind the scenes, It's well known that the band were fighting a lot due to Slash and Duff in the grips of addiction and Axl behaving like a spoilt child, causing riots etc

 

The only fight that took place was Axl v the rest of the world and it took place from 1986 until like 2017.  But the band was still very tight, furthermore, on the top of the world I would say.

I really can't remember Slash and Duff fighting with Matt/Gilby/Dizzy/Izzy/horn section...

[WhazUp]

On 5/31/2021 at 7:53 AM, janrichmond said:

Yeah the shows were great and at the time we were not aware of the tensions off stage, we were in blissful ignorance.

 

That reminds me of what Steve Gorman said in his book about The Black Crowes where everyone could be at the point of near-fistfights backstage but then give the show of their lives right after it lol

[ericy210]

Isn’t this a tired discussion?  See the show if you want. Nobody is forcing you. 

[RussTCB]

On 6/2/2021 at 12:23 AM, WhazUp said:

That reminds me of what Steve Gorman said in his book about The Black Crowes where everyone could be at the point of near-fistfights backstage but then give the show of their lives right after it lol

That Gorman book changed my perception of some amazing Crowes shows I saw. It didn't make my memories of them bad, but it made me think about exactly what you mentioned. 

[Blackstar]

On 6/1/2021 at 9:07 PM, Frankfurt93 said:

The only fight that took place was Axl v the rest of the world and it took place from 1986 until like 2017.  But the band was still very tight, furthermore, on the top of the world I would say.

I really can't remember Slash and Duff fighting with Matt/Gilby/Dizzy/Izzy/horn section...

Can't remember from what? MTV videos?

[Frankfurt93]

On 6/5/2021 at 3:38 PM, Blackstar said:

Can't remember from what? MTV videos?

I see you missed out completely on the GNR 90's hype...

All the behind the scenes, live coverages...hell even making fucking videos triology.

Give you a hint, watch their 90's performances, look who played in Snakepit, Neurotic outsiders, on Gilby's/Duff's record...

That is called - chemistry.

[Underhardy]

4 minutes ago, Frankfurt93 said:

I see you missed out completely on the GNR 90's hype...

All the behind the scenes, live coverages...hell even making fucking videos triology.

Give you a hint, watch their 90's performances, look who played in Snakepit, Neurotic outsiders, on Gilby's/Duff's record...

That is called - chemistry.

Easy newbie

[Draguns]

12 minutes ago, Frankfurt93 said:

I see you missed out completely on the GNR 90's hype...

All the behind the scenes, live coverages...hell even making fucking videos triology.

Give you a hint, watch their 90's performances, look who played in Snakepit, Neurotic outsiders, on Gilby's/Duff's record...

That is called - chemistry.

FYI. Blackstar is probably one of the most knowledgeable GNR fans that I've ever met on a GNR message board. I thought I knew a lot about the history of the band. She knows a TON more. 

[Blackstar]

52 minutes ago, Frankfurt93 said:

I see you missed out completely on the GNR 90's hype...

All the behind the scenes, live coverages...hell even making fucking videos triology.

Give you a hint, watch their 90's performances, look who played in Snakepit, Neurotic outsiders, on Gilby's/Duff's record...

That is called - chemistry.

Alright, thanks for the hint for what to look and what to watch, as I haven't heard of all of this or watched those videos before  (I guess having transcribed them doesn't count )

[Sosso]

@Blackstaris a woman? 

[Blackstar]

3 minutes ago, Sosso said:

@Blackstaris a woman? 

Yes. It's under my avatar.

[SoulMonster]

That Guns N' Roses was on the constant verge of collapsing during it's heyday in the late 80s and early 90s was pretty obvious back in the day. The magazines loved writing about all the drama and was frequently predicting that the end of the band was near. From Axl's Mr. Brownstone speech, Steven's firing, rumours of Izzy's departure that was soon a reality, the escalating conflict between Slash and Axl which was also apparent onstage, rumours about Duff and Matt quitting, Axl distancing himself and taking over control of the band, are just examples of stuff that indicated a band that wasn't exactly harmonious and well-functioning. And of course now in hindsight, with newer interviews and biographies available, we know all more about this in greater detail. Yes, they still managed, for the most part, to give great concerts that weren't obviously reflecting the internal drama and conflicts in the band. Slash has also later implied that the intensity, angst and aggression of the live shows, which added to their greatness and made them such a spectacular thing to watch, were fueled by what the band members went through and their conflicts. In some ways, it is impressive they managed to stay together for as long as they did, but that was undoubtfully helped by copious amounts of coke and booze, huge revenue streams, and Axl staying away from the rest of them.

[jamillos]

I think it was the Axl's online chat where he said that the rift between him and Slash started as early as in 1988. 

[SoulMonster]

10 minutes ago, jamillos said:

I think it was the Axl's online chat where he said that the rift between him and Slash started as early as in 1988. 

Axl's comments on Slash in 2007-2009 were brutal and although he and Slash obviously had their differences from the very moment they started playing together in Hollywood Rose, I think he painted it a bit more black than it was in those chats and interviews. It really was a love/hate thing. That being said, yes, they had a tumultuous relationship from the very start and it got really bad up until 1990s (with Slash considering leaving the band after the failed stay in Chicago). To some extent they fixed this by taking a more professional stance to interacting with each other where they didn't have to be buddies, they just had to make it work professionally. So they rarely saw each other (even refusing to meet during the recording of UYIs, taking different hours in the recording studio) and keeping apart for the touring. with Axl rarely hanging out with the rest of the band and even making himself less available (they would have to go through his PAs etc to get to him). After the tour, when they needed to work more closely again for the new music, it fell apart. As so many have said, the strange thing wasn't that it fell apart in 1994-1996, but that it lasted that long. In 2007-2009 Axl was particularly scathing in his comments towards Slash while Slash had been trying to make peace with Axl (at least publicly). Axl was likely entirely fed up with the almost constant legal litigation with Slash and Duff and for Slash's cunning self-promotion in interviews and his biography. Axl was also probably under a lot of pressure at the time with CD finally being released.

[jamillos]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

Axl's comments on Slash in 2007-2009 were brutal and although he and Slash obviously had their differences from the very moment they started playing together in Hollywood Rose, I think he painted it a bit more black than it was in those chats and interviews. It really was a love/hate thing. That being said, yes, they had a tumultuous relationship from the very start and it got really bad up until 1990s (with Slash considering leaving the band after the failed stay in Chicago). To some extent they fixed this by taking a more professional stance to interacting with each other where they didn't have to be buddies, they just had to make it work professionally. So they rarely saw each other (even refusing to meet during the recording of UYIs, taking different hours in the recording studio) and keeping apart for the touring. with Axl rarely hanging out with the rest of the band and even making himself less available (they would have to go through his PAs etc to get to him). After the tour, when they needed to work more closely again for the new music, it fell apart. As so many have said, the strange thing wasn't that it fell apart in 1994-1996, but that it lasted that long. In 2007-2009 Axl was particularly scathing in his comments towards Slash while Slash had been trying to make peace with Axl (at least publicly). Axl was likely entirely fed up with the almost constant legal litigation with Slash and Duff and for Slash's cunning self-promotion in interviews and his biography. Axl was also probably under a lot of pressure at the time with CD finally being released.

Absolutely, Axl was still butthurt around the CD release time. I doubt he would stand by his words "Slash should've left after 88 or not have been in the band in the first place" if someone asked him today in privacy and he was being honest. However, this "1988" thing seems real in any case. They used to be close during the Appetite era, but then it went tits up, as you're saying. God knows how any new music from 95/96 would have sounded if they actually made it happen. Oh well, in this universe, they didn't. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by jamillos

[SoulMonster]

13 minutes ago, jamillos said:

Absolutely, Axl was still butthurt around the CD release time. I doubt he would stand by his words "Slash should've left after 88 or not have been in the band in the first place" if someone asked him today in privacy and he was being honest. However, this "1988" thing seems real in any case. They used to be close during the Appetite era, but then it went tits up, as you're saying. God knows how any new music from 95/96 would have sounded if they actually made it happen. Oh well, in this universe, it didn't. 

That also a contested topic. Back then Slash would repetitively talk about how Axl was chasing trends and wanted Guns N' Roses to evolve while he (Slash) just wanted to do what they were good at. This culminated in Axl rejecting the music Slash had been working on (Axl and others would later claim Slash insisted on Axl just putting vocals to the finished songs). Axl, on the other hand, would claim this isn't true and that he was willing to make an Appetite sounding record and that's why be agreed to bring in Zakk Wylde. The reason why it didn't happen, according to Axl, was that the songs Slash submitted simply weren't good enough (they ended up on the first Snakepit album) and that Slash wasn't willing to put in the effort to make better songs (Slash was basically checking himself out of the band at this time, focusing instead on Snakepit and other projects), although Slash sort-of hung around until 1996 with a few more writing sessions. Only after Slash had left did Axl, almost out of necessity, change the music of GN'R (while still trying to make music in what he considered to be the spirit, so to say, of the band). Or so he say. All the rumours about Axl wanting to bring in Trent Reznor and work with programming and digital tools and make music in that reaction, was, if you believe him, Axl's plans on a solo album. With things falling apart, the ideas of this more modern solo album and the next GN'R album kind of merged.

So what would we have got if they hadn't split? Well, if Axl had budged we would have got the Snakepit songs released by Guns N' Roses, with Axl on vocals. Or, if Slash hadn't quit, we would have got whatever they worked on before Slash split, and some of these songs we know of today as This I Love, Fall To Pieces and Hardschool. Personally, I think that could have been a great record, in the vein of classic GN'R. And maybe Axl would have released a solo album with a different sound. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by SoulMonster

[Rovim]

10 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

That also a contested topic. Back then Slash would repetitively talk about how Axl was chasing trends and wanted Guns N' Roses to evolve while he (Slash) just wanted to do what they were good at. This culminated in Axl rejecting the music Slash had been working on (Axl and others would later claim Slash insisted on Axl just putting vocals to the finished songs). Axl, on the other hand, would claim this isn't true and that he was willing to make an Appetite sounding record and that's why be agreed to bring in Zakk Wylde. The reason why it didn't happen, according to Axl, was that the songs Slash submitted simply weren't good enough (they ended up on the first Snakepit album) and that Slash wasn't willing to put in the effort to make better songs (Slash was basically checking himself out of the band at this time, focusing instead on Snakepit and other projects), although Slash sort-of hung around until 1996 with a few more writing sessions. Only after Slash had left did Axl, almost out of necessity, change the music of GN'R (while still trying to make music in what he considered to be the spirit, so to say, of the band). Or so he say. All the rumours about Axl wanting to bring in Trent Reznor and work with programming and digital tools and make music in that reaction, was, if you believe him, Axl's plans on a solo album. With things falling apart, the ideas of this more modern solo album and the next GN'R album kind of merged.

So what would we have got if they hadn't split? Well, if Axl had budged we would have got the Snakepit songs released by Guns N' Roses, with Axl on vocals. Or, if Slash hadn't quit, we would have got whatever they worked on before Slash split, and some of these songs we know of today as This I Love, Fall To Pieces and Hardschool. Personally, I think that could have been a great record, in the vein of classic GN'R. And maybe Axl would have released a solo album with a different sound. 

I think the first time Slash was starting to repeat himself musically was the first Snakepit. Axl said Duff didn't think it was good enough to be a Guns album as is as well. Maybe Axl was too quick to dismiss it though. At least some of it could have been a part of the next album.

I wonder how rigid Slash really was when it came to his ideas at the time. If he really played Axl the early Fall To Pieces ideas but didn't give his consent for Axl to work on it as a Gn'R song, that attitude was probably the opposite of what any of them should have done.

I also think bringing Zakk Wylde to play with them was probably a mistake. I believe they should have taken a break from each other and then reconvened and worked on what they had with a guitar player that everyone agreed was the right one for the job, but that was probably too difficult when Axl and Slash probably had a very different idea of what Gn'R was supposed to be next.

Fall To Pieces and the best ideas from Snakepit could have been the start of a full album imo but maybe Axl believed he was the only one who knew where to take Guns musically and Slash could have thought that Axl was fucking with a formula that worked just fine.