metallex78 Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 1 minute ago, downzy said: I don’t think I would consider Metallica “mainstream.” They’ve had just one single reach the top ten in the US mainstream chart (Until It Sleeps). They’ve done well in the rock charts, but I don’t consider an act to be considered mainstream unless they can cross over to audiences who listen to nothing but rock. Most of GNR’s mainstream success came largely from their more lighter or pop-oriented songs. Sweet Child O’ Mine, Patience, November Rain drove a lot of their popularity, especially among the band’s female fanbase. There’s a lot more cross-over appeal to some of GNR’s catalogue that just isn’t present with Metallica’s. I’ve got no problem with Coldplay, especially their first three or four albums. They’re first two albums are fantastic from a songwriting perspective. But you’re also talking to someone who loves Billy Joel and Neil Diamond. Coldplay isn’t a departure from some of the popular rock acts that came before them. Their sound is lighter, sure, but there are a ton of prior rock acts that achieved a lot of success with a softer sound (Supertramp, Air Supply, The Hollies, Elton John, Chicago, Tears For Fears). Many of whom came to be big influences on Axl and helped formed his musical style. If you disagree then perhaps you can explain why GNR covered Wichita Lineman for a year or two prior to things getting shut down. I’m a big fan of Billy Joel, and Metallica were huge with the Black album, long before Until it Sleeps was a hit. So yeah, I’d definitely call them mainstream rock for that era in the early 90’s. Billy Joel has always been considered pop music, even though you could argue that it is rock n roll. And yes, Coldplay still sound like boring elevator music to my ears. More power to you for liking what they do, but calling them a “rock” band just because they play instruments, is a stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanG Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 Then what kind of music do they make? Disco? RnB? K-pop? Sorry, but this is stupid, they clearly make music within the rock genre. If you want to be more specific, call them indie rock/pop or soft-rock. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 11 hours ago, metallex78 said: I’m a big fan of Billy Joel, and Metallica were huge with the Black album, long before Until it Sleeps was a hit. So yeah, I’d definitely call them mainstream rock for that era in the early 90’s. Billy Joel has always been considered pop music, even though you could argue that it is rock n roll. And yes, Coldplay still sound like boring elevator music to my ears. More power to you for liking what they do, but calling them a “rock” band just because they play instruments, is a stretch. Other than maybe Enter Sandman, I don’t believe the Black album got much play with top 40 music stations. At least, nothing like what GNR experienced with SCOM and November Rain. You can look up chart performances and see for yourself. It might have felt like they were mainstream way back when because that’s what we listened to, but I think we should be careful in projecting what we were listening to as something everyone was listening to. And you’re being very arbitrary as to what constitutes as “rock.” It seems to me that any band or act with a discography that isn’t anything but uptempo 4/4 blues-based songs shouldn’t be considered rock. I think most people would consider that limited, but to each their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom2112 Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 On 5/27/2021 at 5:20 PM, downzy said: I think it's all age dependent. If you're over 25-30, you probably think most newer acts can't compete. But the truth is there are "newer" music acts that can draw huge crowds and could be considered big by relative standards. As big as GNR in the early 90s? Tough to say. Taylor Swift, BTS, Ed Sheeran, Arianna Grande, Pink, Post Malone, Bruno Mars, Billie Eilish... All acts that could (or are on their way to beocming) massive tour draws and who have huge streaming counts. You'll notice that none of these acts are considered rock. But rock acts haven't been part of the mainstream since maybe Coldplay had their day back in the 2000s. Taylor Swift is the best example of a current artist with absolutely rabid fans, all sell outs, every merch thing is bought, know all the words, trawl the internet for deep cuts and news. Kings of Leon had a huge 2yrs in 2008-2010. But they didn't really have star power from the band members, nobody knew the names of the guys compared to most people in 80s/90s knowing everybody in GNR with the exception for the teddy Zigzags and Tracy & Roberts additional players. There's Muse too, but it's just different levels. I'm sure there are forums for KOL, Muse, Coldplay where they get into the weeds too, but GNR fandom seems like a whole other world🤣 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 4 hours ago, Tom2112 said: Taylor Swift is the best example of a current artist with absolutely rabid fans, all sell outs, every merch thing is bought, know all the words, trawl the internet for deep cuts and news. Kings of Leon had a huge 2yrs in 2008-2010. But they didn't really have star power from the band members, nobody knew the names of the guys compared to most people in 80s/90s knowing everybody in GNR with the exception for the teddy Zigzags and Tracy & Roberts additional players. There's Muse too, but it's just different levels. I'm sure there are forums for KOL, Muse, Coldplay where they get into the weeds too, but GNR fandom seems like a whole other world🤣 Yeah, I think what separates Guns from a lot of other acts is they basically exited stage left at the height of their popularity. Most acts usually stick around to see their popularity wain or lose their creative mojo. The path Axl took after 1993/1994 is so unusual that fans became fixated on what they knew and baked it into the potential of what might come. The aura around Axl and the dynamics of his and the band’s departure drove a lot of interest that found a home in a community online. We like to say and think GNR was the biggest thing out there back in the early 90s because it’s part of the attraction. Certainly they were huge, but I think it’s arguable that there were bigger acts from both a popularity stand point and as a driver of culture. I think to be a hardcore fan requires a certain level of suspending objectivity. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystery Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 16 hours ago, downzy said: I don’t think I would consider Metallica “mainstream.” They’ve had just one single reach the top ten in the US mainstream chart (Until It Sleeps). They’ve done well in the rock charts, but I don’t consider an act to be considered mainstream unless they can cross over to audiences who listen to nothing but rock. Most of GNR’s mainstream success came largely from their more lighter or pop-oriented songs. Sweet Child O’ Mine, Patience, November Rain drove a lot of their popularity, especially among the band’s female fanbase. There’s a lot more cross-over appeal to some of GNR’s catalogue that just isn’t present with Metallica’s. I’ve got no problem with Coldplay, especially their first three or four albums. They’re first two albums are fantastic from a songwriting perspective. But you’re also talking to someone who loves Billy Joel and Neil Diamond. Coldplay isn’t a departure from some of the popular rock acts that came before them. Their sound is lighter, sure, but there are a ton of prior rock acts that achieved a lot of success with a softer sound (Supertramp, Air Supply, The Hollies, Elton John, Chicago, Tears For Fears). Many of whom came to be big influences on Axl and helped formed his musical style. If you disagree then perhaps you can explain why GNR covered Wichita Lineman for a year or two prior to things getting shut down. I think it's a weird thing when you're talking about older artists. It's impossible even for all time popular acts to keep on scoring number 1s. I'd consider Metallica, GnR, Billy Joel etc. legacy bands. They'll always have a solid fanbase and do well with album sales but they're not at the forefront of pop culture like they were in their heyday. I think it's inevitable when you're around long enough. And I'd certainly consider Metallica mainstream. Next to a band like AC/DC they're the band when people think of heavier music. The Black Album is one of the best selling albums all time in the U.S. They had to have crossed over to people who don't normally listen to rock/metal to achieve that status. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom2112 Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 4 hours ago, downzy said: Yeah, I think what separates Guns from a lot of other acts is they basically exited stage left at the height of their popularity. Most acts usually stick around to see their popularity wain or lose their creative mojo. The path Axl took after 1993/1994 is so unusual that fans became fixated on what they knew and baked it into the potential of what might come. The aura around Axl and the dynamics of his and the band’s departure drove a lot of interest that found a home a in community online. We like to say and think GNR was the biggest thing out there back in the early 90s because it’s part of the attraction. Certainly they were huge, but I think it’s arguable that there were bigger acts from both a popularity stand point and as a driver of culture. I think to be a hardcore fan requires a certain level of suspending objectivity. Nailed it with that last line. 1000% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stay.Of.Execution Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 5 hours ago, downzy said: Other than maybe Enter Sandman, I don’t believe the Black album got much play with top 40 music stations. Nothing else matters, Wherever I may Roam, maybe throw in the Unforgiven in there too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 42 minutes ago, StayofExecution2020 said: Nothing else matters, Wherever I may Roam, maybe throw in the Unforgiven in there too. Yeah, those might have got some cross-over air play (they certainly got their due on MTV), but none of them charted all that highly on the Billboard Top 100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixtlan Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 19 hours ago, metallex78 said: I’m a big fan of Billy Joel, and Metallica were huge with the Black album, long before Until it Sleeps was a hit. So yeah, I’d definitely call them mainstream rock for that era in the early 90’s. Billy Joel has always been considered pop music, even though you could argue that it is rock n roll. And yes, Coldplay still sound like boring elevator music to my ears. More power to you for liking what they do, but calling them a “rock” band just because they play instruments, is a stretch. Coldplay is a great live act. Not boring at all. And the bands production values rival any band/artist on Earth. I call them a rock band because they play in a band that utilizes rock instruments. 7 hours ago, downzy said: Yeah, I think what separates Guns from a lot of other acts is they basically exited stage left at the height of their popularity. Most acts usually stick around to see their popularity wain or lose their creative mojo. The path Axl took after 1993/1994 is so unusual that fans became fixated on what they knew and baked it into the potential of what might come. The aura around Axl and the dynamics of his and the band’s departure drove a lot of interest that found a home in a community online. We like to say and think GNR was the biggest thing out there back in the early 90s because it’s part of the attraction. Certainly they were huge, but I think it’s arguable that there were bigger acts from both a popularity stand point and as a driver of culture. I think to be a hardcore fan requires a certain level of suspending objectivity. Aside from U2 who was a bigger act from the early 90’s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystery Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 28 minutes ago, Ixtlan said: Coldplay is a great live act. Not boring at all. And the bands production values rival any band/artist on Earth. I call them a rock band because they play in a band that utilizes rock instruments. Aside from U2 who was a bigger act from the early 90’s? I'd say Metallica was equal to them since they co-headlined a tour. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanG Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 56 minutes ago, Ixtlan said: Coldplay is a great live act. Not boring at all. And the bands production values rival any band/artist on Earth. I call them a rock band because they play in a band that utilizes rock instruments. Aside from U2 who was a bigger act from the early 90’s? Maybe Aerosmith? Bon Jovi? Bryan Adams? They reached commercial success before GnR did, but probably hit their commercial peak in the 90’s. They all had huge hits in the 90’s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Comstock Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 21 hours ago, downzy said: I don’t think I would consider Metallica “mainstream.” They've played the AMA's and Grammy's a couple times (once with Lady Gaga) they still sell out stadiums, their new and old stuff still gets radio play - I've heard a few stations that will play something like Unforgiven or Nothing Else Matters and then play Coldplay or Imagine Dragons... they're a mainstream band that makes metal/hard rock music. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 21 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said: They've played the AMA's and Grammy's a couple times (once with Lady Gaga) they still sell out stadiums, their new and old stuff still gets radio play - I've heard a few stations that will play something like Unforgiven or Nothing Else Matters and then play Coldplay or Imagine Dragons... they're a mainstream band that makes metal/hard rock music. Yeah, I would say they have become more accepted by the mainstream crowd as the years went by (GNR also benefited in this respect). But we’re talking about the 80s and early 90s. They weren’t a cross over act at the time, as noted by their lack of radio play on top 40 stations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Ixtlan said: Aside from U2 who was a bigger act from the early 90’s? Madonna, Michael Jackson, The Rolling Stones, (arguably) Aerosmith. I think Pink Floyd was still touring together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Comstock Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 2 minutes ago, downzy said: Yeah, I would say they have become more mainstream as the years went by. But we’re talking about the 80s and early 90s. They weren’t a cross over act at the time, as noted by their lack of radio play on top 40 stations. They were playing big venues and headlining festivals by the 90s, and that may have simply been because metal/rock was more mainstream at the time, but they were still a mainstream band. They've become a legendary band because of their success since the late 80s/90s... and there's a reason that lots of fans think they went too mainstream on the Black album, which went platinum in 2 weeks and topped the charts in several countries. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanG Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 They had a modest hit with One in the late 80’s but became even more famous with the Black album and scored big hits with Nothing Else Matters and Enter Sandman. I remember seeing their videos on MTV all the time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 19 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said: They were playing big venues and headlining festivals by the 90s, and that may have simply been because metal/rock was more mainstream at the time, but they were still a mainstream band They were a mainstream rock band, but based on chart performances not a mainstream music act. They weren’t being played on top 40 to the same level as Guns. When I say mainstream I’m talking about someone who can cross over to top 40 radio. I think there was some success there with the Black album (Enter Sandman reached 16 on the hot 100), but it was limited. I’m not arguing that Metallica wasn’t huge. But as a cross over to mainstream top 40, Metallica’s success was far more limited than what GNR or U2 achieved. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallex78 Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 11 hours ago, downzy said: Other than maybe Enter Sandman, I don’t believe the Black album got much play with top 40 music stations. At least, nothing like what GNR experienced with SCOM and November Rain. You can look up chart performances and see for yourself. It might have felt like they were mainstream way back when because that’s what we listened to, but I think we should be careful in projecting what we were listening to as something everyone was listening to. And you’re being very arbitrary as to what constitutes as “rock.” It seems to me that any band or act with a discography that isn’t anything but uptempo 4/4 blues-based songs shouldn’t be considered rock. I think most people would consider that limited, but to each their own. The Black album is the biggest selling album of the soundscan era, with 5 hit singles. They’re about as mainstream rock as it gets. And that was exactly my point, how does mainstream rock go from being the likes of Metallica and GN’R considered the heavyweights of rock, to the likes Coldplay...? Coldplay fans here, keep in mind, I’m sure that while they’re probably good at what they do, and I’ve been quite harsh in my dislike of them. I just don’t consider them rock. They’re a pop band, making pop music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussTCB Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 I've always viewed Metallica as VERY mainstream from the Black Album on. I don't watch them super close, but I've just always thought of them as mainstream from that point on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaguns1982 Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 GnR were like bad boy cartoon characters, slash in his top hat, Axls bandanna, sure there are bands that can sell out stadiums like the foo fighters but nobody gives a fuck about the members other than Dave grohl. they are essentially boring... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Comstock Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 2 hours ago, downzy said: They were a mainstream rock band, but based on chart performances not a mainstream music act. They weren’t being played on top 40 to the same level as Guns. When I say mainstream I’m talking about someone who can cross over to top 40 radio. I think there was some success there with the Black album (Enter Sandman reached 16 on the hot 100), but it was limited. I’m not arguing that Metallica wasn’t huge. But as a cross over to mainstream top 40, Metallica’s success was far more limited than what GNR or U2 achieved. They might not have had a top 40 song but they're still a mainstream rock band. It's not exactly surprising that radio stations who were playing Michael Jackson or U2 or whatever weren't playing Metallica, but their record sales show they were a mainstream band Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 13 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said: They might not have had a top 40 song but they're still a mainstream rock band. It's not exactly surprising that radio stations who were playing Michael Jackson or U2 or whatever weren't playing Metallica, but their record sales show they were a mainstream band But those stations were playing Guns. Based on the chart positions of Don’t Cry and November Rain, Guns were a far bigger cross over act than Metallica. It’s incredibly difficult for rock bands to break into and hold a top ten radio hit on the Hot 100. Very few do it. But when it happens, it signifies how some acts can reach an audience larger than the rock crowd. Everyone and their Moms had heard of Axl and Slash’s name in the early 90s. Terminator II had selected the band to be on their soundtrack and have its marquee star included in the video. Metallica were big and the Black album made them a mainstream rock act, but if you didn’t listen to rock you likely had no clue who James or Lars were. But you likely knew who Axl or Slash were. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Comstock Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 9 minutes ago, downzy said: But those stations were playing Guns. Based on the chart positions of Don’t Cry and November Rain, Guns were a far bigger cross over act than Metallica. It’s incredibly difficult for rock bands to break into and hold a top ten radio hit on the Hot 100. Very few do it. But when it happens, it signifies how some acts can reach an audience larger than the rock crowd. Everyone and their Moms had heard of Axl and Slash’s name in the early 90s. Terminator II had selected the band to be on their soundtrack and have its marquee star included in the video. Metallica were big and the Black album made them a mainstream rock act, but if you didn’t listen to rock you likely had no clue who James or Lars were. But you likely knew who Axl or Slash were. Not being 'as mainstream' as GNR in 1991-92 doesn't mean they weren't mainstream, though. We agree that they weren't as big as GNR, but their album sales, along with playing award shows and big venues, proves they were a popular, relatively mainstream band. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixtlan Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said: Not being 'as mainstream' as GNR in 1991-92 doesn't mean they weren't mainstream, though. We agree that they weren't as big as GNR, but their album sales, along with playing award shows and big venues, proves they were a popular, relatively mainstream band. Metallica became more mainstream during the Load era. And as Downzy stated there is a difference between mainstream rock and mainstream music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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