Vaccination proof?

[Stay.Of.Execution]

4 minutes ago, WhazUp said:

Has anyone else noticed that the people so against vaccinations or think COVID is a hoax sound like every teenager in high school after reading Catcher In The Rye and 1984?

They'll also be the first ones to go shoot somebody probably.

[alfierose]

8 minutes ago, WhazUp said:

Has anyone else noticed that the people so against vaccinations or think COVID is a hoax sound like every teenager in high school after reading Catcher In The Rye and 1984?

I think part of the problem is separating the politics from the science. I believe that public health officials such as Prof Chris Whitty in the UK have been trying to perform their civic duty to the best of their ability in an unprecedented and fast changing situation.

However there are good reasons to be concerned with how governments utilise emergency powers and what the longer term consequences might be. In the last 18 months we've seen incidents of draconian police overreach that made many people uncomfortable with good reason. There are also those unscrupulous individuals seeing opportunities for disaster capitalism and/or opportunities to bury other issues under the radar. 

So I can see why people become sceptical because politics is a dirty business. However putting that to one side I don't think it's helpful to be mistrustful of the vaccine itself nor play down what a dangerous virus Covid is for a significant number of people - yes you might get lucky and have a mild cold or you might descend into total organ failure. Truth is prior to the vaccine it really was a lottery.

Now we have vaccines and whilst not a cure our odds are considerably better so to me it's just prudent to give yourself the best chance and also contribute to the protection of wider society. Even if it's for no other reason than get out of this cycle of restrictions and suspension of civil liberties. I don't want to give Boris et al more reason to hang onto draconian measures because the longer we live with them the more they become normalised.

There are no absolute certainties but with a very high vaccine take up we might have a chance to wrestle back control. I don't think people should be vaccinated against their will but I would hope that most people see it's the best option we have, even if it takes some a little longer to come to that conclusion.

[Sisyphus]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

This discussion would be a lot more effective if you wouldn't make me go: What numbers are being manipulated and presented selectively? 

The number of confirmed cases due to unreliable testing methods, widespread asymptomatic testing, generalizations of all respiratory diseases under the umbrella term covid-19, the sudden "absence" of flu, false positives that did not get retroactively rectified in the stats.

We were forced fed the same narrative with 30 confirmed cases per day or 1500 cases per day. "The hospitals are at the limit of their capacity." I shit you not. Same phrases, same intimidation. 

The presentation of statistical data shifted multiple times. First they were reporting the raw numbers of positive case, then perecentage of positives among those being tested, then they separated the testing methods and started to present scattered data for various testing methods, etc. Just a big manipulative mess. The media played a major part in this because they went to extreme lengths to highlight whichever statistical data appeared to be more apocalyptic. And the designated officials sure gave them a lot of maneuvering space to do that by providing all kinds of non-uniform statistical data.

Manipulating the cause of death. Everyone that had covid-19 officially died because of covid-19 but there were no autopsies and a complete disregard to pre-existing medical conditions or various factors that contributed to the outcome - fear, panic, paranoia, isolation, the "death sentence" stigma, unavaliability of medical services, postponment of check-ups, operations, limited acces to physicians, etc.

There was also a financial incentive for people dealing with the infected that he cause of death is deemed covid-19.  The deceased that were in contact with an infected were said to have died of covid-19 without being officially tested. 

Also the daily death toll. Total secrecy in regards to age and the condition of the deceased (obesity, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, high blood pressure, pre-existing conditions, users of potentially fatal medicines). Nothing. Every death was/is presented to us as "an average Joe", healthy as fuck, succumbing to this deadly virus. Also, no distinction between how many people actually died in hospitals or at home, nursing homes or elsewhere. This data is unavaliable. 

At the height of covid panic Slovenia had about 1500 to 1800 per cases per day. There was zero information on how many of those people actually needed hospital treatment (the number of patients in hospital / intensive care was presented daily but with no correlation to the number of newly confirmed cases), how many were asymptomatic, how many suffered any long terms consequences, what eventually happened to all those people, ten thousands of them in a matter of weeks? They vanished into thin air. Because the purpose of the daily positives/death toll is to induce fear and the feeling of omnipresent threat. The purpose is not for you or me to be properly informed.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Sisyphus

[AppetiteForDestruction]

My body my choice. Right? Oh wait, thats out the window. I know people including myself who haven’t gotten it because my doctor told me to hold off due to pre existing medical conditions, if they want passports for concerts and to eat in a restaurant, I’ll be Glad to stay home. People have the choice to get vaxxed or not but calling people names and so forth for not getting it is childish and pathetic.  And I love how people are in denial thinking the Vaxx can’t get sick, they can and are. It’s not just the unvaxxed

Edited August 11, 2021 by AppetiteForDestruction

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

The number of confirmed cases due to unreliable testing methods, widespread asymptomatic testing, generalizations of all respiratory diseases under the umbrella term covid-19, the sudden "absence" of flu, false positives that did not get retroactively rectified in the stats.

We have to take this sentence by sentence.

What are you actually saying here? Are you saying the testing methods are unreliable and hence we can't trust numbers of infections? Well, yeah, it is well known that these numbers come with uncertainties but what has that got to do with manipulation of nstatistics?

"Widespread asymptomatic testing"? Is that a negative? And what's it got to do with your claim about statistics being manipulated? 

Haver all respiratory diseases been classified as Covid-19? Uh-huh, not where I live. Here the vast majority of deaths are checked for Covid-19 and only classified as Covid-19 if indeed the person had Covid-19 and then only if a doctor concluded that the person wouldn't have died if it weren't for the Covid-19 infection.

Absence of flu? I wasn't aware it had gone, but naturally with the most vulnerable dying from Covid-19, flu will not spread as quickly nor kill as many. And what has that got to do with manipulation of statistics or are you claiming that a large proportion of the classified Covid-19 deaths were really from the flu?

Can you give an example of false positives that weren't rectified in the stats?

[Sisyphus]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

We have to take this sentence by sentence.

What are you actually saying here? Are you saying the testing methods are unreliable and hence we can't trust numbers of infections? Well, yeah, it is well known that these numbers come with uncertainties but what has that got to do with manipulation of nstatistics?

"Widespread asymptomatic testing"? Is that a negative? And what's it got to do with your claim about statistics being manipulated? 

Haver all respiratory diseases been classified as Covid-19? Uh-huh, not where I live. Here the vast majority of deaths are checked for Covid-19 and only classified as Covid-19 if indeed the person had Covid-19 and then only if a doctor concluded that the person wouldn't have died if it weren't for the Covid-19 infection.

Absence of flu? I wasn't aware it had gone, but naturally with the most vulnerable dying from Covid-19, flu will not spread as quickly nor kill as many. And what has that got to do with manipulation of statistics or are you claiming that a large proportion of the classified Covid-19 deaths were really from the flu?

Can you give an example of false positives that weren't rectified in the stats?

You're not actually interested in a discussion unless you think discussing means dissecting tiny fragments of my posts and forcing me to explain the same thing over and over again from this pseudo moral high ground you've positioned yourself in. Basically you're just nitpicking through my posts, looking for anything to latch on without really providing any counter argument. 

Yes, the testing methods are unreliable, as evidenced by the false positives and confirmed by the inventor of PCR tests himself. 

Yes, testing asymptomatic people is problematic due to unreliability, resulting in needles quarantines and the aforementioned stigma. Also the procedure is invasive. But less problematic from a manipulation standoint, I give you that. Although the sheer number of test being carried out can work really well as an intimidating factor.

Yes, most of the respiratory diseases fall under the umbrealla term covid-19. I can't prove that. Can you prove that majority of deaths in Norway are checked for covid-19 or that the doctor's procedure is in fact what you claim to be? Funny you use the word majority.

Yes, the flu virtually disappeared. Because everything is covid-19 these days. The generalization inflated covid-19 number to ridiculous heights.

No, I'm not claiming the covid-19 deaths are from flu. I claim the number of deaths are exaggerated with disregard to other medical conditions that greatly contiributed to it or were an underlying cause.

No, I can't give you an example. Can you give me an example that they were? False positives are a fact yet I've never encountered the media, goverment or health officials to retroactively rectify the stats.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Sisyphus

[nycgunner]

1 minute ago, Sisyphus said:

You're not actually interested in a discussion unless you think discussing means dissecting tiny fragments of my posts and forcing me to explain the same thing over and over again from this pseudo moral high ground you've positioned yourself in. Basically you're just nitpicking through my posts, looking for anything to latch on without really providing any counter argument. 

Yes, the testing methods are unreliable, as evidenced by the false positives and confirmed by the inventor of PCR tests himself. 

Yes, testing asymptomatic people is problematic due to unreliability, resulting in needles quarantines and the aforementioned stigma. Also the procedure is invasive. But less problematic from a manipulation standoint, I give you that. Although the sheer number of test being carried out can work really well as an intimidating factor.

Yes, most of the respiratory diseases fall under the umbrealla term covid-19. I can't prove than. Can you prove that majority of deaths in Norway are checked for covid-19 or that the doctor's procedure is in fact what you claim to be? Funny you use the word majority.

Yes, the flu virtually disappeared. Because everything is covid-19 these days.

No, I'm not claiming the covid-19 deaths are from flu. I claim the number of deaths are exaggerated with disregard to other medical conditions that greaty contiributed to it or were an underlying cause.

If anything, deaths from covid are understated globally. India alone has 4m+ more deaths than typical but is “only” reporting ~450k covid deaths 

 

 

[SoulMonster]

Just now, Sisyphus said:

You'te not actually interested in a discussion unless you think discussing means dissecting tiny fragments of my posts and forcing me to explain the same thing over and over again from this pseudo moral high ground you've positioned yourself in. Basically you're just nitpicking through my posts, looking for anything to latch on without really providing any counter argument. 

Yes, the testing methods are unreliable, as evidenced by the false positives and confirmed by the inventor of PCR tests himself. 

Yes, testing asymptomatic people is problematic due to unreliability, resulting in needles quarantines and the aforementioned stigma. Also the procedure is invasive. But less problematic from a manipulation standoint, I give you that. Although the sheer number of test being carried out can work really well as an intimidating factor.

Yes, most of the respiratory diseases fall under the umbrealla term covid-19. I can't prove than. Can you prove that majority of deaths in Norway are checked for covid-19 or that the doctor's procedure is in fact what you claim to be? Funny you use the word majority.

Yes, the flu virtually disappeared. Because everything is covid-19 these days.

No, I'm not claiming the covid-19 deaths are from flu. I claim the number of deaths are exaggerated with disregard to other medical conditions that greaty contiributed to it or were an underlying cause.

It seems like it all boils down to your claim that non-Covid-19 respiratory deaths are used to exaggerate Covid-19 death statistics. But you already claimed you could not prove that, so there we are 

No, I cannot prove that every Norwegian doctor who classifies mortalities are doing it according to the protocol, but there is no reason to assume the numbers are inflated either. Doctors are trained at classifying deaths and will likely make the right judgmental call when determining if someone died with or of Covid-19. I can prove that the majority are checked for Covid-19 though, because I had to research that number for another thing I wrote some weeks ago. The source was in Norwegian and it would take me some time to find it. Sure you want it? Seems like a waste of time unless you actually think I am lying.

[SoulMonster]

Here's a few fact check reports on the general claim that Covid-19 deaths are exaggerated: 

Flawed Report Fuels Erroneous Claims About COVID-19 Death Toll - FactCheck.org

Fact check: Changes to the counting of COVID-19 deaths in August reduced England’s death toll | Reuters

Fact check: There's no 20-day rule for counting COVID-19 deaths (usatoday.com)

Fact check: CDC not inflating COVID-19 deaths (usatoday.com)

It is a common claim by anti-vaxxers that Covid-19 death numbers are grossly exaggerated. It's all a conspiracy, you see, they inflate the numbers so they can justify restrictions because, shit, I don't know, they hate us? 

[backinblack]

If you live in society, then you need to do things that benefit society even if you don't want to. Some things are enforced by law. Pay taxes. Drive on the correct side of the road. Some things are just common sense or just things you're expected to do if you're to be a cooperative member of society. Don't cough in people's faces. Say sorry when you step on someone's foot. Don't use the community pool if you've got diarrhea.

One of those things now is getting vaccinated.

If you go live far away from everybody else, feel free to not do any of these things. If you're living near other people, go get vaccinated.

[Stay.Of.Execution]

4 minutes ago, backinblack said:

If you live in society, then you need to do things that benefit society even if you don't want to. Some things are enforced by law. Pay taxes. Drive on the correct side of the road. Some things are just common sense or just things you're expected to do if you're to be a cooperative member of society. Don't cough in people's faces. Say sorry when you step on someone's foot. Don't use the community pool if you've got diarrhea.

One of those things now is getting vaccinated.

If you go live far away from everybody else, feel free to not do any of these things. If you're living near other people, go get vaccinated.

Stop expecting everyone to have some common sense or human decency. 

[Sisyphus]

23 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

It seems like it all boils down to your claim that non-Covid-19 respiratory deaths are used to exaggerate Covid-19 death statistics. But you already claimed you could not prove that, so there we are 

No, I cannot prove that every Norwegian doctor who classifies mortalities are doing it according to the protocol, but there is no reason to assume the numbers are inflated either. Doctors are trained at classifying deaths and will likely make the right judgmental call when determining if someone died with or of Covid-19. I can prove that the majority are checked for Covid-19 though, because I had to research that number for another thing I wrote some weeks ago. The source was in Norwegian and it would take me some time to find it. Sure you want it? Seems like a waste of time unless you actually think I am lying.

No, it does not. For you it all "boils down to" whichever little paragraph of mine you hand-picked for further nit-picking with total disregard to extensive argumentation on how the manipulation is carried out. The amount of content your purposely ignore in staggering.

There's zero conspiracy theory in my post. Simple observation. 

You may be able to prove that "majority are checked" but why stop at majority? Leverage.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer. 

[SoulMonster]

10 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

No, it does not. For you it all "boils down to" whichever little paragraph of mine you hand-picked for further nit-picking with total disregard to extensive argumentation on how the manipulation is carried out. The amount of content your purposely ignore in staggering.

But what other thing you got to support your claim that there is a fallacy here that I am not seeing connected to the manipulation of statistics? You listed lots of stuff that wasn't about statistics and then an unsupported claim that the Covbid-19 deaths are exaggerated. What did I miss? 

Btw, are you talking about things exclusive to Slovenia, then I can't be expected to help you. The data must be in English for me to consider whether they have been manipulated.

Edited August 11, 2021 by SoulMonster

[Tom2112]

On 8/9/2021 at 8:43 PM, SilverMachine said:

I don't want to bring it home to my kids who can't get vaccinated.

Hey look, gnr will almost certainly tour the US next year too, so skip this year. Sucks, but a concert is not that important!

[backinblack]

16 minutes ago, Stay.Of.Execution said:

Stop expecting everyone to have some common sense or human decency. 

Yeah thats the world we live in now unfortunately

[Cosmo]

29 minutes ago, Stay.Of.Execution said:

Stop expecting everyone to have some common sense or human decency. 

This. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Cosmo

[Sweersa]

8 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

If you are youngish and generally healthy then getting vaccinated is more about doing your bit to prevent others from getting sick, than yourself. 

So for me, vaccination is more a social thing than a selfish thing. It is about doing my bit to save others.

Can't vaccinated people still carry, and transmit the "disease"? If so, how would being vaccinated help others? Let's say I'm vaccinated, and get the 'rona. What if I have mild or no symptoms, and go about my life around others, and get them sick as a result of me not knowing I need to quarantine?

39 minutes ago, backinblack said:

One of those things now is getting vaccinated.

If you go live far away from everybody else, feel free to not do any of these things. If you're living near other people, go get vaccinated.

Nah, I don't think so. 

[SoulMonster]

Just now, Sweersa said:

Can't vaccinated people still carry, and transmit the "disease"? If so, how would being vaccinated help others? Let's say I'm vaccinated, and get the 'rona. What if I have mild or no symptoms, and go about my life around others, and get them sick as a result of me not knowing I need to quarantine?

Yes, vaccinated people can also get Covid-19, at least some of them, but less likely. So being vaccinated means the disease is less likely to spread from you to others.

[backinblack]

2 minutes ago, Sweersa said:

Can't vaccinated people still carry, and transmit the "disease"? If so, how would being vaccinated help others? Let's say I'm vaccinated, and get the 'rona. What if I have mild or no symptoms, and go about my life around others, and get them sick as a result of me not knowing I need to quarantine?

Nah, I don't think so. 

Ahh yes the classic "if it doesn't work 100% then it's worthless" argument. We can't stop EVERYBODY from dying in car accidents, so let's not have any traffic laws!

It's a good thing it doesn't matter what you think, the vaccine mandates will be coming whether you like it or not.

[Sisyphus]

30 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

But what other thing you got to support your claim that there is a fallacy here that I am not seeing connected to the manipulation of statistics? You listed lots of stuff that wasn't about statistics and then an unsupported claim that the Covbid-19 deaths are exaggerated. What did I miss? 

Come on, man. I have provided many examples how the statistics were/are manipulated with the lack of transarency and radical changes in how the information was/is being presented. I'm not doing it again.

In regards to why they're doing it I could propose multiple possible motives. My government inparticular has many ulterior motives that have little to do with people's health.

Perhaps the biggest irony is that I hope you're right. I hope that your firm belief in the establishment, science, doctors and politics will bring us a fairy tale ending. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Sisyphus

[backinblack]

Hey guys, we can't stop ALL people from breaking into houses and raping people. We better get rid of the laws making those things crimes.

[Sweersa]

3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Yes, vaccinated people can also get Covid-19, at least some of them, but less likely. So being vaccinated means the disease is less likely to spread from you to others.

Good to know, thanks!

2 minutes ago, backinblack said:

It's a good thing it doesn't matter what you think, the vaccine mandates will be coming whether you like it or not.

Bring it on!

[invisible_rose]

1 hour ago, nycgunner said:

If anything, deaths from covid are understated globally. India alone has 4m+ more deaths than typical but is “only” reporting ~450k covid deaths 

 

 

Yup, agreed. Also many 'deaths in the community' aren't getting registered. IIRC India is putting Covid on the death certificate for deaths that are directly attributed to Covid-19. IE if someone was terminally ill with weeks to live and died "with Covid" but not as a direct cause, then they're not counting that. Many other nations went the other way.

There's very little doubt Covid is cutting some peoples lives short and that's before we consider the unknown long lasting effects of Long Covid and such like. A relatively healthy friend of mine caught Covid in the first wave in the UK, around Feb/March '20. She still is out of breath when carrying out day to day tasks. 

I've had it twice now, around 12-13 months apart. First time had me out for around two weeks. Second time, with a single jab, I suffered for around 3-4 days. Make of that as you will. 

[SoulMonster]

Just now, Sisyphus said:

Come on, man. I have provided many examples how the statistics were/are manipulated with the lack of transarency and radical changes in how the information was/is being presented. I'm not doing it again.

You have? I haven't seen any examples, just lots of accusations from you that you cannot prove. Your claim that Covid19 deaths are inflated is an example of that. but you haven't been willing or able to justify such an accusation the slightest.

Again, let me remind you, you claimed that I "fail to realize that the numbers are being manipulated". The only thing you have given me are unsupported claims. How can you expect me to realize that numbers are manipulated when you can't give me any evidence for them being manipulated? It seems like you have just decided to believe they are.

[gt72]

4 hours ago, Dazey said:

I keep hearing this said so I have to ask. Was your understanding at any point that it wasn't possible for vaccinated people to contract and transmit the virus? 

It was my understanding in the beginning of the vaccine rollout that is was highly unlikely for vaccinated people to catch or transmit the virus.Masks mandates were lifted here in California as recently as a couple of months ago for those who were vaccinated.Since then those mandates have been put back in place as their is now ample prove that those who are vaccinated can catch and transmit the virus.I know numerous vaccinated people who have been infected with covid.I just got off the phone with my uncle yesterday who has covid.my aunt went to Florida (vaccinated ) to visit my cousin got infected and now my Uncle who was home is also infected.This is just one example numerous people I know here in town are or have been infected since being fully vaccinated.My point in my earlier post was the we shouldn’t vilify people who choose not to be vaccinated.While yes mRNA has been tested for a long time it has never been used in such a wide scale on humans ever.The vaccine may be affective now but none of us know what the long term effects are or if their are any to pretend otherwise is simply wrong as it is not possible.I got vaccinated I have a son who has a rare severe form of epilepsy whom I care for who is considered high risk of complications from covid and I know quite a few people who have died and some who are 3-4 months out and still feel awful.Covid is an awful disease and we seem to have the antidote for it so I went for it but those to dont I understand their position.To me to make someone put something in their body that has not survived the test of time (vaccines normally take 5-10 years to go through rigorous studies /testing ) before they get to general public is wrong in my opinion.Again this is my opinion it’s not a right or wrong statement.It’s just my personal opinion and I feel if I knew I got covid I never ever would’ve taken the vaccine and theirs quite a few people who have.So at this point you’re asking someone to get the vaccine to attend events and in reality that someone may not benefit much from it as he/she has natural immunity.Yes I know you can catch it again just like you can still get it when your vaccinated but theirs obviously a level of protection  from it.