Vaccination proof?

[Flayer]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

There is good reason for everybody to get vaccinated because it does reduce the likelihood of getting sick and die and if you are vaccinated and get sick you are less likely to spread it to others. 

A rate of new infections this August with ~70% of the population vaccinated being around the same as that of last November, when ~0% of the population was vaccinated suggests this simply is not true.

[Sisyphus]

52 minutes ago, GnR Chris said:

Do you realize how silly you sound when your conspiracy is that the governments and media across the entire world have gotten together to push the narrative of a deadly virus, shutting down businesses, travel, sports, all in an effort to ensure a financial boon to public health care? The US government has foot the bill for the vaccines, the syringes, etc. to provide them at no cost to people to try to keep people out of hospitals.

Calm down.  That's not what I said at all.

I regards to the official numbers the whole thing was financially beneficial to the public hospitals and vast majority of individuals in the public health care. That is the case in my country. An indisputable fact.

As for the rest, I don't think that anyone has "gotten together", I find this simplistic description of yours rather annoying.

The bottom line is this: the whole handling of the situation has been extremely iffy. Unreasonable, irrational, illogical and sometimes downright stupid. The fact that this unreal handling of the pandemic doesn't raise a red flag in everyone baffles me.

I have no interest in promoting any type of conspiracy theory. I'm not a flat earther. I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I'm not a covid denier. But I can think for myself. 

If you want to play ball, play ball. But I'm not doing it. And I could write a fucking essay why I'm not doing but I don't think this is the time or the place.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Sisyphus

[Sweersa]

1 hour ago, invisible_rose said:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

That's based on confirmed cases. I'd suggest the actual rates are much lower. But the consensus was roughly 1% in first world countries.  

Thanks!

If it was more dangerous, I'd be more prone to accepting the risks of the vaccine and taking it.

But at 1% (or less) fatality rate, I'll take my chances.

[GnR Chris]

55 minutes ago, Flayer said:

A rate of new infections this August with ~70% of the population vaccinated being around the same as that of last November, when ~0% of the population was vaccinated suggests this simply is not true.

I said this already and maybe you chose to ignore it. Take Chicago, for example. Last November, almost everything was shut down. There were no live concerts. No one was attending sporting events. No large public gatherings. Everyone was wearing a mask in grocery stores. Restaurants were closed for indoor dining. Bars were closed. More people were working from home.

You take that into account, and then compare it right now where people are out and about (Lollapalooza, Cubs games, restaurants, clubs, etc), and say "infections are the same as last November." What do you think the infection rate would have been last November before the vaccine if Chicago was the wide open free-for-all it is now?

In Chicago, the death rate is lower now than it was during the peak of the crisis last year (when everyone was staying home).

In the month of June 2021, 96 percent of the people hospitalized for covid-19 in Chicago were not vaccinated. 

Source: https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/08/09/more-than-70-of-adults-in-chicago-have-now-gotten-at-least-1-covid-19-vaccine-shot/

Edited August 10, 2021 by GnR Chris

[gt72]

I don’t understand why people get so upset at others who either get the vaccine or don’t.It’s now been proven that the vaccinated can and do transmit the virus.People who choose to not get vaccinated have their personal reasons for not getting vaccinated and we should respect that.I know of quite a few people who are vaccinated and got covid and got quite sick one is currently on a ventilator.A good friend of mine is currently also on a ventilator and was not vaccinated.I believe that the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the possible side effects or the threat of the the unknown  so I got the shot but realistically we don’t know much about these new type of mrna vaccines long term.Your body,your choice let’s not blame the unvaccinated for being the only ones who are transmitting the virus because that narrative simply is not true.As far as proving vaccination status I believe that is unfair as we cannot say with 100 percent certainty that these vaccines are absolutely safe and also many people have natural immunity which has proven to be far superior in terms of protection 

[Flayer]

31 minutes ago, GnR Chris said:

I said this already and maybe you chose to ignore it. Take Chicago, for example. Last November, almost everything was shut down. There were no live concerts. No one was attending sporting events. No large public gatherings. Everyone was wearing a mask in grocery stores. Restaurants were closed for indoor dining. Bars were closed. More people were working from home.

You take that into account, and then compare it right now where people are out and about (Lollapalooza, Cubs games, restaurants, clubs, etc), and say "infections are the same as last November." What do you think the infection rate would have been last November before the vaccine if Chicago was the wide open free-for-all it is now?

In Chicago, the death rate is lower now than it was during the peak of the crisis last year (when everyone was staying home).

In the month of June 2021, 96 percent of the people hospitalized for covid-19 in Chicago were not vaccinated. 

Source: https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/08/09/more-than-70-of-adults-in-chicago-have-now-gotten-at-least-1-covid-19-vaccine-shot/

Why, if they hadn’t locked everything down, it might have gotten just as bad there as Sweden!

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe-mortality-idUSKBN2BG1R9

Edited August 11, 2021 by Flayer

[eggers]

A lot of really dumb people in this thread. Get the vaccine and shut up.

[Gordon Comstock]

17 minutes ago, eggers said:

A lot of really dumb people in this thread. Get the vaccine and shut up.

 

^ Speaking of dumb posts...

[James Bond]

This thread turned into quite the ride considering the initial question was just simply asking if vaccine proof was required to attend the tour.

[GnR Chris]

36 minutes ago, Flayer said:

Why, if they hadn’t locked everything down, it might have gotten just as bad there as Sweden!

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe-mortality-idUSKBN2BG1R9

 

Sweden is an interesting case study, to be sure. But there is more than meets the eye there if you look past the headlines and memes on the internet. 

Sweden’s per-capita case counts and death rates have been many times higher than any of its Nordic neighbors, all of which imposed lockdowns, travel bans, and limited gatherings early on. Over all in Sweden, thirteen thousand people have died from covid-19. In Norway, which has a population that is half the size of Sweden’s, and where stricter lockdowns were enforced, about seven hundred people have died.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/swedens-pandemic-experiment

Sweden's death rate is lower than the United States', but it's more than doubled in the last 10 months.

For the majority of 2021, Sweden's per capita confirmed cases exceeded the US and Europe. See here:

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&facet=none&pickerSort=asc&pickerMetric=location&Metric=Confirmed+cases&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=SWE~USA~European+Union

Sweden's death rate of 142.5 per 100,000 population exceeds its neighbors: Denmark (43.89), Finland (17.84), Norway (15.03) and Iceland (8.3). - Johns Hopkins University.

ddd

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-sweden-commission/sweden-failed-to-protect-elderly-in-covid-pandemic-commission-finds-idUSKBN28P1PPrsity.

[GnR Chris]

1 hour ago, gt72 said:

I don’t understand why people get so upset at others who either get the vaccine or don’t.It’s now been proven that the vaccinated can and do transmit the virus.People who choose to not get vaccinated have their personal reasons for not getting vaccinated and we should respect that.I know of quite a few people who are vaccinated and got covid and got quite sick one is currently on a ventilator.A good friend of mine is currently also on a ventilator and was not vaccinated.I believe that the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the possible side effects or the threat of the the unknown  so I got the shot but realistically we don’t know much about these new type of mrna vaccines long term.Your body,your choice let’s not blame the unvaccinated for being the only ones who are transmitting the virus because that narrative simply is not true.As far as proving vaccination status I believe that is unfair as we cannot say with 100 percent certainty that these vaccines are absolutely safe and also many people have natural immunity which has proven to be far superior in terms of protection 

I like this thread as long as we can keep it cordial and separate fact from fiction.

As to your comment that mRNA vaccines are new, that is untrue.

Researchers have been studying and working with mRNA vaccines for decades. Interest has grown in these vaccines because they can be developed in a laboratory using readily available materials. This means the process can be standardized and scaled up, making vaccine development faster than traditional methods of making vaccines.

mRNA vaccines have been studied before for flu, Zika, rabies, and cytomegalovirus (CMV). As soon as the necessary information about the virus that causes COVID-19 was available, scientists began designing the mRNA instructions for cells to build the unique spike protein into an mRNA vaccine.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

Also, to your point about vaccinated people also spreading the virus: 

The greater the number of unvaccinated people in a community, the more opportunity germs have to spread. This means outbreaks are more difficult to stem and everyone is at greater risk of exposure — including vaccinated people ... The fewer susceptible people in a community, the less opportunity the pathogen has to spread.

https://www.chop.edu/news/feature-article-if-vaccines-work-why-do-unvaccinated-people-pose-risk

 

Experts say the uptick in COVID-19 cases is happening largely because of the number of people who remain unvaccinated.

“They play a huge role. If everyone is vaccinated, eventually infections drop to zero and so do variants,“ Parikh said. “But if the virus has an easy host, such as an unvaccinated individual, then it is easy for it to mutate into a more contagious and virulent form.”

One of the key characteristics of the coronavirus is the spike protein that allows it to latch onto a host cell, penetrate it, and cause an infection.

That spike is what vaccines target to block the virus.

In the unvaccinated, however, the virus gets in, hijacks the cell, and turns it into a factory. It then makes thousands of copies of itself. If there’s a copying mistake or error, scientists call that a mutation.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/unvaccinated-people-are-increasing-the-chances-for-more-coronavirus-variants-heres-how#Tough-times-ahead?

TLDR: Those who are actively choosing to ignore pertinent information and remain unvaccinated are helping prolong this pandemic. 

[Coma16]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CSZUoZlFdhL/?utm_medium=copy_link

[tsinindy]

3 hours ago, Flayer said:

A rate of new infections this August with ~70% of the population vaccinated being around the same as that of last November, when ~0% of the population was vaccinated suggests this simply is not true.

But that isn’t the ihfection rate...shall I prove you wrong again?

[nycgunner]

4 hours ago, Flayer said:

A rate of new infections this August with ~70% of the population vaccinated being around the same as that of last November, when ~0% of the population was vaccinated suggests this simply is not true.

Dude, delta is multiple times more contagious with viral loads 1000x the original covid infection last year. That’s why infections and hospital rates are so high now. 98% of the people in the hospital and the hundreds dying per day in the US today aren’t vaccinated…

Your comparison flat out doesn’t make any sense.

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by nycgunner

[Pedrolg]

Every single argument against vaccines in this thread is based on lies and misinformation or wrongful manipulation of data presented in a dishonest or superficial manner. 

Comparing pre-vaccine infection rates with current infection rates is ludicrous. We ended last year on severe lockdowns. Of all people, those at a GNR forum should recognize that the US and the world opened up. We are discussing packed concerts in stadiums, after all. 

Still, if one is to compare infection rates, it is dishonest or stupid to do so without also comparing death rates. While vaccines are partially effective in preventing infection, their main goal is to prevent serious ilness and death. The fact that deaths are not rising at the same rate that cases corroborate the hundreds of studies available and fully published that already showed that most of our current vaccines are effective against serious ilness and deaths, even with the delta variant.

Absolutely nothing is being hidden from anybody. Everything is out in the open. Vaccines were very effective at preventing infection, but covid mutated, there are new variants, delta and possibily lambda. It's widely accepted and admitted by the scientific community and governements that this effectiveness is severely reduced against new variants. Still, studies and analysis of countries where vaccination is advanced show that, thankfully, effectiveness against serious disease and death are holding up.  SO FAR.

I say "so far" because unlike what most people seem to think, vaccines are not an individual line of defense, they are a collective line of defense. A large % of vaccinated people makes it really hard for the virus to evolve and mutate. Unvaccinated people, on the other hand, are a fucking playground for mutation. The more of you antivaxxers are out there, the greater that chance of covid evolving into a variant that indeed renders current vaccines and treatments useless. Scientists have been warning us about it. It will happen.

By refusing the vaccine and advocating against it you are helping the virus fight humanity. You are jeopardizing our fight as a species against a virus that is adapting and has killed millions of people. Not thousands, or hundreds of thousands, but millions. The new strains are more agressive and more dangerous. Humanity has no other answer, as of now, except the vaccines. They are our best shot.

So in my book, and I'm sure that a lot of others here agree but are to polite too say it, this makes you - any person who refuses the vaccine or has taken upon themselves to fight the vaccines - a fucking idiot. Your ignorance kills people. Please, try to inform yourself about what's is truly at stake here. If you refuse to do so and insist on replying to well informed posts with multiple scientific sources with lies and memes, than suit yourself, but don't complain afterwards about the kind of replies you will get. Most of us non-idiots can't do anything to hold you accountable for your irresponsible, death causing behaviour - yet, at least. But we reserve the right to treat fucking idiots for what they are.

[SoulMonster]

4 hours ago, Flayer said:

A rate of new infections this August with ~70% of the population vaccinated being around the same as that of last November, when ~0% of the population was vaccinated suggests this simply is not true.

What country are you talking about and can you provide me with a source for the numbers? 

Regardless, infection rates is not simply a result of vaccination,  do you have control on the other factors that affect this, like virus variant, season, restrictions, behavior, etc? 

[Coma16]

27 minutes ago, Pedrolg said:

Every single argument against vaccines in this thread is based on lies and misinformation or wrongful manipulation of data presented in a dishonest or superficial manner. 

Comparing pre-vaccine infection rates with current infection rates is ludicrous. We ended last year on severe lockdowns. Of all people, those at a GNR forum should recognize that the US and the world opened up. We are discussing packed concerts in stadiums, after all. 

Still, if one is to compare infection rates, it is dishonest or stupid to do so without also comparing death rates. While vaccines are partially effective in preventing infection, their main goal is to prevent serious ilness and death. The fact that deaths are not rising at the same rate that cases corroborate the hundreds of studies available and fully published that already showed that most of our current vaccines are effective against serious ilness and deaths, even with the delta variant.

Absolutely nothing is being hidden from anybody. Everything is out in the open. Vaccines were very effective at preventing infection, but covid mutated, there are new variants, delta and possibily lambda. It's widely accepted and admitted by the scientific community and governements that this effectiveness is severely reduced against new variants. Still, studies and analysis of countries where vaccination is advanced show that, thankfully, effectiveness against serious disease and death are holding up.  SO FAR.

I say "so far" because unlike what most people seem to think, vaccines are not an individual line of defense, they are a collective line of defense. A large % of vaccinated people makes it really hard for the virus to evolve and mutate. Unvaccinated people, on the other hand, are a fucking playground for mutation. The more of you antivaxxers are out there, the greater that chance of covid evolving into a variant that indeed renders current vaccines and treatments useless. Scientists have been warning us about it. It will happen.

By refusing the vaccine and advocating against it you are helping the virus fight humanity. You are jeopardizing our fight as a species against a virus that is adapting and has killed millions of people. Not thousands, or hundreds of thousands, but millions. The new strains are more agressive and more dangerous. Humanity has no other answer, as of now, except the vaccines. They are our best shot.

So in my book, and I'm sure that a lot of others here agree but are to polite too say it, this makes you - any person who refuses the vaccine or has taken upon themselves to fight the vaccines - a fucking idiot. Your ignorance kills people. Please, try to inform yourself about what's is truly at stake here. If you refuse to do so and insist on replying to well informed posts with multiple scientific sources with lies and memes, than suit yourself, but don't complain afterwards about the kind of replies you will get. Most of us non-idiots can't do anything to hold you accountable for your irresponsible, death causing behaviour - yet, at least. But we reserve the right to treat fucking idiots for what they are.

What percentage needs to be "fully" vaccinated for covid not to mutate? And how often must they get a booster shot?

[B5Redeye]

5 minutes ago, Coma16 said:

What percentage needs to be "fully" vaccinated for covid not to mutate? And how often must they get a booster shot?

In theory….100%. I have a feeling we will be getting booster shots for a very long time.

went and got my test today. Should have results tomorrow but it’s only gonna confirm what I know. I don’t get sick.

 

Feel like shit…temp was 100.7 earlier today but about got it under control. Hopefully just a couple more days of feeling like this.

[nycgunner]

9 minutes ago, Coma16 said:

What percentage needs to be "fully" vaccinated for covid not to mutate? And how often must they get a booster shot?

Washington Post is now reporting 90%, which above the original expectation of 70%
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/delta-variant-most-prevalent/2021/08/08/d1017f0e-f558-11eb-9068-bf463c8c74de_story.html

[SoulMonster]

22 minutes ago, Coma16 said:

What percentage needs to be "fully" vaccinated for covid not to mutate? And how often must they get a booster shot?

Each time a virus has infected a human cell and instructed that cell into synthesizing a new virus particle, there is a chance a mutation will occur and that the newly made virus particle will be slightly different than the virus that infected the cell. So mutations occur as a result of people getting sick. The more people being infected, the more mutations happen. So in other words, if you want to slow down the evolution of the virus, you must reduce the amount of people getting sick. If we could knock down the amount of cases globally, the evolution of new more virulent strains would be a much more sluggish process. It wouldn't stop entirely, though, because there will always be some people who get sick even if 100% of the global population is vaccinated, it would just happen much slower so instead of having new variants every year it make take a decade or a century or a millennium. 

So to answer your question, there is not a percentage of vaccination that will stop the virus from mutating. That is theoretically impossible as long as the virus exists. But we can slow down the rate of mutation (and hence its evolution) by vaccinations and other measures that reduce the infection rates (like social distancing, isolation the sick, etc). 

I think what you are really talking about is herd immunity, and what percentage of vaccination is required for herd immunity to take effect? Herd immunity is just a term for the protection we get when many people are immune to the the disease (through vaccination or having been previously infected). And this effect doesn't come about at a certain percentage of people being immune, it works from the very first person is immune, but the effect gets stronger and stronger the more people are immune. What we want is for the virus to stop spreading (infection number R < 1), and if we say that herd immunity has been achieved when this has occurred, with no other restrictions in place to reduce spread, then for SARS-CoV-2 it is likely higher than 50-60% because it is quite efficient at spreading. 

We don't know how long immunity from vaccination will last, and hence if there will be a need for booster shots, yet. We will know soon, though. Maybe we will need to be vaccinated every year, like for the flu. 

[Deadeose]

Looks like a lot of bands are pulling out of touring this year Stevie nicks just canceled BottleRock due too the high numbers of Covid rates Garth brooks also talking about stopping the tour limp bistkit  out  charle watts not going on tour already has health problems not taking any risks I’m sure we will see more as well I have had Covid the first time didn’t have my second dose now have it again with both shots pretty sick but not as bad as the first time My thought is if I where too go to a show tomorrow I have a vaccination card so I’m gold and right 😞 now I wouldn’t do it but look I’m sure there are many that may or may not know they have it spread it like wild fire makes me think really big events should be held off until things are more under control for the safety of others I get it I want too go see live bands and have tickets for guns in Los Angeles but now thinking I’m going too pass I would feel really bad if people get sick so too a band like Guns N’ Roses have enough money and could of held off and used there time making real new music not reworking a old song and renaming it plus I’m sure they would at least sale out a few shows with out all the Problems Covid is causing people have fun but 3 hours for most likely 2 weeks are more of feeling like total shit or worse and on top of it all paying too possibly get sick .

[SoulMonster]

4 hours ago, Sweersa said:

Thanks!

If it was more dangerous, I'd be more prone to accepting the risks of the vaccine and taking it.

But at 1% (or less) fatality rate, I'll take my chances.

If you are youngish and generally healthy then getting vaccinated is more about doing your bit to prevent others from getting sick, than yourself. There will always be people who can't get vaccinated, won't get vaccinated, or are susceptible to the disease even when vaccinated. It is these vulnerable people we must protect. And the disease gets to them through a connected chain of infections, from one human to another human to another human, etc. I don't want to be a link in this chain of infections. I don't want to be a link that help the disease spread and eventually find someone who dies from it. I don't want to be part of that. I want to be a dead-end to the virus. A cul-de-sac. I am not going to be part of this.

So for me, vaccination is more a social thing than a selfish thing. It is about doing my bit to save others.

[Flayer]

2 hours ago, Pedrolg said:

Every single argument against vaccines in this thread is based on lies and misinformation or wrongful manipulation of data presented in a dishonest or superficial manner. 

Comparing pre-vaccine infection rates with current infection rates is ludicrous. We ended last year on severe lockdowns. Of all people, those at a GNR forum should recognize that the US and the world opened up. We are discussing packed concerts in stadiums, after all. 

Still, if one is to compare infection rates, it is dishonest or stupid to do so without also comparing death rates. While vaccines are partially effective in preventing infection, their main goal is to prevent serious ilness and death. The fact that deaths are not rising at the same rate that cases corroborate the hundreds of studies available and fully published that already showed that most of our current vaccines are effective against serious ilness and deaths, even with the delta variant.

Absolutely nothing is being hidden from anybody. Everything is out in the open. Vaccines were very effective at preventing infection, but covid mutated, there are new variants, delta and possibily lambda. It's widely accepted and admitted by the scientific community and governements that this effectiveness is severely reduced against new variants. Still, studies and analysis of countries where vaccination is advanced show that, thankfully, effectiveness against serious disease and death are holding up.  SO FAR.

I say "so far" because unlike what most people seem to think, vaccines are not an individual line of defense, they are a collective line of defense. A large % of vaccinated people makes it really hard for the virus to evolve and mutate. Unvaccinated people, on the other hand, are a fucking playground for mutation. The more of you antivaxxers are out there, the greater that chance of covid evolving into a variant that indeed renders current vaccines and treatments useless. Scientists have been warning us about it. It will happen.

By refusing the vaccine and advocating against it you are helping the virus fight humanity. You are jeopardizing our fight as a species against a virus that is adapting and has killed millions of people. Not thousands, or hundreds of thousands, but millions. The new strains are more agressive and more dangerous. Humanity has no other answer, as of now, except the vaccines. They are our best shot.

So in my book, and I'm sure that a lot of others here agree but are to polite too say it, this makes you - any person who refuses the vaccine or has taken upon themselves to fight the vaccines - a fucking idiot. Your ignorance kills people. Please, try to inform yourself about what's is truly at stake here. If you refuse to do so and insist on replying to well informed posts with multiple scientific sources with lies and memes, than suit yourself, but don't complain afterwards about the kind of replies you will get. Most of us non-idiots can't do anything to hold you accountable for your irresponsible, death causing behaviour - yet, at least. But we reserve the right to treat fucking idiots for what they are.

And in my book, an idiot is someone who who buys into the narrative of a moderately severe respiratory illness being an apocalyptic threat that demands a state of perpetual emergency. How foolish is it to know how our governments took advantage of the last supposedly existential threat we faced (a handful of terrorist attacks) to permanently assume and abuse new powers, curtail civil rights, and implement a total surveillance state, but think that this time it will be nothing like that - this time they really care and have all our best interests at heart, and they’ll really let things all go back to normal if everyone follows their directions just a little bit longer?

They’re gonna be locking things up and locking things down again for the next twenty years or more, whether 70% of the population takes the vaccine, or 90%, or 99.9%. Restrictions are never going away for more than a few months at a time. Variants are never going to stop arising. You, a believer in science, think that some magic bullet is going to stop the process of evolution in its tracks? Knowing how decades of widespread vaccine use has never put an end to the rise of new strains of seasonal influenza?

That is what I mean when I say “not working as advertised.” They’re selling it as a miracle that’s going to put everything right again - so how dare anyone stand in its way? But there is no miracle. It saves some lives - but it doesn’t stop transmissions. It doesn’t stop variants. This disease will never be eradicated. The state of emergency will never be lifted.

Take the vaccine, don’t take it, up to you, I don’t care. It’s the mandates that are the issue. Liberty versus safety, and I favor liberty. It’s that simple. Living freely is more precious than living a few extra years. We’re all going to die of something one day. You may not share that mindset yourself, but if you can’t at least understand it, I don’t know how you ever have been a fan of the band that made Appetite.

Am I one of those people who worries about Bill Gates injecting everyone with microchips? No. But there is a mind game at play here, of taking everyone’s righteous anger and frustration at the abuses and incompetence of our governments and at the corporations who’ve profiteered and exploited this situation, and redirecting it the powerless ordinary people on the other side, the vaxed against the unvaxed (and before that, the masked and the unmasked).

Who is it that’s really getting away with murder here? Who is it that has really been robbing you for the last year? It’s the people who’ve been making the rules, not the people who’ve been breaking them.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Flayer

[WhazUp]

7 hours ago, Flayer said:

A rate of new infections this August with ~70% of the population vaccinated being around the same as that of last November, when ~0% of the population was vaccinated suggests this simply is not true.

Implying that the new infections are not mostly the people refusing not to get vaccinated?

[SoulMonster]

7 minutes ago, Flayer said:

And in my book, an idiot is someone who who buys into the narrative of a moderately severe respiratory illness being an apocalyptic threat that demands a state of perpetual emergency. How foolish is it to know how our governments took advantage of the last supposedly existential threat we faced (a handful of terrorist attacks) to permanently assume and abuse new powers, curtail civil rights, and implement a total surveillance state, but think that this time it will be nothing like that - this time they really care and have all our best interests at heart, and they’ll really let things all go back to normal if everyone follows their directions just a little bit longer?

They’re gonna be locking things up and locking things down again for the next twenty years or more, whether 70% of the population takes the vaccine, or 90%, or 99.9%. Restrictions are never going away for more than a few months at a time. Variants are never going to stop arising. You, a believer in science, think that some magic bullet is going to stop the process of evolution in its tracks? Knowing how decades of widespread vaccine use has never put an end to the rise of new strains of seasonal influenza?

That is what I mean when I say “not working as advertised.” They’re selling it as a miracle that’s going to put everything right again - so how dare anyone stand in its way? But there is no miracle. It saves some lives - but it doesn’t stop transmissions. It doesn’t stop variants. This disease will never be eradicated. The state of emergency will never be lifted.

- If your politicians decide to continue restrictions when the pandemic is over, then vote for new politicians. That's democracy for you. Throwing tantrums about the elected not doing what you want them to do, is silly. Personally, I have no fear my politicians (I live in Norway) will continue with restrictions when it is not necessary, in fact we are already opening up society now that we have the disease more under control. And why would they? The restrictions cause huge amounts of problems, social and economic. 

- We have stopped viruses from evolving before, in fact we have entirely eradicated a couple of viral diseases (!). This will likely not happen with SARS-CoV-2, though, and as you imply, it is more like the flu virus in that it is more ubiquitous now and has a higher mutation frequency which makes it almost theoretically impossible to eradicate. That being said, evolution speed is to a large extent a result of propagation amount, so if we can knock down the virus it will evolve slower. The more people that are vaccinated, the less virus will be in fluctuation and the less mutations will arise, hence evolution of the virus will be slowed down. In that sense, we are all together on this. No country is an island. If the virus is allowed to propagate freely in some region of the world, it will continue to evolve there and the rest of the world will continuously have to deal with new variants. 

- And the vaccines do slow down transmission.  COVID vaccines slash viral spread – but Delta is an unknown (nature.com)