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I understand that Slash didnt wanted work with him but I never understood why. 

Paul had writing credits for Shadow of Your Love and Back off, Bitch. Two of the best classic GN'R songs. Slash knew that. He could have written a lot of those songs for a possible 95/96 album with him. 

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2 minutes ago, Sosso said:

I understand that Slash didnt wanted work with him but I never understood why. 

Paul had writing credits for Shadow of Your Love and Back off, Bitch. Two of the best classic GN'R songs. Slash knew that. He could have written a lot of those songs for a possible 95/96 album with him. 

My guess is it was Slash's ego, or perhaps he didn't like how Axl introduced him into the mix. Slash didn't want anyone to steal his thunder as the lead guitarist for GN'R. (Can't blame him) Paul Tobias was also probably more in line with Axl's vision for the album too.

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Paul was a good lyricist according to Axl, but he wasn't a good guitar player according to Slash! I'm sure Axl as a great Lyricist knows how to appreciate another good lyricist. As I'm sure Slash as a great guitar player, knows how to tell if he's playing with someone good or not...

How many shows did Paul do with GNR? Considering that do you really think Paul was ever a viable option? I think it showed for itself...

Personally I don't think Gilby is a good guitar player either (Have you seen his live shows? Him playing Sweet Child? A total disaster in my opinion). So the change was inevitable, but I think here Slash should have had the upper hand on picking the guitar player he was gonna play with, because Axl doesn't get in into that dynamic. Slash needed to find a guy who he could play with.

Edited by Propaganda
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Slash basically said he was a guitar player suited to playing pubs, not gnr. If only Slash could have fast-forwarded to 2009 and DJ Ashba🤣 

I don't know, the guy seemed pretty inoffensive to me! looks like a friend called him and he obliged. I mean what musician wouldn't turn up when the rhythm guitar slot is offered to you in GNR in 1993?

We know Chris Shiflett "didn't want" the GNR gig, but EVERY other musician wants the gig.

Anyway, like someone else said... Slash's ego at the time, and Axl just forcing Paul into the spot during a factious time, pretty much sums things up.

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4 minutes ago, Propaganda said:

Paul was a good lyricist according to Axl, but he wasn't a good guitar player according to Slash! I'm sure Axl as a great Lyricist knows how to appreciate another good lyricist. As I'm sure Slash as a great guitar player, knows how to tell if he's playing with someone good or not...

How many shows did Paul do with GNR? Considering that do you really think Paul was ever a viable option? I think it showed for itself...

Personally I don't think Gilby is a good guitar player either (Have you seen his live shows? Him playing Sweet Child? A total disaster in my opinion). So the change was inevitable, but I think here Slash should have had the upper hand on picking the guitar player he was gonna play with, because Axl doesn't get in into that dynamic. Slash needed to find a guy who he could play with.

But was Paul or Gilby hired to play solos? no, they were capable of playing the Izzy role. Not saying they are as good writers as Izzy but his parts could at least be replicated. When I listen to gnr live 99-02 I don't think "oh hell, Paul is all over the place" he sounded fine to me and I'm critical and wasn't a fan of his because I fully went along with Slash's version of events.

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4 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

But was Paul or Gilby hired to play solos? no, they were capable of playing the Izzy role. Not saying they are as good writers as Izzy but his parts could at least be replicated. When I listen to gnr live 99-02 I don't think "oh hell, Paul is all over the place" he sounded fine to me and I'm critical and wasn't a fan of his because I fully went along with Slash's version of events.

To me he "sounded" like his amp wasn't even connected to be honest. Especially in Rio... I'm not saying that was the case, but he was all over the place with gesturing with his guitar in hand, and something seemed off...

Edited by Propaganda
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10 minutes ago, Propaganda said:

To me he "sounded" like his amp wasn't even connected to be honest. Especially in Rio... I'm not saying that was the case, but he was all over the place with gesturing with his guitar in hand, and something seemed off...

He played the slide guitar solo during Rocket Queen. 

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Paul came in to bring back the sleazy and dynamic rhythm guitar that Izzy had. Gilby didn't, and it's very noticeable in any UYI show or even on TSI. 

The "Paul is not a good guitar player" is very much a rhetoric made by Slash to justify his disliking (which was followed by Duff and Matt), IMO. I didn't read Slash's book, so I know nothing about the supposed "attitude" Paul had toward the other members, but it seems like Duff and Matt were still working with him for a time after Slash left.

I can count several things, but just listen to his work on The Blues and Madagascar. Even his side project Mank Rage had some very good rhythm guitars. 

Also, let me say: his guitar in SFTD is actually kinda cool. Yes, the mixing is clearly a knock at Slash with the levels, but I really like the rhythm guitar there. 

20 minutes ago, Propaganda said:

To me he "sounded" like his amp wasn't even connected to be honest. Especially in Rio... I'm not saying that was the case, but he was all over the place with gesturing with his guitar in hand, and something seemed off...

That was bad mixing. Robin's guitar was all over the place too. The three guitar mix were always hard for the band.

7 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

By the way, Art Tavana in his recent GnR book quotes an email he got from Paul, where he basically says that his role has been misunderstood by the fans and that he'd like to tell his side (and talk in general), but he's prevented by his contract.

Very interesting. It's an impressive feat he managed to talk to Paul at all, let alone about this subject. Tavana says he wrote for several media outlets, so I guess he's credible with his credentials. 

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"The public gets a different story from the other guys ­ Slash, Duff, Matt - who have their own agendas. The original intentions between Paul and myself were that Paul was going to help me for as long as it took to get this thing together in whatever capacity that he could help me in. So when he first was brought into this, he was brought in as a writer to work with Slash. At the time those guys never suggested one name. Nobody else. Ever.
Paul was one of the best people we knew who was both available and capable of complimenting Slash’s style. You could bring in a better guitar player than Paul. You could bring in a monster. I tried putting Zakk Wylde with Slash and that didn’t work. It brought out some interesting things in Slash but it was a different approach that ended up being overpowering and didn’t bring out the best in Slash. It brought out some interesting things and it would’ve worked to do some songs. But Paul was only interested in complimenting Slash, laying down a foundation of a riff or something. That would accent or encourage slash's lead playing. Now whether or not Paul was going to be officially on the album or on the tour that really wasn’t an actual consideration at the time. It was in the air as a possibility but Paul was a friend trying to help us and he had a huge respect for Slash. He is and this is the bottom line a good man and that's the reality behind things. That doesn't change what took place with old Guns. I feel that some of the recordings we did in that limited amount of time had some of the best playing that Slash had done at least since Illusions. I was there. I know what I heard and it was pretty exciting.”

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=490

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I never understood why Paul didn’t want to be the touring rhythm guitar player in Nu Guns. Is he allergic to money? Even if he’s not that great of a guitarist I’m sure that spot was his if he wanted it.

In regards to Slash I’m sure he just didn’t want someone foisted onto him without a discussion. That’s just a lack of respect on Axl’s part at the time. 

Edited by Arnuld
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12 minutes ago, Sosso said:

"The public gets a different story from the other guys ­ Slash, Duff, Matt - who have their own agendas. The original intentions between Paul and myself were that Paul was going to help me for as long as it took to get this thing together in whatever capacity that he could help me in. So when he first was brought into this, he was brought in as a writer to work with Slash. At the time those guys never suggested one name. Nobody else. Ever.
Paul was one of the best people we knew who was both available and capable of complimenting Slash’s style. You could bring in a better guitar player than Paul. You could bring in a monster. I tried putting Zakk Wylde with Slash and that didn’t work. It brought out some interesting things in Slash but it was a different approach that ended up being overpowering and didn’t bring out the best in Slash. It brought out some interesting things and it would’ve worked to do some songs. But Paul was only interested in complimenting Slash, laying down a foundation of a riff or something. That would accent or encourage slash's lead playing. Now whether or not Paul was going to be officially on the album or on the tour that really wasn’t an actual consideration at the time. It was in the air as a possibility but Paul was a friend trying to help us and he had a huge respect for Slash. He is and this is the bottom line a good man and that's the reality behind things. That doesn't change what took place with old Guns. I feel that some of the recordings we did in that limited amount of time had some of the best playing that Slash had done at least since Illusions. I was there. I know what I heard and it was pretty exciting.”

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=490

That's some good information! But I still think it wasn't up for Axl to decide who better complemented Slash. I think it was more of Slash responsibility to find someone who complemented him, because he his the guitar player, and Axl isn't. So who better than Slash to find a player that complemented him?!?

Edited by Propaganda
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1 minute ago, Propaganda said:

I think it was more of Slash responsibility to find someone who complemented him, because he his the guitar player, and Axl isn't. So who better than Slash to find a player that complemented him?!?

Fair enough, but if it was up to Slash, he would have kept Gilby and used the Snakepit songs for GNR. Big egos definitely played a major role in this part of the story.

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7 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

Paul came in to bring back the sleazy and dynamic rhythm guitar that Izzy had. Gilby didn't, and it's very noticeable in any UYI show or even on TSI. 

The "Paul is not a good guitar player" is very much a rhetoric made by Slash to justify his disliking (which was followed by Duff and Matt), IMO. I didn't read Slash's book, so I know nothing about the supposed "attitude" Paul had toward the other members, but it seems like Duff and Matt were still working with him for a time after Slash left.

I don't know, I guess the attitude issue had a lot to do with Paul defending Axl and acting like his representative in the studio. Duff didn't have nice things to say about him in his own book either. Matt got into fights with him. He wrote in the leaked book that he tried to bully Paul into quitting when Axl wasn't there, then Paul went and told Axl about it.

It also seems that Tommy (probably Robin, too) didn't rate him, at least at first:

Tommy: I came in around ’98, when the band was still writing the record. It was Paul Tobias and Robin Finck on guitar, Dizzy Reed and Chris Pitman on keys, Josh on drums, and me. Everybody was just slowly starting to bring in ideas. We were set up at Rumbo Records, a big studio out in the middle of nowhere. A funny thing – Captain & Tennille own it. The whole thing looks like a boat.
Anyway, we all just started hammering ideas out. Essentially, it was eight guys collaborating. To be thrown into that kind of environment – eight guys from very different walks of life – was very crazy. I’d never worked in that way, but it was cool. There were guys who’d never ever made a record putting out their ideas. At first, those of us who’d actually made records thought their ideas sucked, but there were also some good ones.

https://www.a-4-d.com/t3488-2009-04-dd-bass-player-tommy-stinson-the-ultimate-replacement-talks-tone-turmoil

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21 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

Very interesting. It's an impressive feat he managed to talk to Paul at all, let alone about this subject. Tavana says he wrote for several media outlets, so I guess he's credible with his credentials. 

Yes, that is Paul's first ever (sort of) public comment. He also said that the fans wouldn't like what he'd have to say anyway, because they prefer to believe "their idols" (Slash, Duff and Matt).

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22 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, that is Paul's first ever (sort of) public comment. He also said that the fans wouldn't like what he'd have to say anyway, because they prefer to believe "their idols" (Slash, Duff and Matt).

Whatever, it’s their band. If slash didn’t want him in that is reason enough

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58 minutes ago, Arnuld said:

I never understood why Paul didn’t want to be the touring rhythm guitar player in Nu Guns. Is he allergic to money? Even if he’s not that great of a guitarist I’m sure that spot was his if he wanted it.

In regards to Slash I’m sure he just didn’t want someone foisted onto him without a discussion. That’s just a lack of respect on Axl’s part at the time. 

55 minutes ago, WhazUp said:

Honestly I think it was just a mish mash of big egos and every single one of them had attitude problems back then lol.  Axl should have talked to the lead guitarist in his band more about consulting and going through together who should be the rhythm guitarist, Slash should have probably come in with a better attitude about it all, Paul apparently rubbed Slash and Matt the wrong way with his attitude( Paul badmouthing Slash led Matt to yell at him, thus Axl's firing of him that day)

And Paul's overdubs on Slash's solo should never have happened without Slash greenlighting how he wanted his own solo to be represented

All I know though is, as a guitar player, nobody is telling me what other guitarist I am going to be playing with or writing with, without my own input on the matter

It seems Paul was never interested in touring and generally in having a "visible" role in the band. In interviews before Slash left, Matt said that there was a guitarist (meaning Paul), but they didn't know if he would tour with the band, and Axl was also acting as the rhythm guitarist at that time. Duff in his book presented a slightly different version than Slash's version in his own book: he said that Axl  told them to try Paul out - he didn't tell them "here is the new guitarist."

So I believe Axl for the part that he didn't try to force Paul to the band as a full member, but he brought him there as a writer. But that concept, which had to do with the "fluid" perception of the band Axl developed after the AFD band was no more (that there was the "core" of him, Slash and Duff, and then a revolving door of "collaborators") wasn't understandable and acceptable by Slash and Duff.

I think Axl's mistake was that he brought Paul into the studio to write with the band instead of working with him on his own (like he had done with West Arkeen) and then present the ideas to the band. He would later work with Paul on his own anyway.

Edited by Blackstar
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