how could Sorum get fired if he was a permanent member?

[whatashame]

Sorry if this comes out as a stupid question, but it just dawned on me this morning. Sorum said he was made an equal and permanent member of the band in 1991, just like Izzy or Adler were. He was no Gilby, no Ashba, no hired hand. So how could he get fired in 1997? Adler was voted out, Izzy resigned. Was there a voting and if so, who voted? Duff and Slash and Axl? Or it's like, Axl's vote counts as a hundred votes to Matt's one

[Blackstar]

I don't recall where/if he said that he was an equal member like Izzy or Adler, but he wasn't made a partner in the band, so he was a "hired hand".

[PatrickS77]

3 minutes ago, whatashame said:

Sorry if this comes out as a stupid question, but it just dawned on me this morning. Sorum said he was made an equal and permanent member of the band in 1991, just like Izzy or Adler were. He was no Gilby, no Ashba, no hired hand. So how could he get fired in 1997? Adler was voted out, Izzy resigned. Was there a voting and if so, who voted? Duff and Slash and Axl? Or it's like, Axl's vote counts as a hundred votes to Matt's one

Well, most likely he just wasn't.

[adamsapple]

3 minutes ago, whatashame said:

Axl's vote counts as a hundred votes to Matt's one

This.

[Sosso]

You have to consider two things in Regards of GN'R: The partnership (Slash, Duff and Axl) and the band. Being a band member doesnt mean anything unless you are a part of the partnership. 

[Tom2112]

8 minutes ago, whatashame said:

Sorry if this comes out as a stupid question, but it just dawned on me this morning. Sorum said he was made an equal and permanent member of the band in 1991, just like Izzy or Adler were. He was no Gilby, no Ashba, no hired hand. So how could he get fired in 1997? Adler was voted out, Izzy resigned. Was there a voting and if so, who voted? Duff and Slash and Axl? Or it's like, Axl's vote counts as a hundred votes to Matt's one

He was a band member but his permanency was subject to change. He had a rolling contract I'd assume. Definitely didn't have voting rights, his opinion may have been asked but he was absolutely not an equal member. 

[James Bond]

I think in the case of Guns N' Roses, being a "band member" as opposed to a "touring member" has just been part of the status that they (Axl, Slash, and Duff) give their musicians. Isn't there a quote somewhere where Axl says even Teddy, Tracey, and Roberta were considered "members" on the UYI tour?

But at the end of the day, we know who the partnership is and whose votes matter. One person probably more than others.

[invisible_rose]

2 hours ago, Sosso said:

You have to consider two things in Regards of GN'R: The partnership (Slash, Duff and Axl) and the band. Being a band member doesnt mean anything unless you are a part of the partnership. 

Yeah, this. Essentially, there's a band and then a legally incorporated business. He can be part of the band and kicked out by members - probably part of the T&Cs of his band contract. But I'm sure as shit he didn't have any legal ownership of Guns N Roses the business/brand etc.

[Blackstar]

Also when Matt was fired Slash was no longer in the band, so the only members who typically had a voting right were Axl and Duff.

But, at that point, that wasn't how things went down. Axl would say "you're fired" to someone and after a few days they'd usually be "rehired" or Axl would just forget all about it. It seems that happened quite often, and probably almost everyone who has ever been employed by Axl has been fired and rehired at least once. So Matt had been fired and rehired at least a couple of times before that. On that particular day, from what he said, he went there with the purpose to make a fuss. So Axl fired him, the entourage waited in case he would rehire him, but this time he didn't and Matt didn't go back either.

[Pele]

The mid to late 90's got really complex about who owned what and who was in charge.

A very brief summary of how I think things went down:

• It was agreed that if Axl left Guns n Roses (the company with Axl/Duff/Slash), he had the right to create a band called Guns n' Roses and release music under that trademark.
• Axl exorcised that right and left the company (which then became a Slash/Duff company).
• Axl created a band called Guns n' Roses and Slash and Duff joined as band members, and left shortly afterwards.  
• Matt was never in the company.  The band as he knew it ceased to exist when Axl left and took the trademark/license with him.  Matt was a band member in the original Guns n Roses, and was a paid employee in Axl's new band (who were permitted to release music under the Guns n Roses name).  At that point, Axl didn't need any permission to remove him from the band, and there were no issues regarding the company.
• Slash/Duff remained owners of the original Guns n Roses (hence the permissions/collaborations needed to release historical compositions as part of live albums)
• Axl went forward with a new band that was permitted to release music under the trademark of Guns n Roses.

At this point, the band weren't working together and I doubt anyone fully expected an Axl/Slash/Duff/Gilby/Matt release.

I've mentioned in other threads, I believe Rose does very little  when it comes to songwriting.  He's capable of brilliant work, but it's very sporadic and very rare.  Even in the early days, the music was written by the band and the lyrics were supplied by Rose (sometimes/often with help from the band, or Weber/Arkeen/Huge etc).  The real Axl Rose songs are November Rain, Estranged, Breakdown, Shotgun Blues and This I Love.  His standard working method is to hire musicians to create demos and his aim is to complete them with lyrics.

So whilst all of this was going on, a collective of Paul Huge, Krys Baratto, Sid Riggs and Dizzy Reed were working on music for Axl, which potentially became the origins of Chinese Democracy. 

The stuff they worked on was offered as Axl's contribution in 1996, however the album failed to materialize.

He added Chris Vrenna, Robin Fink , Chris Pittman, Josh Freese at varying times and OMG was created.  He added further musicians all of whom continued to submit instrumentals, and that's where D-Tune, Curly Shuffle, Devios Bastard etc etc all come from.

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Pele

[ShadowOfTheWave]

When Slash announced to the press that Matt was fired in the summer of 1997 the GNR camp denied it immediately (from MTV news articles that are no longer available on the website) and he wasn't replaced until 1998, so I think Axl would have been open to him coming back if he had tried to reconcile, even Paul tried to convince him to stay. So yeah, Axl technically said he was fired but I don't think Axl meant it 100%, Matt has even said Axl fired him multiple times. I think Matt, like Duff, just didn't have a lot of interest in the new lineup and didn't fight to keep his position.

[Blackstar]

6 minutes ago, ShadowOfTheWave said:

When Slash announced to the press that Matt was fired in the summer of 1997 the GNR camp denied it immediately (from MTV news articles that are no longer available on the website) and he wasn't replaced until 1998, so I think Axl would have been open to him coming back if he had tried to reconcile, even Paul tried to convince him to stay. So yeah, Axl technically said he was fired but I don't think Axl meant it 100%, Matt has even said Axl fired him multiple times. I think Matt, like Duff, just didn't have a lot of interest in the new lineup and didn't fight to keep his position.

Matt was fired in April 1997 and in May Chris Vrenna was rehearsing with the band, so there was a replacement. But yes, Matt's firing hadn't been set in stone yet. Probably if Matt had apologized or something he would have been hired back, but he didn't.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Blackstar

[Blackstar]

The MTV News articles from April and May 1997. Dave Abbruzzese was also in the picture by May - Matt himself confirmed that:

https://www.a-4-d.com/t2993-1997-04-18-mtv-news-days-of-guns-n-roses

https://www.a-4-d.com/t4417-1997-05-22-mtv-news-guns-go-clink

Also see for all the details about Matt's firing:

https://www.a-4-d.com/t5024-20-november-1996-august-1997-robin-replaces-slash-but-matt-and-duff-quits#20309

[ShadowOfTheWave]

17 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

The MTV News articles from April and May 1997. Dave Abbruzzese was also in the picture by May - Matt himself confirmed that:

https://www.a-4-d.com/t2993-1997-04-18-mtv-news-days-of-guns-n-roses

https://www.a-4-d.com/t4417-1997-05-22-mtv-news-guns-go-clink

Also see for all the details about Matt's firing:

https://www.a-4-d.com/t5024-20-november-1996-august-1997-robin-replaces-slash-but-matt-and-duff-quits#20309

Huh. I remember an article from around June 1997 where Slash nonchalantly said he heard Matt had been fired recently and then the article said GNR management vehemently denied it. I may be confused, maybe it wasn't MTV, I looked at it in like 2010 or so.

[darkside259]

35 minutes ago, Pele said:

The real Axl Rose songs are November Rain, Estranged, Breakdown, Shotgun Blues and This I Love.

Axl writte and composed  more songs than those

[Pele]

4 minutes ago, darkside259 said:

Axl writte and composed  more songs than those

He did, and was involved in many more, and likely supplied lyrics (part or in full) to most GNR songs.

I think he came up with the Madagascar organ chords and I think he may have composed the Thyme instrumental (just based on how it sounds).

My point was, his usual way of working is to add lyrics to instrumentals, and whilst the public thought GNR was Axl/Slash/Duff/Matt etc - he had a team of people working on ideas for him (rather than Slash/Izzy etc)

This carried on, with various musicians, and is how Chinese Democracy was put together (with the exception of 'This I Love' which was from the early 90s)

Edited August 25, 2021 by Pele

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, Pele said:

The mid to late 90's got really complex about who owned what and who was in charge.

A very brief summary of how I think things went down:

• It was agreed that if Axl left Guns n Roses (the company with Axl/Duff/Slash), he had the right to create a band called Guns n' Roses and release music under that trademark.
• Axl exorcised that right and left the company (which then became a Slash/Duff company).
• Axl created a band called Guns n' Roses and Slash and Duff joined as band members, and left shortly afterwards.  
• Matt was never in the company.  The band as he knew it ceased to exist when Axl left and took the trademark/license with him.  Matt was a band member in the original Guns n Roses, and was a paid employee in Axl's new band (who were permitted to release music under the Guns n Roses name).  At that point, Axl didn't need any permission to remove him from the band, and there were no issues regarding the company.
• Slash/Duff remained owners of the original Guns n Roses (hence the permissions/collaborations needed to release historical compositions as part of live albums)
• Axl went forward with a new band that was permitted to release music under the trademark of Guns n Roses.

At this point, the band weren't working together and I doubt anyone fully expected an Axl/Slash/Duff/Gilby/Matt release.

Some of your points are not accurate.

The partnership issue is very complicated because of our lack of adequate information and knowledge of the legislation. The court documents from the Slash/Duff Vs. Axl and Greatest Hits lawsuits would help a lot to have a clearer picture, but unfortunately it seems the Slash/Duff ones have been lost for ever (only the initial Slash/Duff lawsuit document and the copy of the 1992 partnership agreement, which had circulated online, exist).

Slash and Duff never joined Axl's new partnership which he announced he would create with his resignation letter in 1995. They remained members of the band, until they quit, under an escrow/"trial" contract. This is certain for Slash, but very likely for Duff, too, since they signed the same contracts. So they never became either partners or employees in Axl's new band. It was a transitional period where both the old partnership and Axl's new one, where he owned the name, were in place. But, in fact, Axl's new partnership never became effective as such, since no one else joined it as a partner. Matt, yes, was probably a paid employee in Axl's new band at that point.

In 1998 Axl signed a new recording agreement with Geffen, with which Slash and Duff were deemed as "leaving members," so it was then that they were officially out of GnR as far as the label was concerned. In the same year Axl founded Black Frog, which was the NuGnR entity. So NuGnR started in 1998.

The old 1992 partnership agreement regulated how the revenues, costs, assets and stakes in the various companies (for touring, merch, etc.) owned by the GN'R partnership would split. Two of those companies, the names of which are known from press reports, appear to have been dissolved in 2001 (I guess it takes a lot of red tape until a company is deemed typically dissolved), and it was likely the same with other potential companies owned by the partnership (you need to know the name of the company in order to search the databases). But there was at least one company, the most important one, in which all three Axl, Slash and Duff remained shareholders: the publishing company, Guns N' Roses Music, Inc., which controlled the rights to the back catalogue. That led to long litigation between Slash/Duff and Axl over licensing etc., with Slash and Duff claiming that Axl didn't have any rights to Guns N' Roses Music, Inc., since he had quit the old partnership.

The GnR trademarks and service marks remained registered to the 1992 partnership. During the NuGnR years, Axl renewed them on behalf of the old partnership, not under a new partnership or Black Frog, maybe because that wouldn't be necessary to do under the trademark laws. However, that proved to be a problem in some cases, like in the GH lawsuit where one of the reason Axl/Slash/Duff lost was because they sued as individuals for trademark infringement and not as the GnR partnership.

[lost un the jungle]

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Some of your points are not accurate.

The partnership issue is very complicated because of our lack of adequate information and knowledge of the legislation. The court documents from the Slash/Duff Vs. Axl and Greatest Hits lawsuits would help a lot to have a clearer picture, but unfortunately it seems the Slash/Duff ones have been lost for ever (only the initial Slash/Duff lawsuit document and the copy of the 1992 partnership agreement, which had circulated online, exist).

Slash and Duff never joined Axl's new partnership which he announced he would create with his resignation letter in 1995. They remained members of the band, until they quit, under an escrow/"trial" contract. This is certain for Slash, but very likely for Duff, too, since they signed the same contracts. So they never became either partners or employees in Axl's new band. It was a transitional period where both the old partnership and Axl's new one, where he owned the name, were in place. But, in fact, Axl's new partnership never became effective as such, since no one else joined it as a partner. Matt, yes, was probably a paid employee in Axl's new band at that point.

In 1998 Axl signed a new recording agreement with Geffen, with which Slash and Duff were deemed as "leaving members," so it was then that they were officially out of GnR as far as the label was concerned. In the same year Axl founded Black Frog, which was the NuGnR entity. So NuGnR started in 1998.

The old 1992 partnership agreement regulated how the revenues, costs, assets and stakes in the various companies (for touring, merch, etc.) owned by the GN'R partnership would split. Two of those companies, the names of which are known from press reports, appear to have been dissolved in 2001 (I guess it takes a lot of red tape until a company is deemed typically dissolved), and it was likely the same with other potential companies owned by the partnership (you need to know the name of the company in order to search the databases). But there was at least one company, the most important one, in which all three Axl, Slash and Duff remained shareholders: the publishing company, Guns N' Roses Music, Inc., which controlled the rights to the back catalogue. That led to long litigation between Slash/Duff and Axl over licensing etc., with Slash and Duff claiming that Axl didn't have any rights to Guns N' Roses Music, Inc., since he had quit the old partnership.

The GnR trademarks and service marks remained registered to the 1992 partnership. During the NuGnR years, Axl renewed them on behalf of the old partnership, not under a new partnership or Black Frog, maybe because that wouldn't be necessary to do under the trademark laws. However, that proved to be a problem in some cases, like in the GH lawsuit where one of the reason Axl/Slash/Duff lost was because they sued as individuals for trademark infringement and not as the GnR partnership.

The timeline after 1993 is critical to understand why GNR split. It was not only "Slash doesn't like industrial rock or Paul Huge", there was a whole mess in terms of legal issues and Axl taking control over the band. Matt was a full member but clearly not with the same rights than Duff, Axl or Slash. To put it in simple terms, he was less than Slash/Duff but more than Fortus, Frank and all the hired guns that were in the band. He also must be receiving royalties for UYI tracks, so this is why guys nor him, Izzy or Adler were in a rush to get a new job, they're just swimming in cash.

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, lost un the jungle said:

The timeline after 1993 is critical to understand why GNR split. It was not only "Slash doesn't like industrial rock or Paul Huge", there was a whole mess in terms of legal issues and Axl taking control over the band. Matt was a full member but clearly not with the same rights than Duff, Axl or Slash. To put it in simple terms, he was less than Slash/Duff but more than Fortus, Frank and all the hired guns that were in the band. He also must be receiving royalties for UYI tracks, so this is why guys nor him, Izzy or Adler were in a rush to get a new job, they're just swimming in cash.

Matt was a full member in GnR in the sense that he was not just a touring drummer like he had been in the Cult (that was the meaning of the quotes referenced in the OP), but he was a hired member just like the NuGnR members were - and the NuGnR members, at least those who had been in the lineups before 2009, were not just touring members (most of them had credits and royalties off CD) and Axl didn't want them to be perceived that way either. Matt got a small slice of the UYI royalties, but that's a common thing bands do for members that don't have writing credits, because otherwise they'd get peanuts (he wrote in his book something about getting screwed out of those royalties, though).

But currently it's true that Richard, Frank, etc, seem to be lower on the totem pole than Matt was, mostly because of the way the band is being marketed (with the focus being on the "big three"). And if they're not on the album, this will be more than a perception.

[mystery]

The visual of Axl firing and rehiring people George Steinbrenner style is amusing to me. In regards to Matt, I remember the story of him getting heated with Paul Huge talking about Slash and probably disliking the guy, but was that it in tems of why he left?

[GoForJMark]

"fuck you Yoko" that's it

[Bitchisback]

[Blackstar]

3 hours ago, mystery said:

The visual of Axl firing and rehiring people George Steinbrenner style is amusing to me. In regards to Matt, I remember the story of him getting heated with Paul Huge talking about Slash and probably disliking the guy, but was that it in tems of why he left?

There are some really funny stories about Axl firing and rehiring people. According to Craig Duswalt, who was Axl's assistant and also run the teleprompter for a period, Axl once got confused and started singing the same verse twice, then saw the correct verse on the teleprompter and got more confused, so he got pissed off at Duswalt thinking it was his fault and fired him on the spot; then, after the show, he realised it was his own fault and apologised. Another time he fired his other assistant, Robert, again during a show, and looked really pissed off, but after the show he forgot all about it and was asking where Robert was. But, although Axl often "fired" people like that, he hasn't really fired as many people as one might think. He has fired managers, but didn't fire any of the NuGnR members and he worked with the same crew members for years. Sean Beavan said he had made a plan to reduce costs for the production of CD, which included firing "redundant" personnel, but Axl refused to fire anyone because he said they'd worked with him for years and had families.

About Matt: Yes, that's more or less what he said about how he left (it's in the a-4-d link posted above). He has written a longer story of it in his book.

[Free Bird]

On 8/25/2021 at 12:00 PM, adamsapple said:

This.

I thought it was more like 99 votes 

[HollyWoodRose84]

He was an “additional musician.”