Did we back the wrong horse in our support/belief of Axl over Slash?

[BangoSkank]

9 minutes ago, Tom-Ass said:

Slash, Duff and Izzy all quit because of Axl... 

Who all had mountains of issues that they were dealing with. Slash was literally dead for a few minutes on the Illusion tour.

[Free Bird]

2 minutes ago, BangoSkank said:

Who all had mountains of issues that they were dealing with. Slash was literally dead for a few minutes on the Illusion tour.

Yet he was functioning and no show was canceled because of Slash or Duff.

Of course it wasn't all Axl but there's a reason people blame him for the break up. 

[Zeppelin]

3 hours ago, Ralphelmo said:

Disagree, it's overproduced, overlayered and even considering some beautiful guitar work on certain tracks I find this album really pretentious, there's not that much of quality on it. Axl should've released it under his own name as a solo project, it would've been much better received. GNR was always about rock & roll, CD contains 0% of rock and roll.  

Then you have Slash's output, which is 100% rock and roll, and about as flaccid as it gets.

Fact is that they both wrote together and that's when they were at their peak. Without each other, they're writing songs that don't even come close. And slapping Slash over Silkworms isn't going to bring that back. At the end of the day, I think fans would be most pleased with any organic effort to release new, original music. It may not be Appetite, but even the most cynical fans could appreciate the effort. I'll give Slash credit for being prolific, but 99% of his material is forgotten as soon as it comes out. Some will say that they love it, and that's fine. Some say they love Absurd. But really, these songs will be forgotten in the years to come, and people will just flock back to AFD or UYI to continue to get what they want out of these two.

[Mikey Whipwreck]

Don't really get the original post's premise.

Slash has been very active since leaving Guns. Despite his prolific catalog he rarely (if ever) reached the heights he did 1987-1991. He mostly churns out competent but unremarkable hard rock and rarely strays from his comfort zone. Contraband and the self-titled solo were very good albums, the rest of his output is mostly forgettable, in no small part due to his questionable choices of singers. 

Axl had a more ambitious plan to expand his sound and experiment with different genres but got cold feet because he can't handle the criticism. In the end I thought CD was a good but pretty straightforward arena rock album, not that a big departure from UYI aside from incorporating another decade's worth of musical influences and a zillion layers of instrumentation. Now he's creatively spent and has zero motivation to write and record new songs.

So I'm not sure what difference "betting on" Axl or Slash would have made. Their careers would've turned out the same. What's obvious they and their fans would've been better off if they could've worked out their differences in 1995. Think about it. They left hundreds of millions of dollars on the table because they couldn't agree on a rhythm guitarist and a creative direction. Why they couldn't just agree to do a double album with 12 Slash hard rock songs and 12 Axl industrial/trip hop songs and piano ballads, we'll never know. 

On a side note they both need Izzy more than they'll ever admit. 

[DurhamGirl]

There are a lot of 'shoulds' in this thread.  Also I dont understand this 'backing' thing one would think we were discussing race horses.  

[pugachev]

I think everyone's best work is behind them back in Guns N' Roses' heyday. That said, Slash just being far more active means he's going to strike gold a lot more than Axl was ever going to with his one album.

Just a few of my favorites of his solo stuff just off the top of my head. Obviously, the actual list is probably double or triple this. Axl has maybe a 4 songs I like off of CD.  Slash's solo stuff has a lot of generic filler in them, but he always has at least a few quality songs on every album. That's a victory in my book when the alternative is to put out absolutely nothing.

Always on the Run
Back and Forth Again
Beggars and Hangers on
Good To Be Alive
Back to the Moment
Serial Killer
Shine
Slither
Loving the Alien
Fall to Pieces
Ghost
Crucify the Dead
Back from Cali
By the Sword
Starlight
Anastasia
Not for Me
Wicked Stone
Battleground
The One You Loved Is Gone
The Great Pretender
Fill My World

[RussTCB]

34 minutes ago, DurhamGirl said:

There are a lot of 'shoulds' in this thread.  Also I dont understand this 'backing' thing one would think we were discussing race horses.  

Horse racing is the entire point of the analogy. 

[-W.A.R-]

Well Slash had the freedom to do what what he wanted whereas Axl stubbornly stuck with the burden of the GNR name.

[Blackstar]

2 hours ago, Mikey Whipwreck said:

So I'm not sure what difference "betting on" Axl or Slash would have made. Their careers would've turned out the same. What's obvious they and their fans would've been better off if they could've worked out their differences in 1995. Think about it. They left hundreds of millions of dollars on the table because they couldn't agree on a rhythm guitarist and a creative direction. Why they couldn't just agree to do a double album with 12 Slash hard rock songs and 12 Axl industrial/trip hop songs and piano ballads, we'll never know. 

On a side note they both need Izzy more than they'll ever admit. 

Yes, the "Illusions way" (i.e. three -two, in that case - solo albums in one, as Axl had put it) could have been the way out in the mid-90s, if musical differences was the sole or main issue. But the fact that they weren't able to do it suggests that the issues and differences between them were much deeper and complicated than that.

[Mikey Whipwreck]

32 minutes ago, -W.A.R- said:

Well Slash had the freedom to do what what he wanted whereas Axl stubbornly stuck with the burden of the GNR name.

Axl definitely existed in a prison of his own creation. Refusing to give up the name but unable to take the criticism that came with the decision. 

Thanks to the Zutaut locker we know he had an album that was basically done in 2000. That version of CD with Oh My God, Atlas, State of Grace and Perhaps in place of Shackler's, If The World, Sorry and This I Love would have been a very good album in the context of 2000/2001 rock(opinions may vary). If he'd released that then the follow up with Better, Sorry, ITW, Shackler's, Elvis/Soul Monster, Oklahoma, Quick Song and whatever else his reputation would be much better, even if the experiment failed. Because the reunion was always going to be there.

As it stands he wasted a lot of time, money and talent (his own and others) and now he's creatively burned out. Is what it is.

[chester]

I doubt it. Chinese Democracy is better than any of Slash’s solo work. VR had a few good songs but there again, Slash was working with a top notch vocalist. So, maybe he was the one needing a crutch? 

[AlterL]

20 minutes ago, chester said:

I doubt it. Chinese Democracy is better than any of Slash’s solo work. VR had a few good songs but there again, Slash was working with a top notch vocalist. So, maybe he was the one needing a crutch? 

dude, I like CD Better than any Slash work post Guns, in fact is my favorite GN'R Album, but Axl did had the help of a lot of people, Bumblefoot, Buckethead, Finck, Stinson, Freese.... The dude was working with really talented individuals.

[chester]

1 hour ago, AlterL said:

dude, I like CD Better than any Slash work post Guns, in fact is my favorite GN'R Album, but Axl did had the help of a lot of people, Bumblefoot, Buckethead, Finck, Stinson, Freese.... The dude was working with really talented individuals.

Yeah, we agree. 
 

[Sweersa]

1 hour ago, Mikey Whipwreck said:

Axl definitely existed in a prison of his own creation. Refusing to give up the name but unable to take the criticism that came with the decision. 

Thanks to the Zutaut locker we know he had an album that was basically done in 2000. That version of CD with Oh My God, Atlas, State of Grace and Perhaps in place of Shackler's, If The World, Sorry and This I Love would have been a very good album in the context of 2000/2001 rock(opinions may vary). If he'd released that then the follow up with Better, Sorry, ITW, Shackler's, Elvis/Soul Monster, Oklahoma, Quick Song and whatever else his reputation would be much better, even if the experiment failed. Because the reunion was always going to be there.

As it stands he wasted a lot of time, money and talent (his own and others) and now he's creatively burned out. Is what it is.

I've said this many times, but having at least 2 albums released from the CD era would have been ideal to have closed that era out pre reunion. 

[Free Bird]

6 hours ago, pugachev said:

I think everyone's best work is behind them back in Guns N' Roses' heyday. That said, Slash just being far more active means he's going to strike gold a lot more than Axl was ever going to with his one album.

Just a few of my favorites of his solo stuff just off the top of my head. Obviously, the actual list is probably double or triple this. Axl has maybe a 4 songs I like off of CD.  Slash's solo stuff has a lot of generic filler in them, but he always has at least a few quality songs on every album. That's a victory in my book when the alternative is to put out absolutely nothing.

Always on the Run
Back and Forth Again
Beggars and Hangers on
Good To Be Alive
Back to the Moment
Serial Killer
Shine
Slither
Loving the Alien
Fall to Pieces
Ghost
Crucify the Dead
Back from Cali
By the Sword
Starlight
Anastasia
Not for Me
Wicked Stone
Battleground
The One You Loved Is Gone
The Great Pretender
Fill My World

Best post of the thread.

I want to add that I don't think we should see it as a race whatsoever because nobody should be betting on either of them. It's about what direction you like. And even though Slash has a lot wasted potential on his releases due to the lack of proper songwriting around great riffs and solos or due to the poor choice of vocalists, he always comes up with a few awesome tunes.

Axl's only (full length) release has a handful of good songs that I personally enjoy, despite of buying the album the day it was released and given it more chances than I had to.

But like I said before, it's all about tastes. If somebody likes one song of CD and none of Slash's over 100 songs than for him CD is the better work.

End of discussion.

I won't boycott any work of an artist just because he's not Slash or Axl. I like what I like and that's the only criterion I need in regards of music.

[DK6]

17 hours ago, janrichmond said:

My thinking is that Axl needs Slash way more than Slash needs Axl. If Slash wasn't there GnR would not fill stadiums. Slash has continued to release music since leaving GnR in '94 and tour those albums. Axl hasn't.

Axl's vocals are what made me a fan back in the 80's but Slash is what drew me back when they reunited. 

If Axl wasn't there GnR would not fill stadiums either.

[SOH]

6 hours ago, Mikey Whipwreck said:

 

As it stands he wasted a lot of time, money and talent (his own and others) and now he's creatively burned out. Is what it is.

It could be creative burnout, or it could be a lack of antagonists in his life in the past 13 years since he finished the writing for Chinese Democracy songs. That's always been his main motivation. I can't come up with much, his life seems pretty comfortable. Diss tracks about Irving Azoff and the Eagles of Death Metal? Maybe throw in something about Madison who he chased off of this board...Bon Jovi for continuing to talk shit about him...end it with a ballad in tribute to Dexter and you might have an EP...

Edited December 7, 2021 by SOH

[megaguns1982]

I remember back when the End Of Days soundtrack first came out and being excited as it really felt like the album was coming any day, fast forward 9 years and we got CD and I sort of started realising that Axl really isn’t much without the rest of them but still enjoyed it for what it is.
I honesty didn’t pay any attention to what slash was doing other than seeing him on tv doing the Michael Jackson thing in 2001 and the first VR album. I didn’t have internet at home until around 2003 so all my music news came from magazines and friends so I wasn’t really in the loop.

We are lucky for the music we got in their classic era and it’s time they just put this thing to bed IMO

[janrichmond]

3 hours ago, DK6 said:

If Axl wasn't there GnR would not fill stadiums either.

If Axl wasn't there it wouldn't be GnR anyway

[allwaystired]

Probably what we're dealing with here alongside the idea of 'backing' is that most of us have just become insanely disappointed with Axl over the years. All that promise, potential and.......nothing.

I think, as a fan, you'd be hard pushed to be anything other than disappointed really. Given what was going on in 2001 I'd never have dreamed we'd be heading into 2022 with so little being achieved (taking aside the reunion of course....which was obviously fantastic, but has now also settled into a rut). 

I think a lot of us bought in totally to what Axl was saying in the early 2000s and his desire to be a forward thinking artist, release lots of interesting albums, etc etc. For pretty much none of it to happen, and for the focus to become virtually entirely nostalgia......that's going to hurt! 

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, allwaystired said:

Probably what we're dealing with here alongside the idea of 'backing' is that most of us have just become insanely disappointed with Axl over the years. All that promise, potential and.......nothing.

I think, as a fan, you'd be hard pushed to be anything other than disappointed really. Given what was going on in 2001 I'd never have dreamed we'd be heading into 2022 with so little being achieved (taking aside the reunion of course....which was obviously fantastic, but has now also settled into a rut). 

I think a lot of us bought in totally to what Axl was saying in the early 2000s and his desire to be a forward thinking artist, release lots of interesting albums, etc etc. For pretty much none of it to happen, and for the focus to become virtually entirely nostalgia......that's going to hurt! 

Shouldn't that hurt have ended about 10 years ago? How long are fans going to go round being hurt? The reunion happened 5 years ago, there are many new things to be hurt by now. 

Or, you know, just don't take it so seriously. It is just music. 

[allwaystired]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

Shouldn't that hurt have ended about 10 years ago? How long are fans going to go round being hurt? The reunion happened 5 years ago, there are many new things to be hurt by now. 

Or, you know, just don't take it so seriously. It is just music. 

Yeah it's 'just music', but as this is a GNR forum, and we all are lifelong fans I think it's fair to take it seriously in the realms of fandom! 

I imagine none of us are gong through life with our heads hung low because of GNR, but I think it's perfectly normal to have feelings of disappointment about how it all played out. 

I find the phrase "it's just music" strange anyway. Of course it is But this IS a music forum and people that visit here probably do take music seriously, otherwise they wouldn't be here. If we're going to apply the 'it's only music, there are bigger and more important things going on in the world' then the board might as well shut down and turn into a place to discuss serious world events! 

 

[SoulMonster]

It was just the notion of being hurt 10 years after that prompted the response. Music is great, but not something to be hurt over. 

[Tom2112]

16 hours ago, Mikey Whipwreck said:

Axl definitely existed in a prison of his own creation. Refusing to give up the name but unable to take the criticism that came with the decision. 

Thanks to the Zutaut locker we know he had an album that was basically done in 2000. That version of CD with Oh My God, Atlas, State of Grace and Perhaps in place of Shackler's, If The World, Sorry and This I Love would have been a very good album in the context of 2000/2001 rock(opinions may vary). If he'd released that then the follow up with Better, Sorry, ITW, Shackler's, Elvis/Soul Monster, Oklahoma, Quick Song and whatever else his reputation would be much better, even if the experiment failed. Because the reunion was always going to be there.

As it stands he wasted a lot of time, money and talent (his own and others) and now he's creatively burned out. Is what it is.

All true. If he had released that album mixed and mastered in 2000 it probably would have been accepted. If he had followed up in 2006/08 with a record with Better etc. people would have said "it's not GNR" but the quality would be hard to fight with.

Personally, I'm happy the album didn't come out in 2000 because the final versions are far superior for my taste. The demo of Chinese is not as good as the finished version largely due to Axl adding all those Bumble guitars, which really kicked it into gear.

[Tom2112]

7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

It was just the notion of being hurt 10 years after that prompted the response. Music is great, but not something to be hurt over. 

It really depends on your relationship to music. I mean as a fan, you shouldn't be hurt by band decisions... but then you look at football fans and they literally cry when their favourite team loses. Why can't you feel the same types of passion for music?