Did we back the wrong horse in our support/belief of Axl over Slash?

[SoulMonster]

24 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

It really depends on your relationship to music. I mean as a fan, you shouldn't be hurt by band decisions... but then you look at football fans and they literally cry when their favourite team loses. Why can't you feel the same types of passion for music?

Oh I do, it just doesn't last for years. But that is probably more connected to personality than anything else. But yeah, I cry

[Tom2112]

14 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Oh I do, it just doesn't last for years. But that is probably more connected to personality than anything else. But yeah, I cry

Oh yeah I get you, ten years later the hurt of that shoddy album cover should have subsided😄 

I think with GNR and Metallica and those early bands that got you into music, there's an extra layer of expectations. Some people kinda move away from caring so much and others end up on band forums😄

[SOH]

52 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

All true. If he had released that album mixed and mastered in 2000 it probably would have been accepted. If he had followed up in 2006/08 with a record with Better etc. people would have said "it's not GNR" but the quality would be hard to fight with.

Personally, I'm happy the album didn't come out in 2000 because the final versions are far superior for my taste. The demo of Chinese is not as good as the finished version largely due to Axl adding all those Bumble guitars, which really kicked it into gear.

I think we're talking a completely different series of events if Chinese Democracy was released in 2000, or even 2002 after the VMAs and before the tour. Buckethead and Finck don't get sick of waiting to release material and leave, leading to more followup material faster, etc.

[allwaystired]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

It was just the notion of being hurt 10 years after that prompted the response. Music is great, but not something to be hurt over. 

I'd say it's been incredibly important to me throughout my life. Made me who I am really.....so yeah, it hurts and pisses me off when bands whose ethos I used to admire lose that aspect of themselves. Especially if that ethos was quite formative. 

I think it's a good thing people are passionate about music, whatever that music might be. With that passion might come people feeling hurt. And that's totally fine. 

[chester]

Axl could have went out of his way to hire “name” guitar players at the time like Zakk Wylde, Dave Navarro, etc etc who would have lended commercial and song writing “credibility”  to “Nu” GnR… Instead he went with relative unknowns like Finck and cult artists like Buckethead… Who didn’t really add anything commercially and were unproven song writers of popular music… He went out on a limb to give a talent like Robin a chance, or Buckethead a larger platform for his playing…. Slash needed/wanted someone like Scott Wieland for his commercial and industry standing in addition to his song writing, vocal talents. 

[username]

On 12/6/2021 at 9:20 AM, Towelie said:

The more music Slash puts out, the more I think GNR fans collectively backed the wrong horse in obsessing over Axl from the late 90s to present day. It is beyond obvious to me in 2021 that Axl was luckier to have Slash than the other way round. 

You may not love everything Slash puts out, but his body of work combining the Snakepit albums, VR albums, SMKC and his 2010 offering really puts Axl to shame. 

In the six years since the reunion Axl has released just two songs, both more than 20 years old - one of which we've known for two decades, meanwhile Slash is on his second album with his real band. 

Axl really hasn't earnt his stripes to be taken seriously as an artist in his own right, unlike Slash. 

Axl Rose appears not to have a creative bone in his body and is coasting on a legacy which he was given way too much credit for over the years. His lack of productivity speaks volumes about who the true driving force was in original Guns, and I really believe that Axl was incredibly fortunate to have been in a band with Slash and Izzy. 

It really is time for the fanbase to stop looking at Axl through rose-tinted glasses. A great singer/frontman in his prime? Absolutely. But a serious artist/songwriter/musician he is not.

I never really backed either in this argument. I did really enjoy VR a lot, Snakepit was decent and Slash's solo album was quite interesting. But I think the SMKC stuff is just as unobjectionable as it is unremarkable. So is that really worth anything?

Axl on the other hand doesn't manage to get anything done at all. CD was only released by hook and by crook. And it was an absolute clusterfuck. The best thing Guns n' Roses fans have gotten since 1993 is The Village Sessions. You know.... the leaked hoard of 2000/2001 material that Team Brazil, GnR's management team, wanted to prevent the fanbase from even talking about. Meanwhile 2019-2021 Axl sounds like a tiny little Japanese girl getting gangbanged by extremely well-endowed men while in the background a lawnmower is running over a litter of kittens. I believe the phrase "ya dun goofed" applies here. 

And then they manage to slap a little Slash & Duff on two 20 year old demo's, completely erase the names of the people that created those songs, release it digitally in September with a shitty lyric video in December while the CD won't ship until February and the vinyl not until June. This has gone from being poorly done to just plain insulting in my opinion. 

So yeah, there was no right horse to back. It's all fucked up. And in my opinion the best thing this band company can do is embrace all of it's history, acknowledge the work done by a lot of people they're pretending never existed and most of all just give the fans the material that was produced at that time as it was done at that time. Open the vaults. But they won't do that either.  

Edited December 7, 2021 by username

[SOH]

31 minutes ago, chester said:

Axl could have went out of his way to hire “name” guitar players at the time like Zakk Wylde, Dave Navarro, etc etc who would have lended commercial and song writing “credibility”  to “Nu” GnR… Instead he went with relative unknowns like Finck and cult artists like Buckethead… Who didn’t really add anything commercially and were unproven song writers of popular music… He went out on a limb to give a talent like Robin a chance, or Buckethead a larger platform for his playing…. Slash needed/wanted someone like Scott Wieland for his commercial and industry standing in addition to his song writing, vocal talents. 

I think he did go out of his way to do that and they turned him down. Wylde has done interviews about the process. 

[RussTCB]

Ive never really backed one or the other per se. I've just liked the music one put out more than the other overall.

As big of a Robin Finck fan as I am, that still has nothing to do with picking Axl over Slash. I loved Slash while he was in GN'R originally, but didn't like much of what he put out after he left. Then I happened to like what Robin did in GN'R even more than what Slash did. It wasn't a matter of "oh this is Axl's guyy, so that's my favorite now". It was just (and still is) my personal taste. 

Every time Slash puts out anything, I take a listen hoping that I'll love it. Why wouldn't I? I'm all for good music from any artist, let alone someone who's worked I've liked a lot in the past. 

I just never end up liking what he's involved with outside of VR/Contraband. So for me it's never been about choosing between the two, it's just about which music I like more. 

 

[chester]

38 minutes ago, SOH said:

I think he did go out of his way to do that and they turned him down. Wylde has done interviews about the process. 

Zakk was thought of during a period where Slash was still associated with the band, Axl stated he hoped Zakk could push Slash but instead Slash resisted. Which is understandable, two monster players playing together is hard enough, let alone being asked to share the spotlight in what was your band… As others have stated I never really picked Slash or Axl, it’s just over time ones output has been more sonically thrilling to my ears, even though Slash outpaced Axl in content and went out of his way to make his product more commercially pleasant (and available)  it never grabbed me in the same way once he was outside the confines of GnR or his working relationship with Axl, whatever the dynamic was that he lost. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by chester

[darkside259]

1 hour ago, username said:

I never really backed either in this argument. I did really enjoy VR a lot, Snakepit was decent and Slash's solo album was quite interesting. But I think the SMKC stuff is just as unobjectionable as it is unremarkable. So is that really worth anything?

Axl on the other hand doesn't manage to get anything done at all. CD was only released by hook and by crook. And it was an absolute clusterfuck. The best thing Guns n' Roses fans have gotten since 1993 is The Village Sessions. You know.... the leaked hoard of 2000/2001 material that Team Brazil, GnR's management team, didn't wanted to prevent the fanbase from even talking about. Meanwhile 2019-2021 Axl sounds like a tiny little Japanese girl getting gangbanged by extremely well-endowed men while in the background a lawnmower is running over a litter of kittens. I believe the phrase "ya dun goofed" applies here. 

And then they manage to slap a little Slash & Duff on two 20 year old demo's, completely erase the names of the people that created those songs, release it digitally in September with a shitty lyric video in December while the CD won't ship until February and the vinyl not until June. This has gone from being poorly done to just plain insulting in my opinion. 

So yeah, there was no right horse to back. It's all fucked up. And in my opinion the best thing this band company can do is embrace all of it's history, acknowledge the work done by a lot of people they're pretending never existed and most of all just give the fans the material that was produced at that time as it was done at that time. Open the vaults. But they won't do that either.  

i mean your profile scream hater sp whats the point to be in a gnr forum if you dones n t like the band at all? 

Just now, darkside259 said:

i mean your profile scream hater sp whats the point to be in a gnr forum if you dones n t like the band at all? 

Axl sounds like a tiny little Japanese girl getting gangbanged by extremely well-endowed men while in the background a lawnmower is running over a litter of kittens. I believe the phrase "ya dun goofed" applies here.  

WHAT? dude you r out of you mind stop watching porn 

[username]

16 minutes ago, darkside259 said:

i mean your profile scream hater sp whats the point to be in a gnr forum if you dones n t like the band at all?

Yes. How dare I criticize this band! You're so right! Axl sounds better than ever and thank you team Brazil by take care of us! 

[darkside259]

Just now, username said:

Yes. How dare I criticize this band! You're so right! Axl sounds better than ever and thank you team Brazil by take care of us! 

thats better 

[Mikey Whipwreck]

21 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, the "Illusions way" (i.e. three -two, in that case - solo albums in one, as Axl had put it) could have been the way out in the mid-90s, if musical differences was the sole or main issue. But the fact that they weren't able to do it suggests that the issues and differences between them were much deeper and complicated than that.

That's the thing though, I don't think the issues were that deep or complicated. It just came down to Axl and Slash being too stubborn and immature to compromise and communicate like adults. 

Go read some of the interviews from back then.

Slash was openly negative about Paul Huge. Axl and how Axl brought him in without anyone else's input. Axl countered that Slash never suggested an alternative and pushed back on his other suggestions like Zakk Wylde.

Slash said Axl was treating Guns like his solo band and wanted to make songs that sounded like Pearl Jam, who Slash hated. Axl claimed Slash refused to let him have any input on the songs he brought to the table then turned around and used songs that were supposed to be for Guns on the Snakepit album. 

Then after the break up they both blamed each other and Axl had a lot of resentment because he claimed Slash told a bunch of lies that were taken as fact by the public and the press. But actually leading up the the split it all seemed to be ego and creative differences 

[Mikey Whipwreck]

5 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

All true. If he had released that album mixed and mastered in 2000 it probably would have been accepted. If he had followed up in 2006/08 with a record with Better etc. people would have said "it's not GNR" but the quality would be hard to fight with.

Personally, I'm happy the album didn't come out in 2000 because the final versions are far superior for my taste. The demo of Chinese is not as good as the finished version largely due to Axl adding all those Bumble guitars, which really kicked it into gear.

I'd rather we got 2-3 albums instead of one. 

But to me the only song that was significantly improved by all the tinkering was TWAT. The Bucket outro and real orchestration lifted it to a much higher level. Prostitute benefitted from the beefed up guitars and orchestration, and I like the guitar work on the outro of the album version of Catcher. But for the most part it certainly wasn't worth fiddling around with these songs for another years to the detriment of the band members who actually created the music on the album, and the fans. 1999-2002 he had an insanely talented band that could've done a lot more and he flushed it away (along with his prime and whatever musical ambition he had) by refusing to release their music. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Mikey Whipwreck

[SoulMonster]

25 minutes ago, Mikey Whipwreck said:

Go read some of the interviews from back then.

Classic 

[Tom2112]

1 hour ago, Mikey Whipwreck said:

I'd rather we got 2-3 albums instead of one. 

But to me the only song that was significantly improved by all the tinkering was TWAT. The Bucket outro and real orchestration lifted it to a much higher level. Prostitute benefitted from the beefed up guitars and orchestration, and I like the guitar work on the outro of the album version of Catcher. But for the most part it certainly wasn't worth fiddling around with these songs for another years to the detriment of the band members who actually created the music on the album, and the fans. 1999-2002 he had an insanely talented band that could've done a lot more and he flushed it away (along with his prime and whatever musical ambition he had) by refusing to release their music. 

Yeah I hear you. Axl can't be blameless but Tommy was pretty honest when he laid out the delays (well besides rightfully throwing Axl under the bus) when he said Axl was ready to release music in the early 00s and Jimmy Iovine got in his head and made him doubt himself and the material. 

Regardless... 1 good album is enough. Also, there was a talented band, but there was a bunch of infighting so even if Axl had released the record Bucket was bound to quit and Robin was always going to run home to NIN.

[Top-Hatted One]

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Yeah I hear you. Axl can't be blameless but Tommy was pretty honest when he laid out the delays (well besides rightfully throwing Axl under the bus) when he said Axl was ready to release music in the early 00s and Jimmy Iovine got in his head and made him doubt himself and the material. 

Regardless... 1 good album is enough. Also, there was a talented band, but there was a bunch of infighting so even if Axl had released the record Bucket was bound to quit and Robin was always going to run home to NIN.

Damn what a shame. Fuck these record company moguls 

[h2sublime]

I backed both horses

[Draguns]

6 hours ago, Mikey Whipwreck said:

That's the thing though, I don't think the issues were that deep or complicated. It just came down to Axl and Slash being too stubborn and immature to compromise and communicate like adults. 

Go read some of the interviews from back then.

Slash was openly negative about Paul Huge. Axl and how Axl brought him in without anyone else's input. Axl countered that Slash never suggested an alternative and pushed back on his other suggestions like Zakk Wylde.

Slash said Axl was treating Guns like his solo band and wanted to make songs that sounded like Pearl Jam, who Slash hated. Axl claimed Slash refused to let him have any input on the songs he brought to the table then turned around and used songs that were supposed to be for Guns on the Snakepit album. 

Then after the break up they both blamed each other and Axl had a lot of resentment because he claimed Slash told a bunch of lies that were taken as fact by the public and the press. But actually leading up the the split it all seemed to be ego and creative differences 

Before the reunion, Steven Tyler said that there was something very deep and personal regarding the feud of Axl and Slash. I believe this was the case as well.  I think it was more complicate than just a change in musical direction.

[Draguns]

For me, I thought Axl and Slash needed each other. I have always considered both my childhood idols. I think both of them messed up.  When you are playing in a half filled arena that's about to get mothballed (Axl), that's an issue. When you are are playing in food festivals and not headlining arenas nor stadiums (Slash) after being a guitar icon, that's also an issue.  Fact is GNR was 5 guys who all needed each other. Their mix of talent created an iconic album. They were the sum of all parts. I think Izzy leaving the band hurt the band a lot.  I also think the firing of Adler hurt the band. I've said this before and I'll say it again. The biggest business  mistake that Axl made was not letting go of the GNR. If he had put the name on hiatus and have gone solo, I think he would have been successful in creating music that went into different genres. 

[History2010]

It all boils down to quality vs quantity. I think Chinese Democracy is better than all of Slash's post-Guns work. I value quality most of all over everything else. If you prefer having more music, Slash is the right choice. There is no definitive answer to this question, it's all up to the individual.  

[Powderfinger]

I didn’t back any horse, but the original GnR had songwriting chemistry. All Axl’s baby’s were elevated by Slash. Axl forgot that and thought he could drive it forward alone. And he did. But it’s harder without Izzy, Slash & Duffs ideas. 
 

We just missed out on a lot of what could have been great material from that band. 
 

Instead we’ve got a lot of Izzy solo stuff, a lot of Slash solo stuff, some Duff solo stuff and Chinese democracy. And none of it is as good as what could have been if all that solo material had been submitted for GnR records. 

[SoulMonster]

4 minutes ago, Powderfinger said:

I didn’t back any horse, but the original GnR had songwriting chemistry. All Axl’s baby’s were elevated by Slash. Axl forgot that and thought he could drive it forward alone. And he did. But it’s harder without Izzy, Slash & Duffs ideas. 

I agree with your main point but I don't think Axl forgot how great Slash was. Axl didn't want for Slash to quit. It was Slash who decided to leave because he thought he could make it without Axl, not the other way around. When going got rough, he left for Snakepit. Slash quitting was not what Axl wanted and he took that "betrayal" pretty badly. 

[Rovim]

11 minutes ago, Powderfinger said:

I didn’t back any horse, but the original GnR had songwriting chemistry. All Axl’s baby’s were elevated by Slash. Axl forgot that and thought he could drive it forward alone. And he did. But it’s harder without Izzy, Slash & Duffs ideas. 
 

We just missed out on a lot of what could have been great material from that band. 
 

Instead we’ve got a lot of Izzy solo stuff, a lot of Slash solo stuff, some Duff solo stuff and Chinese democracy. And none of it is as good as what could have been if all that solo material had been submitted for GnR records. 

but they didn't get along well enough to stay together in the same band. It's been known to happen. I think every classic member did the best they could and I don't believe Axl forgot what Slash brought to the table. He tried to convince him to stay and talked about how he couldn't do an album like Appetite without him so he didn't even try although I don't know that he really wanted to make another album in that style. Maybe somewhere in the middle. Slash didn't want to share his Fall To Pieces ideas with him as well. Maybe both of them wanted the other one to let them lead cause they had different ideas of where Gn'R should go as a creative entity.

I think some ideas can work on paper, like Paul being in Gn'R with Slash but you can't ignore the personalities involved.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Rovim

[Powderfinger]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

I agree with your main point but I don't think Axl forgot how great Slash was. Axl didn't want for Slash to quit. It was Slash who decided to leave because he thought he could make it without Axl, not the other way around. When going got rough, he left for Snakepit. Slash quitting was not what Axl wanted and he took that "betrayal" pretty badly. 

It all goes back to that contract. I think that shows how Axl viewed the band. Slash left because he took a huff over the snake pit material being rejected by Axl, the direction of the record, and the general diva behaviour over the course of the Illusions tour.