Russia Invades Ukraine

[Tomek1985]

15 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Again, I'm not saying surrender Ukraine immediately, simply let Ukraine be wiped out or anything like that. Russia being aggressively sanctioned has already begun, that's a start. Retaliate and handle Russia but do so with great care and should it escalate to choosing between letting them have Ukraine or dive into WW3; then, at that point, let them have Ukraine. Same rationale for Taiwan. Because with this train of thought there is still the chance to play the long game and get them back later. The chance to greatly reduce the death and devastation.

If WW3 happens there is a good chance that Ukraine or perhaps many - maybe all - countries are wiped off the face of the Earth.

Quit that bullshit. Nobody. Ever. Should. Attack. Any. Country. Like. That. And u sayin lets Just fuck the Country, its better to protect own ass. Remember 1939 u idiot?  Auschwitz? Ringing any bells WHY THAT HAPPENED? Know WHY? No? I will tell ya. It did happened because assholes like you did the same. Same thinking.

 

Ban that asshole, he insulted half of the Europe with his idiotic visions.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Tomek1985

[Stay.Of.Execution]

 

[Sweersa]

6 hours ago, grouse said:

Well looks like that's it for Ukraine, country will probably end up getting cut up in half, berlin wall type situation for the next couple of decades if Putin is really pushing for it that is. 

If they are lucky, I don't see them existing for much longer, at least not without a Russian puppet government.

[SoulMonster]

A Russian puppet goverment, like in Belarus, is exactly what Putin wants. They will act like a buffer between Russia and NATO.

[Coma16]

What is the history of the Crimea region? Did it "belong" to Russia a few years ago and was taken control by The Ukraine? Or was it never given back after Soviet Union collapsed?

[zombux]

15 minutes ago, Coma16 said:

What is the history of the Crimea region? Did it "belong" to Russia a few years ago and was taken control by The Ukraine? Or was it never given back after Soviet Union collapsed?

Russia conquered it in the times of Catherine II in 18th century (it used to be a remnant of Golden Horde called Crimean Khanate, itself a puppet state of Ottoman Turkey), it was since then part of Russia proper. in the USSR times, it was transferred over to Ukrainian SSR by Khruschev. Russia retained a military base on it though. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by zombux

[downzy]

 

[downzy]

 

[downzy]

One thing to keep in mind is that both Russia and Ukraine are two of the biggest (in the top five) grain exporters on the planet.

The grain ports in Odyssa are now shut down.

Millions outside of Russia and Ukraine will feel the effects.  Remember that the high gas prices we’re going to be paying for awhile are inconvenient, but they’re nothing compared to many no longer being able to afford or have access to grain to feed themselves and their families. 

[Coma16]

22 minutes ago, zombux said:

Russia conquered it in the times of Catherine II in 18th century (it used to be a remnant of Golden Horde called Crimean Khanate, itself a puppet state of Ottoman Turkey), it was since then part of Russia proper. in the USSR times, it was transferred over to Ukrainian SSR by Khruschev. Russia retained a military base on it though. 

Thanks. I asked because I remember a few years ago (when that passenger plane was shot down, or maybe even more recent) there seemed to be a conflict in the area, but it sounds like even then it was considered part of Ukraine?

[SoulMonster]

6 minutes ago, Coma16 said:

Thanks. I asked because I remember a few years ago (when that passenger plane was shot down, or maybe even more recent) there seemed to be a conflict in the area, but it sounds like even then it was considered part of Ukraine?

Yes, and Russia annexed it. Putin wasn't sufficiently opposed after that and that has obviously boldened him to now take the rest of Ukraine, or at least parts of it.

[downzy]

Gazprom, Russia’s state-owned energy company, has lost 40-50 percent of its value in the last twelve hours.

[Coma16]

7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Yes, and Russia annexed it. Putin wasn't sufficiently opposed after that and that has obviously boldened him to now take the rest of Ukraine, or at least parts of it.

Do you believe Russia intends on taking over Ukraine as a whole, or just Crimea (or something in-between)?

[SoulMonster]

7 minutes ago, Coma16 said:

Do you believe Russia intends on taking over Ukraine as a whole, or just Crimea (or something in-between)?

Well, they already got away with taking Crimea. Now they will probably try to hold on to the two other Ukrainian "states" they invaded yesterday. And since they are currently attacking Kiev, the capital, they are likely to want to topple the Ukrainian government (which has been pro-EU) and somehow put someone Russia-friendly in command in its stead, but exactly how that is gonna succeed, I have no idea. They would like someone like Lukashenko in Belarus to be in control of Ukraine. But I don't know if the Ukrainian people will allow it and we could be looking at years of unrest and opposition to the invaders, with the opposition being morally, financially and technically supported by NATO and other states. This could be absolutely tragedy for Ukraine. It will likely also hurt Putin and Russia, unless we, like we did when they annexed Crimea, just allow it with minimal sanctions.

Edited February 24, 2022 by SoulMonster

[SoulMonster]

What really is worrying is the fact that China seems to support Russia. At least they have so far refrained from describing it as an "invasion" and seemed sympathetic to Russia's concern over the "security situation in Ukraine". If China and Russia enters  a military alliance it could bolden Putin to invade other countries knowing that NATO would never risk a war with a combined Russia/China. Then we end up with a second cold war with NATO (with USA) on one side and Russia/China on the other.

[zombux]

6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Well, they already got away with taking Crimea. Now they will probably try to hold on to the two other Ukrainian "states" they invaded yesterday. And since they are currently attacking Kiev, the capital, they are likely to want to topple the Ukrainian government (which has been pro-EU) and somehow put someone Russia-friendly in command in its stead, but exactly how that is gonna succeed, I have no idea. They would like someone like Lukashenko in Belarus to be in control of Ukraine. But I don't know if the Ukrainian people will allow it and we could be looking at years of unrest and opposition to the invaders, with the opposition being morally, financially and technically supported by NATO and other states. This could be absolutely tragedy for Ukraine. It will likely also hurt Putin and Russia, unless we, like we did when they annexed Crimea, just allow it with minimal sanctions.

this is the most likely scenario, yes. Putler internationally supported by China. there is sadly not much we can do to help UA besides going into full scale world war  

[downzy]

10 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

What really is worrying is the fact that China seems to support Russia. At least they have so far refrained from describing it as an "invasion" and seemed sympathetic to Russia's concern over the "security situation in Ukraine". If China and Russia enters  a military alliance it could bolden Putin to invade other countries knowing that NATO would never risk a war with a combined Russia/China. Then we end up with a second cold war with NATO (with USA) on one side and Russia/China on the other.

I don't think China is ready to go that far.

Their interest here is likely limited to Taiwan.  Bolstering Russia's claim to Ukraine (or parts of Ukraine) helps China's position that any action, including military force, is justified to retake a "rogue" state that has been internationally accepted as part of China for decades.

The reality is that Ukraine just isn't as important geo-politically to the US as Taiwan is.  At some point China will act to retake Taiwan, which is much better positioned to defend itself because of the massive amounts of military support it gets from the US.

It's a tough position for leaders of liberal democracies to be in.  Do you want to risk a global war over places like Ukraine or Taiwan when the historical relationships of these two places with their larger and aggressive neighbours is complicated? 

Some might argue that a full-scale military response is necessary to prevent further aggression.  Maybe.  But it seems somewhat contradictory to suggest that a continental or global war is necessary to prevent a continental and global war.

I think the line with Russia gets drawn at Ukraine.  Similarly, the sad reality is that the situation with China and Taiwan isn't all that different when looking at it from a thousand feet up.  The US and its allies need to make any actions taken by Russia and China to capture these regions hurt (much easier with Russia than China), but not so much to risk expanding the theatre of war.  If Russia then moves on to Poland or China takes a step into one of its neighbours that has a firm defence pact with the US, then there's no going back.  But I would suspect Biden and other leaders will respond using other tools they have at their disposal before resorting to a direct military response.

[downzy]

40 minutes ago, zombux said:

this is the most likely scenario, yes. Putler internationally supported by China. there is sadly not much we can do to help UA besides going into full scale world war  

This isn't true.  There's a lot the US and European nations can do without a full scale war.

First and foremost is providing economic and military assistance to resistance forces in Ukraine for months or years to come.  Russia does not have the resources to wage a prolonged battle to occupy all of Ukraine (this is now compounded with skyrocketing interest rates banks are now charging Russia).

Second, further economic sanctions that target the cronies that help keep Putin in power will impose domestic pressures within Russia to curb Putin's ambitions.  There's a lot of rich Russians with mega yachts dotting the coasts of Europe that they really want to keep.

Third, the US could cripple Russia's economy by ending Russia's access to the SWIFT financial system.  This action brought Iran to its knees ten years ago and forced them to the table.  It's a pretty severe step and not one without unforeseen consequences, but one worth considering in light of Russia's actions today.

Fourth, Russia's main leverage with Europe is its energy products.  Much of this can be mitigated against if Germany, Italy, France, and other European countries became more energy independent through the use of small-scale nuclear reactors.  Russian wealth is largely predicated on its energy supplies.  Reduce the demand for those supplies and there's less money to fund Putin's military.

[zombux]

16 minutes ago, downzy said:

This isn't true.  There's a lot the US and European nations can do without a full scale war.

First and foremost is providing economic and military assistance to resistance forces in Ukraine for months or years to come.  Russia does not have the resources to wage a prolonged battle to occupy all of Ukraine (this is now compounded with skyrocketing interest rates banks are now charging Russia).

Second, further economic sanctions that target the cronies that help keep Putin in power will impose domestic pressures within Russia to curb Putin's ambitions.  There's a lot of rich Russians with mega yachts dotting the coasts of Europe that they really want to keep.

Third, the US could cripple Russia's economy by ending Russia's access to the SWIFT financial system.  This action brought Iran to its knees ten years ago and forced them to the table.  It's a pretty severe step and not one without unforeseen consequences, but one worth considering in light of Russia's actions today.

Fourth, Russia's main leverage with Europe is its energy products.  Much of this can be mitigated against if Germany, Italy, France, and other European countries became more energy independent through the use of small-scale nuclear reactors.  Russian wealth is largely predicated on its energy supplies.  Reduce the demand for those supplies and there's less money to fund Putin's military.

yes, of course I meant direct support. indirect economic support is what we can (AND MUST) do.

cutting them off SWIFT is not on the table at the moment as far as I know, it would hurt us a lot too. hard to say if it happens later.

but yeah, I'd rather pay dearly for gas from US and sheikhs and implement Green deal no matter the cost, than pay the mafia gas station called Russia. fuck them.

regarding military assistence to Ukraine - it's a very big question what "Ukraine" is going to be in the near future. if russian-controlled puppet state, it would make no sense to provide any assistance to that.

hopefully UA military can hold at least part of their country so we can support them.

what baffles me is, that russian diplomats are still present in our countries. that lying snake located in our capital should already have been called persona non grata. 

unfortunately, politicians so far just talk and talk and any effects are still very subtle. glad to see that at least the automatic mechanisms of economy clicked in instantly without any action required.

[downzy]

But somehow for many conservatives Canada is the true threat to “freEdoMs!”

[Stay.Of.Execution]

3 minutes ago, downzy said:

But somehow for many conservatives Canada is the true threat to “freEdoMs!”

It's so funny. The idiots who have been protesting against the covid restrictions kept talking about what a dictatorship Germany is. Wish we could fly those fuckers to Russia so they can experience a real dictatorship for once

[zombux]

7 minutes ago, Stay.Of.Execution said:

It's so funny. The idiots who have been protesting against the covid restrictions kept talking about what a dictatorship Germany is. Wish we could fly those fuckers to Russia so they can experience a real dictatorship for once

here, a bunch of those fuckers organized groups and protested every possible time against covid restrictions and shouted about freedomz all the time.

recently it turned out that their chief has office in Russia.

yesterday they changed the group name to "friends of russia" or some crap like that.

of course anti-covid protesters and pro-russian groups are all the very same cancer.

Edited February 24, 2022 by zombux

[Blackstar]

Putin's Russia is what it is. But, really, what were the West and the Ukrainian government expecting by pushing for Ukraine to join NATO (having also the precedent of Georgia)?

Sure, each country should ideally have the right to join whatever international organization or alliance they want. But, in an ideal world, an organization like NATO wouldn't need to exist in the first place.

Sure, no country should be allowed to invade another sovereign nation. But this sentence becomes instantly ironic just looking at the recent history of Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc. (not to mention Israel) where countries were attacked and invaded with whatever "lawful" excuses.  Also, WWII is always an easy and "handy" comparison since it's a part of history that everyone knows enough about, but there should be caution with these parallels considering, among other things, the role of far right and fascist groups in Ukrainian politics during and after Euromaidan, which has been downplayed by the West.

Things can only get worse now. Besides the obvious consequences for the Ukrainian people, at  the very least, sanctions will mostly affect the Russian people and boost the prices in food and fuel further, especially in the countries (including the EU) that are dependent on Russia and Ukraine for grain.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Blackstar
typos

[zombux]

18 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

in an ideal world, an organization like NATO wouldn't need to exist in the first place

the answer for your question is simple: see why NATO has been created in the first place. yes, it was because its members feared invasion by Russia. and that is the very same reason why other countries want to become part of it. and what's happening in the last days only confirms it. noone civilized wants to be a slave of primitive but aggressive raider from the steppes and Ukrainians, Georgians as well as Baltic countries know that very well, they all have been invaded by Russia numerous times in the past and they know very well how it feels like.

 

edit: speaking about "fascist groups". don't get me started on that. our country was invaded and occupied by Russia in 1968, saying that fascists were taking it here over. russian scum considers everything "fascists", while in reality the closest thing to fascist regime is the russian one.

this pic is from Russia and this is normal over there. so don't get me started. Ukraine just got invaded "because fascism", in exactly the same way as our country was. this saying is an insult to me and every country Russia invaded under this flat out lie.

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by zombux

[Tomek1985]

13 minutes ago, zombux said:

the answer for your question is simple: see why NATO has been created in the first place. yes, it was because its members feared invasion by Russia. and that is the very same reason why other countries want to become part of it. and what's happening in the last days only confirms it. noone civilized wants to be a slave of primitive but aggressive raider from the steppes and Ukrainians, Georgians as well as Baltic countries know that very well, they all have been invaded by Russia numerous times in the past and they know very well how it feels like.

Exactly.