The Ramones, Green Day, and so called "Pop-Punk"

[mr-fukaji]

they're popular enough that people have heard the name, but have a reputation for "never selling out, man" which seems to be more important than the music nowadays.

They're popular to name drop because they're one of the best loved bands of all time, and arguably the most popular punk band of all time.

The t-shirt thing, i've no idea, nothing they can really do about that as they're all dead.

Always been on top of their game though, consistently popular blah blah, so its not like it's a recent thing people have started riding them.

[Guest Ohdistortedsmile1789]

You are all missing the point, which is that most of the things you hate about Green Day (in their early days) were present in The Ramones music. And since we all seem to agree that The Ramones invented punk, to call Green Day "Pop-Punk" is incorrect. Atleast when Dookie came out, they were just plain Punk, they were really more traditionalists than anything else. So all of you who think The Ramones were "Punk", and Green Day are "Pop-Punk", explain that to me, excluding "American Idiot" which is pretty far from Punk entirely. What's the difference? I don't believe there is one.

When the Ramones first came out, NO ONE sounded like them. The Ramones were the first band to play all their songs under 2 1/2 mintues with half the songs sounding the same. With the simple chords they played, the Ramones played VERY unique music.

When the Ramones came out, practically everyone wanted to be in a band because there were no limits. Some people actually thought they were a real gang. When the Ramones went to London in 1977 to play at the Roundhouse, Johnny Rotten actually thought that they were going to beat him up and kill him.

"There were no standards after the Ramones. All you had to do was be yourself and that gave me a lot of self esteem when I needed it, and cofidence" - Kirk Hammett.

"They [Ramones] deserve to be seen by many young people, because they're the Kings of Rock, as far as I'm concerned. The young people who think that, like, Green Day is punk rock need to hear the Ramones."(Ben Cameron (Soundgarden) Lollapalooza-96).

I have more quotes from other artists talking about the Ramones, including quotes from GNR. If you want them, I'll post them.

Nah, its fine thanks!

I wasn't talking to you, but alright then.

You can go ahead but you won't convince me, and most of your descriptions of The Ramones show similarities with early Green Day. The point is that Green Day were traditionalists more than anything, I'm not defending Green Day here, I'm defending the mislabeling of Green Day. I don't even like them all that much, I'm just saying that in terms of lyrical content and the influence of "pop", they don't deserve a different name than The Ramones. Green Day is no more "pop" than The Ramones, atleast 10 years ago they weren't.

[nunchuck]

Listen, the people who slate them (Green Day) have no idea about their history anyway. Their first 2 albums on Lookout records, the first of which dates back to 1989. Their gigging round in a bookmobile. Selling T Shirts and singles at shows. Their involvment and collaboration with other underground bands from the bay area at the time, including Operation Ivy. The gilman st days. Hell, most people who slag Green Day down don't even know about the Gilman st scene. So to conclude, those who don't know- don't talk.

As for The Ramones mini debate, yes i love them and respect them as much as the next punk rock fan and i think they're god, etc etc but they did make a few VERY dodgy albums during the 80's but i'll forgive them because they're dead now.

[metallic ko]

The Ramones seem to be quite a fashionable name to drop at the moment. You even see people in the topman catalogue wearing ramones shirts (albeit pink ones), because they're popular enough that people have heard the name, but have a reputation for "never selling out, man" which seems to be more important than the music nowadays.

Most idiots buy them for the shirt design, not because they actually know who the band are. A lot of people actually say 'Ram Ones' and not Ramones.

[metallic ko]

You are all missing the point, which is that most of the things you hate about Green Day (in their early days) were present in The Ramones music. And since we all seem to agree that The Ramones invented punk, to call Green Day "Pop-Punk" is incorrect. Atleast when Dookie came out, they were just plain Punk, they were really more traditionalists than anything else. So all of you who think The Ramones were "Punk", and Green Day are "Pop-Punk", explain that to me, excluding "American Idiot" which is pretty far from Punk entirely. What's the difference? I don't believe there is one.

When the Ramones first came out, NO ONE sounded like them. The Ramones were the first band to play all their songs under 2 1/2 mintues with half the songs sounding the same. With the simple chords they played, the Ramones played VERY unique music.

When the Ramones came out, practically everyone wanted to be in a band because there were no limits. Some people actually thought they were a real gang. When the Ramones went to London in 1977 to play at the Roundhouse, Johnny Rotten actually thought that they were going to beat him up and kill him.

"There were no standards after the Ramones. All you had to do was be yourself and that gave me a lot of self esteem when I needed it, and cofidence" - Kirk Hammett.

"They [Ramones] deserve to be seen by many young people, because they're the Kings of Rock, as far as I'm concerned. The young people who think that, like, Green Day is punk rock need to hear the Ramones."(Ben Cameron (Soundgarden) Lollapalooza-96).

I have more quotes from other artists talking about the Ramones, including quotes from GNR. If you want them, I'll post them.

Nah, its fine thanks!

I wasn't talking to you, but alright then.

You can go ahead but you won't convince me, and most of your descriptions of The Ramones show similarities with early Green Day. The point is that Green Day were traditionalists more than anything, I'm not defending Green Day here, I'm defending the mislabeling of Green Day. I don't even like them all that much, I'm just saying that in terms of lyrical content and the influence of "pop", they don't deserve a different name than The Ramones. Green Day is no more "pop" than The Ramones, atleast 10 years ago they weren't.

The Ramones have been a band since 1974. They were original as fuck in every way possible. I can understand where you are coming from, but the Ramones were one of the first. The Ramones invented Greenday.

[Ferrari]

Greenday has nothing to do with punk rock. Period.

Punk rock died almost 30 years ago, if you don't know.

[nunchuck]

Greenday has nothing to do with punk rock. Period.

Punk rock died almost 30 years ago, if you don't know.

No, i know Punk. He's a close personal friend of mine and he's alive and well in working in the local sainsbury's. So there!

[johnezz]

You are all missing the point, which is that most of the things you hate about Green Day (in their early days) were present in The Ramones music. And since we all seem to agree that The Ramones invented punk, to call Green Day "Pop-Punk" is incorrect. Atleast when Dookie came out, they were just plain Punk, they were really more traditionalists than anything else. So all of you who think The Ramones were "Punk", and Green Day are "Pop-Punk", explain that to me, excluding "American Idiot" which is pretty far from Punk entirely. What's the difference? I don't believe there is one.

When the Ramones first came out, NO ONE sounded like them. The Ramones were the first band to play all their songs under 2 1/2 mintues with half the songs sounding the same. With the simple chords they played, the Ramones played VERY unique music.

When the Ramones came out, practically everyone wanted to be in a band because there were no limits. Some people actually thought they were a real gang. When the Ramones went to London in 1977 to play at the Roundhouse, Johnny Rotten actually thought that they were going to beat him up and kill him.

"There were no standards after the Ramones. All you had to do was be yourself and that gave me a lot of self esteem when I needed it, and cofidence" - Kirk Hammett.

"They [Ramones] deserve to be seen by many young people, because they're the Kings of Rock, as far as I'm concerned. The young people who think that, like, Green Day is punk rock need to hear the Ramones."(Ben Cameron (Soundgarden) Lollapalooza-96).

I have more quotes from other artists talking about the Ramones, including quotes from GNR. If you want them, I'll post them.

Nah, its fine thanks!

I wasn't talking to you, but alright then.

You can go ahead but you won't convince me, and most of your descriptions of The Ramones show similarities with early Green Day. The point is that Green Day were traditionalists more than anything, I'm not defending Green Day here, I'm defending the mislabeling of Green Day. I don't even like them all that much, I'm just saying that in terms of lyrical content and the influence of "pop", they don't deserve a different name than The Ramones. Green Day is no more "pop" than The Ramones, atleast 10 years ago they weren't.

The Ramones have been a band since 1974. They were original as fuck in every way possible. I can understand where you are coming from, but the Ramones were one of the first. The Ramones invented Greenday.

Ok it's stupid to say "oh Greenday is fake punk because they will never be like the originial punk rockers"

It's just liek saying "oh Gn'R is fake rock because they were never as good as the original rockers"

Face it, Greenday spent years underground and they fought hard and long and earned their fame the hard way.

They weren't shot to fame by MTV unlike another band

[nunchuck]

You are all missing the point, which is that most of the things you hate about Green Day (in their early days) were present in The Ramones music. And since we all seem to agree that The Ramones invented punk, to call Green Day "Pop-Punk" is incorrect. Atleast when Dookie came out, they were just plain Punk, they were really more traditionalists than anything else. So all of you who think The Ramones were "Punk", and Green Day are "Pop-Punk", explain that to me, excluding "American Idiot" which is pretty far from Punk entirely. What's the difference? I don't believe there is one.

When the Ramones first came out, NO ONE sounded like them. The Ramones were the first band to play all their songs under 2 1/2 mintues with half the songs sounding the same. With the simple chords they played, the Ramones played VERY unique music.

When the Ramones came out, practically everyone wanted to be in a band because there were no limits. Some people actually thought they were a real gang. When the Ramones went to London in 1977 to play at the Roundhouse, Johnny Rotten actually thought that they were going to beat him up and kill him.

"There were no standards after the Ramones. All you had to do was be yourself and that gave me a lot of self esteem when I needed it, and cofidence" - Kirk Hammett.

"They [Ramones] deserve to be seen by many young people, because they're the Kings of Rock, as far as I'm concerned. The young people who think that, like, Green Day is punk rock need to hear the Ramones."(Ben Cameron (Soundgarden) Lollapalooza-96).

I have more quotes from other artists talking about the Ramones, including quotes from GNR. If you want them, I'll post them.

Nah, its fine thanks!

I wasn't talking to you, but alright then.

You can go ahead but you won't convince me, and most of your descriptions of The Ramones show similarities with early Green Day. The point is that Green Day were traditionalists more than anything, I'm not defending Green Day here, I'm defending the mislabeling of Green Day. I don't even like them all that much, I'm just saying that in terms of lyrical content and the influence of "pop", they don't deserve a different name than The Ramones. Green Day is no more "pop" than The Ramones, atleast 10 years ago they weren't.

The Ramones have been a band since 1974. They were original as fuck in every way possible. I can understand where you are coming from, but the Ramones were one of the first. The Ramones invented Greenday.

Ok it's stupid to say "oh Greenday is fake punk because they will never be like the originial punk rockers"

It's just liek saying "oh Gn'R is fake rock because they were never as good as the original rockers"

Face it, Greenday spent years underground and they fought hard and long and earned their fame the hard way.

They weren't shot to fame by MTV unlike another band

rock1

[metallic ko]

You are all missing the point, which is that most of the things you hate about Green Day (in their early days) were present in The Ramones music. And since we all seem to agree that The Ramones invented punk, to call Green Day "Pop-Punk" is incorrect. Atleast when Dookie came out, they were just plain Punk, they were really more traditionalists than anything else. So all of you who think The Ramones were "Punk", and Green Day are "Pop-Punk", explain that to me, excluding "American Idiot" which is pretty far from Punk entirely. What's the difference? I don't believe there is one.

When the Ramones first came out, NO ONE sounded like them. The Ramones were the first band to play all their songs under 2 1/2 mintues with half the songs sounding the same. With the simple chords they played, the Ramones played VERY unique music.

When the Ramones came out, practically everyone wanted to be in a band because there were no limits. Some people actually thought they were a real gang. When the Ramones went to London in 1977 to play at the Roundhouse, Johnny Rotten actually thought that they were going to beat him up and kill him.

"There were no standards after the Ramones. All you had to do was be yourself and that gave me a lot of self esteem when I needed it, and cofidence" - Kirk Hammett.

"They [Ramones] deserve to be seen by many young people, because they're the Kings of Rock, as far as I'm concerned. The young people who think that, like, Green Day is punk rock need to hear the Ramones."(Ben Cameron (Soundgarden) Lollapalooza-96).

I have more quotes from other artists talking about the Ramones, including quotes from GNR. If you want them, I'll post them.

Nah, its fine thanks!

I wasn't talking to you, but alright then.

You can go ahead but you won't convince me, and most of your descriptions of The Ramones show similarities with early Green Day. The point is that Green Day were traditionalists more than anything, I'm not defending Green Day here, I'm defending the mislabeling of Green Day. I don't even like them all that much, I'm just saying that in terms of lyrical content and the influence of "pop", they don't deserve a different name than The Ramones. Green Day is no more "pop" than The Ramones, atleast 10 years ago they weren't.

The Ramones have been a band since 1974. They were original as fuck in every way possible. I can understand where you are coming from, but the Ramones were one of the first. The Ramones invented Greenday.

Ok it's stupid to say "oh Greenday is fake punk because they will never be like the originial punk rockers"

It's just liek saying "oh Gn'R is fake rock because they were never as good as the original rockers"

Face it, Greenday spent years underground and they fought hard and long and earned their fame the hard way.

They weren't shot to fame by MTV unlike another band

When did I say Greenday were 'fake punk'?!?!

Greenday earned their fame the hard way?!?! Try touring the world in a fucking van for over 20 years. Try being underrated during the time they were around. To this day, the Ramones have not even sold 1 million albums. Learning the fucking hard way?!?! Try three of the original members dead within four years, only to be at the height of their fucking career.

Oh, and if you think the Ramones were played on MTV, well . I don't think so!!!

Edited January 19, 2006 by renthispace

[Guest Ohdistortedsmile1789]

You are all missing the point, which is that most of the things you hate about Green Day (in their early days) were present in The Ramones music. And since we all seem to agree that The Ramones invented punk, to call Green Day "Pop-Punk" is incorrect. Atleast when Dookie came out, they were just plain Punk, they were really more traditionalists than anything else. So all of you who think The Ramones were "Punk", and Green Day are "Pop-Punk", explain that to me, excluding "American Idiot" which is pretty far from Punk entirely. What's the difference? I don't believe there is one.

When the Ramones first came out, NO ONE sounded like them. The Ramones were the first band to play all their songs under 2 1/2 mintues with half the songs sounding the same. With the simple chords they played, the Ramones played VERY unique music.

When the Ramones came out, practically everyone wanted to be in a band because there were no limits. Some people actually thought they were a real gang. When the Ramones went to London in 1977 to play at the Roundhouse, Johnny Rotten actually thought that they were going to beat him up and kill him.

"There were no standards after the Ramones. All you had to do was be yourself and that gave me a lot of self esteem when I needed it, and cofidence" - Kirk Hammett.

"They [Ramones] deserve to be seen by many young people, because they're the Kings of Rock, as far as I'm concerned. The young people who think that, like, Green Day is punk rock need to hear the Ramones."(Ben Cameron (Soundgarden) Lollapalooza-96).

I have more quotes from other artists talking about the Ramones, including quotes from GNR. If you want them, I'll post them.

Nah, its fine thanks!

I wasn't talking to you, but alright then.

You can go ahead but you won't convince me, and most of your descriptions of The Ramones show similarities with early Green Day. The point is that Green Day were traditionalists more than anything, I'm not defending Green Day here, I'm defending the mislabeling of Green Day. I don't even like them all that much, I'm just saying that in terms of lyrical content and the influence of "pop", they don't deserve a different name than The Ramones. Green Day is no more "pop" than The Ramones, atleast 10 years ago they weren't.

The Ramones have been a band since 1974. They were original as fuck in every way possible. I can understand where you are coming from, but the Ramones were one of the first. The Ramones invented Greenday.

You seem to just be defending The Ramones when you don't need to, we all know (atleast I do) that Green Day has nothing on The Ramones, I just think it's worth noting the stylistic similarity because it is oft-overlooked.

[nunchuck]

You are all missing the point, which is that most of the things you hate about Green Day (in their early days) were present in The Ramones music. And since we all seem to agree that The Ramones invented punk, to call Green Day "Pop-Punk" is incorrect. Atleast when Dookie came out, they were just plain Punk, they were really more traditionalists than anything else. So all of you who think The Ramones were "Punk", and Green Day are "Pop-Punk", explain that to me, excluding "American Idiot" which is pretty far from Punk entirely. What's the difference? I don't believe there is one.

When the Ramones first came out, NO ONE sounded like them. The Ramones were the first band to play all their songs under 2 1/2 mintues with half the songs sounding the same. With the simple chords they played, the Ramones played VERY unique music.

When the Ramones came out, practically everyone wanted to be in a band because there were no limits. Some people actually thought they were a real gang. When the Ramones went to London in 1977 to play at the Roundhouse, Johnny Rotten actually thought that they were going to beat him up and kill him.

"There were no standards after the Ramones. All you had to do was be yourself and that gave me a lot of self esteem when I needed it, and cofidence" - Kirk Hammett.

"They [Ramones] deserve to be seen by many young people, because they're the Kings of Rock, as far as I'm concerned. The young people who think that, like, Green Day is punk rock need to hear the Ramones."(Ben Cameron (Soundgarden) Lollapalooza-96).

I have more quotes from other artists talking about the Ramones, including quotes from GNR. If you want them, I'll post them.

Nah, its fine thanks!

I wasn't talking to you, but alright then.

You can go ahead but you won't convince me, and most of your descriptions of The Ramones show similarities with early Green Day. The point is that Green Day were traditionalists more than anything, I'm not defending Green Day here, I'm defending the mislabeling of Green Day. I don't even like them all that much, I'm just saying that in terms of lyrical content and the influence of "pop", they don't deserve a different name than The Ramones. Green Day is no more "pop" than The Ramones, atleast 10 years ago they weren't.

The Ramones have been a band since 1974. They were original as fuck in every way possible. I can understand where you are coming from, but the Ramones were one of the first. The Ramones invented Greenday.

Ok it's stupid to say "oh Greenday is fake punk because they will never be like the originial punk rockers"

It's just liek saying "oh Gn'R is fake rock because they were never as good as the original rockers"

Face it, Greenday spent years underground and they fought hard and long and earned their fame the hard way.

They weren't shot to fame by MTV unlike another band

When did I say Greenday were 'fake punk'?!?!

Greenday earned their fame the hard way?!?! Try touring the world in a fucking van for over 20 years. Try being underrated during the time they were around. To this day, the Ramones have not even sold 1 million albums. Learning the fucking hard way?!?! Try three of the original members dead within four years, only to be at the height of their fucking career.

Oh, and if you think the Ramones were played on MTV, well . I don't think so!!!

Woah, steady that horse a second! The Ramones touring budget was NEVER as low as Green day's was back in the Lookout days. It should also be noted that The Ramones, god bless them, were signed to a major label from the word go and made no secret of the fact that their main aim was to be played all over the radio and have hit records and make money etc etc which unfortuantely they never did in most countries.

Nobody can reasonably say, whether you like the band or not, that Green day have not learnt the hard way and worked their fucking asses off for where they are now, which by the way the late Ramones had an admiration of, there was a public mutual respect between both bands.

Correct me if im wrong, in fact don't bother cause i know im right, it was a good 5 or 6 years before Green day even thought about signing for a major and explored the merest chance of having even a minor hit single as it went against their principles at the time.

I dont think learning the hard way has anything to with band members passing away when the band has finished (not at the peak of their career, they called it a day in 1996) Joey and Dee Dee left us in 2001 and 02 respectively. Johnny in 2004.

The Ramones were played on MTV, not much admittedly but they were. In some countries, Argentina for one, they were pretty big and stuff like 'I Wanna Be Sedated' was on heavy rotation on MTV for a while.

To conclude, both bands careers took very different paths and to compare them is like, well, chalk and cheese. In a way, The Ramones will always be cooler to like because a) they came 20 years before and B) they never broke through to the mainstream, which is so ironic as it was their main ambition.

[T Patten]

I don't like The Ramones, i hate Green Day and i think 99% of punk music is shit, it has no depth, no quality, no originality, no nothing, just the same old lines going round and round...

[johnezz]

I don't like The Ramones, i hate Green Day and i think 99% of punk music is shit, it has no depth, no quality, no originality, no nothing, just the same old lines going round and round...

You do realise that "My Generation" is considered the first "Punk" song....which was of course performed by the band with the drummer that had the same name as your username.

[metallic ko]

You are all missing the point, which is that most of the things you hate about Green Day (in their early days) were present in The Ramones music. And since we all seem to agree that The Ramones invented punk, to call Green Day "Pop-Punk" is incorrect. Atleast when Dookie came out, they were just plain Punk, they were really more traditionalists than anything else. So all of you who think The Ramones were "Punk", and Green Day are "Pop-Punk", explain that to me, excluding "American Idiot" which is pretty far from Punk entirely. What's the difference? I don't believe there is one.

When the Ramones first came out, NO ONE sounded like them. The Ramones were the first band to play all their songs under 2 1/2 mintues with half the songs sounding the same. With the simple chords they played, the Ramones played VERY unique music.

When the Ramones came out, practically everyone wanted to be in a band because there were no limits. Some people actually thought they were a real gang. When the Ramones went to London in 1977 to play at the Roundhouse, Johnny Rotten actually thought that they were going to beat him up and kill him.

"There were no standards after the Ramones. All you had to do was be yourself and that gave me a lot of self esteem when I needed it, and cofidence" - Kirk Hammett.

"They [Ramones] deserve to be seen by many young people, because they're the Kings of Rock, as far as I'm concerned. The young people who think that, like, Green Day is punk rock need to hear the Ramones."(Ben Cameron (Soundgarden) Lollapalooza-96).

I have more quotes from other artists talking about the Ramones, including quotes from GNR. If you want them, I'll post them.

Nah, its fine thanks!

I wasn't talking to you, but alright then.

You can go ahead but you won't convince me, and most of your descriptions of The Ramones show similarities with early Green Day. The point is that Green Day were traditionalists more than anything, I'm not defending Green Day here, I'm defending the mislabeling of Green Day. I don't even like them all that much, I'm just saying that in terms of lyrical content and the influence of "pop", they don't deserve a different name than The Ramones. Green Day is no more "pop" than The Ramones, atleast 10 years ago they weren't.

The Ramones have been a band since 1974. They were original as fuck in every way possible. I can understand where you are coming from, but the Ramones were one of the first. The Ramones invented Greenday.

Ok it's stupid to say "oh Greenday is fake punk because they will never be like the originial punk rockers"

It's just liek saying "oh Gn'R is fake rock because they were never as good as the original rockers"

Face it, Greenday spent years underground and they fought hard and long and earned their fame the hard way.

They weren't shot to fame by MTV unlike another band

When did I say Greenday were 'fake punk'?!?!

Greenday earned their fame the hard way?!?! Try touring the world in a fucking van for over 20 years. Try being underrated during the time they were around. To this day, the Ramones have not even sold 1 million albums. Learning the fucking hard way?!?! Try three of the original members dead within four years, only to be at the height of their fucking career.

Oh, and if you think the Ramones were played on MTV, well . I don't think so!!!

Woah, steady that horse a second! The Ramones touring budget was NEVER as low as Green day's was back in the Lookout days. It should also be noted that The Ramones, god bless them, were signed to a major label from the word go and made no secret of the fact that their main aim was to be played all over the radio and have hit records and make money etc etc which unfortuantely they never did in most countries.

Nobody can reasonably say, whether you like the band or not, that Green day have not learnt the hard way and worked their fucking asses off for where they are now, which by the way the late Ramones had an admiration of, there was a public mutual respect between both bands.

Correct me if im wrong, in fact don't bother cause i know im right, it was a good 5 or 6 years before Green day even thought about signing for a major and explored the merest chance of having even a minor hit single as it went against their principles at the time.

I dont think learning the hard way has anything to with band members passing away when the band has finished (not at the peak of their career, they called it a day in 1996) Joey and Dee Dee left us in 2001 and 02 respectively. Johnny in 2004.

The Ramones were played on MTV, not much admittedly but they were. In some countries, Argentina for one, they were pretty big and stuff like 'I Wanna Be Sedated' was on heavy rotation on MTV for a while.

To conclude, both bands careers took very different paths and to compare them is like, well, chalk and cheese. In a way, The Ramones will always be cooler to like because a) they came 20 years before and B) they never broke through to the mainstream, which is so ironic as it was their main ambition.

Joey died in 2001, Dee Dee in 2002, and Johnny in 2004. The Ramones are more popular now then ever before. And I think's thats a real kick in the arse. The Ramones were around before MTV even existed, and they refused to play a lot of their songs when MTV started. South America is a different story. They were fucking HUGE over there. Fans running after them even if taxis. Hunders of fans waiting outside their hotel rooms. They'd sell out venues of 30,000 people. But in America, they'd play to 5,000 people, propbably not even sold out. The Ramones played 2,263 shows during their 22 year career, which is 1 show every 3 days.

[droezle]

Greenday has nothing to do with punk rock. Period.

Punk rock died almost 30 years ago, if you don't know.

In my oppinion Green day is just a average rock band. They where punk rock in the beginning of the band but during the years they become a rock band. Punk rock didn't die 30 years ago. Just listen to bands like Bad Religion or Pennywise. Those bands are fucking punk rock. The Ramones and bands like Iggy and The Stooges are the founders of punk rock.

Edited January 20, 2006 by droezle