Axl's voice getting lost in the mix

[brock landers]

How is it that his vocals came through in 1992 vs 2006, Any idea why he isn't front and center in the mix anymore? He gets lost quite frequently...

Compare this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5tp1SikjWE

to

This

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxUT29XwEmQ

What is the difference in being able to hear HIM clearly??

[Vadin]

and so does bumblefoots solos...

[Lukinx]

and so does bumblefoots solos...

Damn right! That really sucks!

[droezle]

Somebody's singing backup for Axl, and I'd like to know who it is.

Tommy S. ???

[Allen8R]

Maybe it would be a good idea to compare the same song rather than one that hasn't been played in 14 years with one that hasn;t been released and played for the first time This Year?

Nightrain 92

Nightrain 06

A8R

[Urlacher54]

As detail oriented as Axl is, one can only assume this is done on purpose.

[stupidjet]

off topic.....but man, i dont know how people says he's sounds liek crap these days...he sounds amazing. and since half of you werent alive in the late 80's, i think youre idiots. during the 92 tours, his voice broke up or sounded like crap. it's just how he is.

[W. AXL ROSE]

I found that in real life it's even harder to hear Axl, but it might be because I went to one of their open air gigs

[brock landers]

Here is a PERFECT comparison

this is 06-01-92

[Patience 4 Axl]

I wish they'd take more wide shots with the band in that Inland Invasion clip. Somebody's singing backup for Axl, and I'd like to know who it is. Everytime he pulls the mic away, there's somebody filling in for him.

I especially noticed that at the Vegas show.

Talking to people there afterwards who were standing at the back of the room, they said it almost sounded like a track.

[ThusSpakeTheSUPERGuru]

In Balto, overall the mix was very bright and brassy, and not particularly revealing of harmonies.

This might have been a function of where I was located? middle tier, right side. very close to the stage front.

But, since I know how clear Baz's vocals were, I definitely can say that my next comments are reflective of the GnR mix and not the arena:

When the concert started Axl's voice sounded rather thin, with the rasp coming through almost disembodied. I think they had that corrected by the middle of the song. However, on the loud parts of the new songs especially, his voice was really drowned out by the midrange frequencies in the sound. They need to fix that for the album (I am sure they did) and it would really be advisable to fix it live as well, especially when the album does drop and they start playing more new songs. The overall sound is now denser and the lyrics are getting lost.

[SWINGTRADER]

Axl voice is no longer as strong as it used to be. That is why he gets lost in the mix, Axl used to be able to over power any instrument regardless of the mix.

[axlslash]

With regards to the backing vox on Better, I am almost 100% sure that it's Mr. Finck. It sounds like the same voice on the Big Daddy mix of SCOM, and Robin is walking away from his mic after the first chorus, so that's my guess.

[ThusSpakeTheSUPERGuru]

Axl voice is no longer as strong as it used to be. That is why he gets lost in the mix, Axl used to be able to over power any instrument regardless of the mix.

Sorry to contradict, but as a singer, I can tell you that's not true. Voices cut through the mix because of certain frequencies present in the sound. For instance an opera singer generates harmonic frequencies around 2500Hz (If I remember the # right, it's referred to as the "singer's formant") that translate to our ears as a steely "ring" carrying the sound. This frequency is not generated by any orchestral instrument and that's what enables an opera singer, unmiked, to be heard over an orchestra.

In rock singing, the presence or absence of the "singer's formant" is irrelevant because the volume is jacked up so damn high that no normal human voice is gonna be heard. Therefore it is 100% in the hands of the sound guy to reduce instrument volumes in the harmonic ranges where the human voice is strongest, and then boost the shit outta the vocals. Sound guy has to carve out a space for voice. Sound guy also has to provide singer with good in-ear monitor quality so singer can hear self on stage and adjust accordingly. That's why Axl, a neurotic perfectionist, goes totally apeshit over sound problems and being unable to hear himself. (although a veteran rocker should be able to sing largely by the "feel", but that's damn hard to do ).

Axl may have a slightly different quality to his voice than he did in '92 UYI tour but if you're not hearing him, it's a function of the mix. Also, as I posted elsewhere, the band's sound is denser, now, with more guitar and more atmospherics. There's probably sounds being generated in the same frequency range as vox, which are obscuring it.

By the way, contrast the issues you hear now to the 2002 VMA "comeback" version of WTTJ. There, Axl -might- not have been at the top of his game and you can hear a difference in voice -quality- that made his sound drop off at times, clipping lyrics.

It was one of two things, either he was having issues sustaining the rasp, or else he was having technical problems hearing himself. But I don't hear that in the 06 recordings. he sounds great.

The most significant change is to the "purity" and "weight" of his sound and that has def. changed the most between '85 and '92 and maybe a little more between '92 and today. Male tenor voices naturally get heavier with age, and his is no exception. Also with all the drugs and alcohol and screaming, there's some dirt in the sound that wasn't there in the early days. But so what? It's very distinctive and very rock and roll. This isn't Pavarotti, for God's sake.

Edited November 15, 2006 by ThusSpakeTheSUPERGuru

[dablooz]

I saw GnR in Pittsburgh in 2002. I was so upset that I couldn't here Axl. I suspect it's intentional so that he doesn't have to worry about it so much. When he was speaking, he was completely inaudible. Really ruined the show for me. Saw them in Buffalo 1992 and I could here everything perfectly and it was awesome.

GU

[Guest Ohdistortedsmile1789]

As detail oriented as Axl is, one can only assume this is done on purpose.

Nice.

[Jackamo!]

Chris Pitman is too low in the mix

[brock landers]

I saw GnR in Pittsburgh in 2002. I was so upset that I couldn't here Axl. I suspect it's intentional so that he doesn't have to worry about it so much. When he was speaking, he was completely inaudible. Really ruined the show for me. Saw them in Buffalo 1992 and I could here everything perfectly and it was awesome.

GU

same for me in Chicago, 92 was clear as a bell, if you see the Youtube stuff from Chicago 92 that is EXACTLY as it was there...i won't even watch the 02 stuff, i was there then too and lost him probably at least 25% of the time..

i can only hope the 06 Allstate show improves on that.

[Manstis1604]

Axl voice is no longer as strong as it used to be. That is why he gets lost in the mix, Axl used to be able to over power any instrument regardless of the mix.

Yeah, and Axl knows this so he doesn't like to have his voice up too high, that way all problems can be blamed on the mix rather than his voice.

[SWINGTRADER]

I remember Howard Stern talking about the IRS leak and how he felt Axl's voice was put back in the mix on purpose. They said his voice no longer had the power it once did and it looked that they were trying to hide it. I also felt the same way about the "Oh MY God" track, his vocals were weak. All you have to do is go listen to the old demos and albums and compare them to the new leaks etc. Axl's vocals have taken a back seat. GNR is not GNR wihout Axl's vocals being the main instrument.

[Estranged Reality]

He's older. His voice doesn't have the same power as it used to. That's all. He's changed the way he sings because of that. But you'll notice when he does the "rasp" now, it's not as full and deep as in the early '90s. There's this thing called "getting older." It happens to everyone, even great singers.

Also, they have four guitarists on stage, a keyboardist, a synth player, extravagant pyro, and who knows what else. There is more stuff going on. It's harder to overpower the other sounds. Axl struggles with his mic feed all the time because of this - the other stuff drowns him out.

I do think they should readjust some of the mixing, because even if his voice is weaker, he has moments when the feed is good and his voice is really nice and clear - like on Rock am Ring's Nightrain, which was the best vocal performance I think he's given in years.

[Leisure Rules]

What do you think has changed his voice over the years, drug usage is for sure and cigarettes as well. What about change of psychology? Do you think that this could lead to different Axl voices?

[Allen8R]

Axl voice is no longer as strong as it used to be. That is why he gets lost in the mix, Axl used to be able to over power any instrument regardless of the mix.

Sorry to contradict, but as a singer, I can tell you that's not true. Voices cut through the mix because of certain frequencies present in the sound. For instance an opera singer generates harmonic frequencies around 2500Hz (If I remember the # right, it's referred to as the "singer's formant") that translate to our ears as a steely "ring" carrying the sound. This frequency is not generated by any orchestral instrument and that's what enables an opera singer, unmiked, to be heard over an orchestra.

In rock singing, the presence or absence of the "singer's formant" is irrelevant because the volume is jacked up so damn high that no normal human voice is gonna be heard. Therefore it is 100% in the hands of the sound guy to reduce instrument volumes in the harmonic ranges where the human voice is strongest, and then boost the shit outta the vocals. Sound guy has to carve out a space for voice. Sound guy also has to provide singer with good in-ear monitor quality so singer can hear self on stage and adjust accordingly. That's why Axl, a neurotic perfectionist, goes totally apeshit over sound problems and being unable to hear himself. (although a veteran rocker should be able to sing largely by the "feel", but that's damn hard to do ).

Axl may have a slightly different quality to his voice than he did in '92 UYI tour but if you're not hearing him, it's a function of the mix. Also, as I posted elsewhere, the band's sound is denser, now, with more guitar and more atmospherics. There's probably sounds being generated in the same frequency range as vox, which are obscuring it.

By the way, contrast the issues you hear now to the 2002 VMA "comeback" version of WTTJ. There, Axl -might- not have been at the top of his game and you can hear a difference in voice -quality- that made his sound drop off at times, clipping lyrics.

It was one of two things, either he was having issues sustaining the rasp, or else he was having technical problems hearing himself. But I don't hear that in the 06 recordings. he sounds great.

The most significant change is to the "purity" and "weight" of his sound and that has def. changed the most between '85 and '92 and maybe a little more between '92 and today. Male tenor voices naturally get heavier with age, and his is no exception. Also with all the drugs and alcohol and screaming, there's some dirt in the sound that wasn't there in the early days. But so what? It's very distinctive and very rock and roll. This isn't Pavarotti, for God's sake.

That was a very informative post. You should copy and paste it in it's own thread, it answered alot of questions I had in my mind about Axl's voice. Onr thing I wold like to point out is that there is no qurstion about the 02 performance, he was waaaaay off. But I wondered about the rest of the 02 tour and the whole Mickey Mouse thing. He has some rasp at times, but still real realy high pitched and weird.

A8R

[Almost Famous]

Axl voice is no longer as strong as it used to be. That is why he gets lost in the mix, Axl used to be able to over power any instrument regardless of the mix.

Sorry to contradict, but as a singer, I can tell you that's not true. Voices cut through the mix because of certain frequencies present in the sound. For instance an opera singer generates harmonic frequencies around 2500Hz (If I remember the # right, it's referred to as the "singer's formant") that translate to our ears as a steely "ring" carrying the sound. This frequency is not generated by any orchestral instrument and that's what enables an opera singer, unmiked, to be heard over an orchestra.

In rock singing, the presence or absence of the "singer's formant" is irrelevant because the volume is jacked up so damn high that no normal human voice is gonna be heard. Therefore it is 100% in the hands of the sound guy to reduce instrument volumes in the harmonic ranges where the human voice is strongest, and then boost the shit outta the vocals. Sound guy has to carve out a space for voice. Sound guy also has to provide singer with good in-ear monitor quality so singer can hear self on stage and adjust accordingly. That's why Axl, a neurotic perfectionist, goes totally apeshit over sound problems and being unable to hear himself. (although a veteran rocker should be able to sing largely by the "feel", but that's damn hard to do ).

Axl may have a slightly different quality to his voice than he did in '92 UYI tour but if you're not hearing him, it's a function of the mix. Also, as I posted elsewhere, the band's sound is denser, now, with more guitar and more atmospherics. There's probably sounds being generated in the same frequency range as vox, which are obscuring it.

By the way, contrast the issues you hear now to the 2002 VMA "comeback" version of WTTJ. There, Axl -might- not have been at the top of his game and you can hear a difference in voice -quality- that made his sound drop off at times, clipping lyrics.

It was one of two things, either he was having issues sustaining the rasp, or else he was having technical problems hearing himself. But I don't hear that in the 06 recordings. he sounds great.

The most significant change is to the "purity" and "weight" of his sound and that has def. changed the most between '85 and '92 and maybe a little more between '92 and today. Male tenor voices naturally get heavier with age, and his is no exception. Also with all the drugs and alcohol and screaming, there's some dirt in the sound that wasn't there in the early days. But so what? It's very distinctive and very rock and roll. This isn't Pavarotti, for God's sake.

Man, you make some amazing posts that almost always hit the nail on the head.

[lame ass security]

Axl voice is no longer as strong as it used to be. That is why he gets lost in the mix, Axl used to be able to over power any instrument regardless of the mix.

Not true. I saw Guns on their '92 tour with Metallica and Axl's voice was badly lost in the mix. This is by no means something new. I tend to believe that Axl wants it this way or it would have been corrected long ago.