So What Happened?

[AxlCorp]

i like this thread - a discussion that takes into account potential real-world realities.

how about this spin on it:

Axl wants to tour, he loves to tour, and PART OF HIM also wants to release the album. So he knows Universal is on his back to make them some money, so he agrees (in principal) to the album, and also plans the tour.

Then - when the time approaches to actually release his little baby (the CD) he realizes, for whatever reason, that he's not ready for it to be out there. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that he's not geeked about the album's release - or he would be talking about it and blaming someone else for the delay - which he isn't doing. Axl doesn't keep things to himself - we all know this. Could be a ton of different reasons why he isn't ready (all discussed ad noseum on this board) - he doesn't think it's good enough, he is worried that this is going to be the album that either puts him back on the map or sentences him to a life of being inconsequential, he got some mixed reviews from the boards on the bootleg stuff, deep down he really wants more time to make it better or get the old band back together or get a better supporting cast, whatever.

So while part of him REALLY wants the CD released, another part of him is screaming "NOOOOOO!" So here come the excuses and delays, etc. The band members change - so they have to re-record some stuff, the artwork isn't good enough, the marketing plan it broken because of the delays, whatever.

On the other side - maybe even the execs at Universal are contributing to the hold-off on the CD. Maybe they are holding out for a possible band reunion (they know they would make a TON more money that way). Maybe they think it's not good enough. Maybe they don't want to invest another penny in marketting a band that is now nothing more than Axl and some hired hands, whatever.

Put all that together, and you end up with delays and a situation where no one is blaming the other guy becuase both sides are contributing to the delay. Factor in the legal angle that no one wants to give the other guy stuff to use in a lawsuit, and here we are.

Seems plausible, no?

I think you are spot on as to Axl's fears and excuses. He has a history of blaming everyone for his lack of good judgement. I think he had all intentions, but shit happened that delayed it and now he needs to blame someone...the thing is, he always uses excuses based in some kind of truth. I do think Universal is playing games to recoup money or protect themselves on a lawsuit.

[ohyesindeed]

I'll go re-recorded it at a new studio. I am not sure of the legalities..but if Axl doesn't want to release the new music, he probably doesn't have to and Universal probably can't do it without his consent...he might have a final approval clause...unlike the Greatest Hits situation.

Axl can't release music under the Guns N'Roses name without Universal's approval.

Some years ago, Prince had to change his name and play as "The artist formerly known as Prince"...

prince did that on his own freewill to piss off his label.....not because he "had" to......

axl may or may not be stalling this reecord on his own freewill to piss off universal......

my thoughts:

if there was any mutiny between the gnr/universal camp, it would have leaked out by now. furthermore, if there was any reason why the record was delayed that was out of axl's control, i imagine he would be ranting about it at the shows, or would have leaked the info to the press....he really looks like a big goof right now because of this bullshit. i imagine the delay is probably has more to do with his personal neurosis, and maybe with the fact that merck left sanctuary.....

Edited December 6, 2006 by ohyesindeed

[AxlCorp]

How would Merck leaving Sanctuary affect the release date? Not too familiar with the details on this.

[Estranged Reality]

Holy Shit, that's absolutely true, Universal might be saying that you can't just release this album without promotions cause we already spent too much money on it, therefore, wait till '07 so we can do it right. Axl's like, fuck you, I told everyone '06. Universal says sorry buddy, but you spoke too soon. That's very possible.

I hate to tell you, but that's not how it works. Axl isn't talking to Universal.

Universal Canada said they had no knowledge of a GN'R release this year. I think it's pretty obvious what has happened.

Axl has unresolved legal issues stemming from the 2002 cancellation. He cost Clear Channel promotions millions of dollars. They probably gave him an ultimatum: go on tour again so we can recoup losses, or pay us out of pocket for the millions you cost us on the tour.

So they put some leaks on the Internet. They got interest going. Axl reappeared, began promoting a mysterious long-awaited album by saying "this is the year." They went on tour with the hype of the Internet tracks having leaked.

What I find odd - and what I've found odd since earlier this year - is that whenever Axl is probed about the album, he seems ashamed to discuss it. You'd think they're asking him some ultra-personal question about a dead relative or something. He almost gets an attitude with interviewers, like, "Stop asking me this." Such as at the VMAs, when he let out a huge sigh and was like, "Yes, this is the year," and avoided eye contact, and basically made it known that he was done talking about it.

Why, if you're going to release an album, would you go out of your way NOT to promote it? It boggles me.

Even with a surprise release strategy, it doesn't make sense. And people say he's playing the old songs for old fans who aren't aware of new songs - THEN WHY DOESN'T HE INTRODUCE THE NEW SONGS AT LIVE SHOWS? He just starts playing them without saying anything. He doesn't say, "This is a song called BETTER from our new album CHINESE DEMOCRACY, which is coming out this year!"

If he were trying to get people to buy it, this would be perfect opportunity to let OLD fans know that it's coming out this year, and it would help promote it.

He doesn't do any of that. I find that very strange.

I think this has all been planned well in advance, and I don't think we are going to have an album this year.

I did have full optimism up until the end of September, which is when I started to grow worried, because there's no way you can release a major label record with less than - what are we at, now, three weeks? That's insane. No way it's possible.

Axl, despite what you may think, is not in charge of the album's release. Universal is. And they want nothing more than to release it. They released Greatest Hits BECAUSE Axl didn't hand over the album to them for release.

So, we'll see. Three weeks, Axl. If you don't deliver then there are going to be a lot of angry fans on these forums.

I do agree with the idea that Axl does have serious legal issues stemming from the 2002 debacle...And I also agree that it is just really fucking wierd that he does not introduce the new songs at the shows...I mean, jesus christ-even 100% nostalgia acts still introduce new songs at shows...Its the oldest joke in the book, how rock fans cringe when acts like the Stones, after tearing through Jumpin Jack Flash and Satisfaction, say "heres one from our newest album..."

But the question I still want answered is: How the fuck does the Harley Ad tie into all of this? I mean, Harley and Universal had to work together on the Ad...Jarmo and Merck didnt just slap it together after a fisting session....Thats the one thing I really cant figure out...If it werent for that Ad, I'd say yah, its all BS and the tour is just a cash grab for a legally in-debted Axl....Oh and if anyone has a ton of free time, you could prob. check out legal actions pending against Axl using the Freedom of Information Act (maybe?)

DISCLAIMER: This is all my opinion. Don't take it as fact and don't bash me for voicing what I think is going on, please. I'm just saying this from what I've gathered, because I am skeptical.

I think the Harley ad is something that fell through because Axl pulled out.

I think Merck wants the album out. I think Merck is the one who lights the torch under Axl's ass. So does Beta.

Axl was ready to walk at Download. Remember when he said "We'll be right back, we're having technical difficulties"? He stormed off stage and wasn't planning on coming back.

Beta literally would not let him leave. This was posted on HTGTH a while ago, someone backstage saw it happen. It wasn't denied by Merck when he was asked about it. I think he refused to comment.

According to what was said then, Axl was swearing and yelling at Beta about how he was going to go sit in the helicopter and refuse to go back on stage, and she wouldn't let him past her. She told him if he walked that he'd be fucked for good and she calmed him down enough to get back on stage.

Remember when he got arrested in Sweden? He was arguing with Beta. I think she was, once again, trying to talk sense into him. He was drunk, and according to hotel staff - who had complained about his behavior to Beta - he was becoming rowdy and making a mess with the party. Beta, I think, tried to tell him this and he was drunk and overreacted and started screaming and yelling at her.

Axl still has behavioral issues, and I think this is affecting the album. Beta and Merck are the ones who understand that this tour is essential to keep him out of trouble. They realize the album needs to come out.

I think Merck arranged the Harley-Davidson ad and then Axl decided afterwards that he didn't want to do it, so it got pulled. Why else? Harley didn't pull it - they're still airing the Paradise City one. And Merck said on HTGTH that it's still going to happen sometime in the future.

I think Merck convinced Axl to go back on tour because of the Clear Channel thing. I think he convinced Axl to release the album this year.

And I think, once again, Axl is having second doubts and trying to pull out at the last minute - just like before. I think the album was ready in 2004 and he pulled out.

This is what I think, and I'm just speculating, but it's what I think. Based on things that have been said, and knowing Axl's behavior in the past and present.

Merck and Beta are demonized on this forum, but I think that without them, we wouldn't have even had a tour this year - at all.

Edited December 6, 2006 by Estranged Reality

[AxlCorp]

You might be right about Axl wanting to walk out, but there's no way Merck can pressure Axl to give a release date though. I think everyone thought it would get done.."we just need to clean this up and clean this up" and Axl's perfectionism got the best of him and they ran out of time. You have to remember that Axl is still getting criticised for UYI. It was a great CD, but all the critics call it Bloated!. I think Axl hates that.

[jaypayton]

There is no way Axl has finished the album and universal is the reason behind the delay..Cuz if that was true Axl would have been ranting about how the album is done and Universal is the problem...You think Axl likes being the scapegoat..If it was on Universal's head Axl would be the first to let everyone know that.........On the spring '91 tour he would rant and rave about Geffen pressuring them for UYI etc etc...Its on Axl's head and Axl's head alone.....

[AxlCorp]

There is no way Axl has finished the album and universal is the reason behind the delay..Cuz if that was true Axl would have been ranting about how the album is done and Universal is the problem...You think Axl likes being the scapegoat..If it was on Universal's head Axl would be the first to let everyone know that.........On the spring '91 tour he would rant and rave about Geffen pressuring them for UYI etc etc...Its on Axl's head and Axl's head alone.....

You are right about that, he would bitch about it. But there's got to be a legal issue we don't know about.

[Estranged Reality]

You might be right about Axl wanting to walk out, but there's no way Merck can pressure Axl to give a release date though. I think everyone thought it would get done.."we just need to clean this up and clean this up" and Axl's perfectionism got the best of him and they ran out of time. You have to remember that Axl is still getting criticised for UYI. It was a great CD, but all the critics call it Bloated!. I think Axl hates that.

No, what I mean is, I think Merck really got on Axl's case and convinced him that this was the year to release the album. I think Axl went along with it, grudgingly, but not on his own accord.

I don't think Axl still resents the UYI reception. He said himself that he thinks the videos are pretty bloated nowadays. I think Axl is just pissed off in general at the reception he's been getting in the US. Compared to Europe it hasn't been the same, but that's predictable since GN'r have a stronger reputation overseas.

I think if they were on tour in Europe right now, Axl would have agreed on a release date by now. I think the US tour got him down again. Press has been worse, there have been poorer ticket sales in general - and lots of people bashing him in the media. I think this stuff affects him a lot, and he's said so in the past that he reads what the media says about him and takes it personally back in the early '90s. Pretty obvious based on his extreme rants against the press back then.

[AxlCorp]

I agree..he's a very sensitive boy. He reads message boards for fuck sakes and then comments on them. I don't know too many artists who let on to that. I do think the reason he says the Videos for UYI are bloated is cause he's trying to diffuse the criticism by agreeing with it...he is embarrassed. Don't forget, he thought at the time, these will stand the test of time, and so far they are not...although I think some will...so that's a crushing blow to the ego. This is the main reason why he is claiming only 12-13 tracks on C.D. and that he is going with the no-promo angle. He wants to emulate AFD instead.

[Lukinx]

You are right about that, he would bitch about it. But there's got to be a legal issue we don't know about.

I think the worst thing is, that if they KNOW the album WON´T be out this year they´re keeping it to themselves instead of explaining the delay (even if it would be a bullshit explanation it´s better than nothing). Knowing Merck we will probably get the excuse very late, like in 2007, when we already know it didn´t come out in 2006 (duh!). I think people would take it better if they told them at the time they knew that the album wouldn´t come out they´d release a statement explaining it instead of keeping peoples hopes up and make them real disapointed when the end of 2006 is here and we still have no album (which I think is gonna be the case). The only reason why they´re delaying the information is that they´re afraid that a press release saying the album is not coming out in 2006 will lower ticket sales for the remaining dates of the tour. At least, that´s my guess.

Edited December 6, 2006 by Lukinx

[Kaneda]

Can anyone really blame Universal? Axl Rose has been a fucking thorn in their side for 14 years? Imagine investing millions in something and you get shit return on your investment...that's what it is like for them to work with Axl. I am sure Universal has a ton of artist willing to play ball and do things the right way...in struts Axl Rose, a man that hasn't had a hit album since 1992, a man that can't sell out a 1/3 of the arena's he used to, a man that is impossible to work with, a man that's hired and fired more people than George Steinbrener...

But before we all start blaming Universal, this 100% Axl's fault...people, it's December 2006 for christ's sake, Axl has been working on this album since 1998...it's probably STILL NOT DONE!! The fact that it's not going to be out in December 2006 is 100% Axl's fault.

[AxlCorp]

It is 100% Axl's fault. But not necessarily cause he is lazy or scared. He could be playing a political game to get out of contract obligations or lawsuit cases.

[Estranged Reality]

Can anyone really blame Universal? Axl Rose has been a fucking thorn in their side for 14 years? Imagine investing millions in something and you get shit return on your investment...that's what it is like for them to work with Axl. I am sure Universal has a ton of artist willing to play ball and do things the right way...in struts Axl Rose, a man that hasn't had a hit album since 1992, a man that can't sell out a 1/3 of the arena's he used to, a man that is impossible to work with, a man that's hired and fired more people than George Steinbrener...

But before we all start blaming Universal, this 100% Axl's fault...people, it's December 2006 for christ's sake, Axl has been working on this album since 1998...it's probably STILL NOT DONE!! The fact that it's not going to be out in December 2006 is 100% Axl's fault.

Universal cut funding, didn't they? Geffen dropped him in 2004. That's why the rumor about them trying to cut off their contract with him wouldn't surprise me if it's true.

I'm not trying to be a negative Nancy, but since we're this close to the end of the year with no album, I am starting to have different ponderings race through my mind. I was very optimistic earlier this year, but now I feel very confused and frankly rather sad. I had really hoped to hear it this year.

[AxlCorp]

Ticket Sales is the exact reason for no-word on a no 2006 release announcement. Frankly, who cares if it is 06 or early 07...you are talking about months now, not years...so as long as they explain it...even

Sorry, we thought we were done but I wanted to add some vocals. That'd be fine. But say something.

[Takeshi]

The reality is that there isn't a single shred of evidence that there are any legal problems that are preventing Axl from releasing the album. The problems with Clear Channel were four years ago and there isn't any evidence that they lost millions of dollars, as a matter of fact it was claimed at the time that they pulled the plug on the tour to stop those huge losses, and any legal fall out from that would have been already dealt with. As for the record company, we can create hypothesizes to somehow remove all blame from Axl for the delays and pretend that he's working tirelessly to get the album released but it's the big bad record company that's to blame.

It's possible to create hypothetical scenarios that might be happening, but unless their is some evidence to base them upon, then it's all just hot air. There has been plenty of evidence over the years that the sole reason for the delay in releasing not only CD but the delays in releasing UYI were down to Axl.

[Estranged Reality]

The reality is that there isn't a single shred of evidence that there are any legal problems that are preventing Axl from releasing the album. The problems with Clear Channel were four years ago and there isn't any evidence that they lost millions of dollars, as a matter of fact it was claimed at the time that they pulled the plug on the tour to stop those huge losses, and any legal fall out from that would have been already dealt with. As for the record company, we can create hypothesizes to somehow remove all blame from Axl for the delays and pretend that he's working tirelessly to get the album released but it's the big bad record company that's to blame.

It's possible to create hypothetical scenarios that might be happening, but unless their is some evidence to base them upon, then it's all just hot air. There has been plenty of evidence over the years that the sole reason for the delay in releasing not only CD but the delays in releasing UYI were down to Axl.

I made it very clear that what I was offering was merely speculation and not based on any factual evidence.

That said, Axl himself said on Trunk that there were still unresolved legal issues with Clear Channel that he couldn't talk about at all. I think they pulled the plug to prevent further losses, but by doing so, he would have cost them the millions they had invested up front. Tours are very expensive for major label bands. When you withdrawal from a tour, regardless of whether you're saving more money down the road, there's still a lot that you would initially lose.

[kyrie]

The reality is that there isn't a single shred of evidence that there are any legal problems that are preventing Axl from releasing the album. The problems with Clear Channel were four years ago and there isn't any evidence that they lost millions of dollars, as a matter of fact it was claimed at the time that they pulled the plug on the tour to stop those huge losses, and any legal fall out from that would have been already dealt with. As for the record company, we can create hypothesizes to somehow remove all blame from Axl for the delays and pretend that he's working tirelessly to get the album released but it's the big bad record company that's to blame.

It's possible to create hypothetical scenarios that might be happening, but unless their is some evidence to base them upon, then it's all just hot air. There has been plenty of evidence over the years that the sole reason for the delay in releasing not only CD but the delays in releasing UYI were down to Axl.

Exactly.

Add to that that Jimmy Iovine and certain forces at Universal were pushing for a Spring 2007 release date for better marketing and it was GNR/Management who wanted 2006 and what do you get?

The CD will be out when it's out.

[AxlCorp]

I agree, wherever Axl is, there are legal issues. The clear channel thing isn't resolved. It's not necessarily that they lost money...it's that they didn't make as much as they thought they would due to the cancellation, it's all about projections and shares. Universal probably wants a Spring Release. GnR probably now wants a Spring Release too. So why haven't they said that? Cause we'd be laughing and calling bullshit and so would the rest of the world. They are sooo fucked! They have to blame someone. but who?

[dragan78]

after all shit, | just cant believe that you blame

Universal for delaying the album

are you really deaf,dumb,blind????

how about this...

1)Axl promised in 2002 - we've got a lot of songs,

songs we are playing wont be on the album,so if

Uncle Axl promises not to be an asshole, we will

release 3 ALBUMS... I think the story goes very similar

to this.I think he said it in London 2002....

so you said - he let down some leaks so Universal cant

sue him for doing nothing(where are the rest of the 30 songs

he promised????)

2)Universal spent xxx millions $ on CD, he's got billions

of cash from other groups or what so ever,so you think

they really give a fuck about CD and losing "loose change"

they have invested??? even if they realase CD and sales

dont go so good,they will lose max 5mill $ and its nothing

for the major companies like them

3)you are all worried about promotions of CD. Where is the video,

official release date,nothing official,they are just playing the gigs?

Why are you worried? Universal invested money and they dont do shit

about forcing Axl to release CD... THEY ARE NOT WORRIED!!!!!

4)personally, Axl is too affraid,he didnt solve the issues with his demons

and I think that he acts like a godamn cunt for letting us

down for the album,and I know we've got still 25 days, but really,

I am not sure for this year

if he doesnt release it in 2006,well he will lose a lot

I know some of U are gonna hate

[D-GenerationX]

I agree. A lot of sense being made here for a change.

[BrianD]

Those of you talking about poor ticket sales: what you're trying to say is we're not going to see a new record until Axl is selling out stadiums again? Not possible with this lineup, and quite franky... might not be possible with a reunion. A large portion of the current crowds think they're coming to see the original lineup. Del James mentioned us as a "small portion" of the GNR fanbase. No, we're the only fanbase of the current GnR. Without the internet, not many people would even know who the hell was even in the band right now, and would have a harder time researching as to who the new members are.

Axl is going to have to take his audience as it is, and try to build upon it with new music.

[Chris Axl]

its out soon

06' isnt over

[AxlCorp]

Those of you talking about poor ticket sales: what you're trying to say is we're not going to see a new record until Axl is selling out stadiums again? Not possible with this lineup, and quite franky... might not be possible with a reunion. A large portion of the current crowds think they're coming to see the original lineup. Del James mentioned us as a "small portion" of the GNR fanbase. No, we're the only fanbase of the current GnR. Without the internet, not many people would even know who the hell was even in the band right now, and would have a harder time researching as to who the new members are.

Axl is going to have to take his audience as it is, and try to build upon it with new music.

I agree, but what I was trying to say is that some of the fans are thinking of buying tickets because they heard that a new album was coming out. Kind of like a comeback tour ...again. If they say that the album is delayed again, they might risk losing some potential buyers.

[Estranged Reality]

its out soon

06' isnt over

You honestly believe a $15 million, major-label album will be out in under three weeks?

[D-GenerationX]

I agree, wherever Axl is, there are legal issues. The clear channel thing isn't resolved. It's not necessarily that they lost money...it's that they didn't make as much as they thought they would due to the cancellation, it's all about projections and shares. Universal probably wants a Spring Release. GnR probably now wants a Spring Release too. So why haven't they said that? Cause we'd be laughing and calling bullshit and so would the rest of the world. They are sooo fucked! They have to blame someone. but who?

Hard to dispute, right here.