Honesty and respect

[wasted]

that is pretty true about the mystique - it does work even tho it is bullshit. but also if you ever tried to make something yourself sometimes its hard to talk about it, you can't do it if your blahing about it. They could be a little bit more straight and just say sorry no go, again. But for all we know Axl is flying about screaming at people to get it out on time and will fight til the end but in the midst of the fight hes not gonna log on and hey guys im trying...who knows who has the final say, the label i would say...but if axl wont hand over the thing then they cant release it can they...only time u can be sure is when universal exec says something like we got it he cant stop us!!!

[Old School]

dude, I was with you till you said sad state of affairs, jesus dude, two sellouts in a row, playing 2 1/2 hours shows, high energy, gotta disagree, maybe a bit frustrating, but not sad man.

For christ sake, is there anything I can say right for you? I said "in many ways", not everything but several things are sad. Many here would agree with me that in regards to Chinese Democracy it's pretty sad. If you think I'm in the minority here I guarantee you the rest of the world outside of here finds Axl and CD one sad fucking story.

[blackvelvet]

In my view, the only reason they said that it will be released this year is to sell concert tickets. There will be no album release - this whole facade was designed for a final cash grab on the gnr name. After this - gnr is over. Axl and co. has destroyed gnr, his own career and the bands careers. Robin, Tommy Richard etc - they will foever be tied to this horrible debacle and forever ridiculed.

[Kollemann99]

100% agree.great post.

[blackvelvet]

I want to make a point to Madison. You like this bakery right. YOuve been going there for years and theyve got really nice food. Sure they dont owe you any kind of courteousy or manners because thats not what your buying - but its good business and good PR that they do treat you nice and they do keep their promises - like when you expect your favourite beef pie to be there every morning - they dont have to have it ready for you but they do. Thats respect two ways. You are loyal to them - so they return the favour. Its the same in this situation. Axl sells and product that we buy - and we keep buying it because we like it but also because we are loyal. The feeling SHOULD be mutual. Big lesson needs to be learnt here.

[M_B]

i think the album will be out this year. i find it hard to believe they'd have that little respect towards us. and you're right ER, it is about respect.

if they dont release it and give some half arsed excuse soon, its too late - a lot of people have said they dont believe it's out this year, so the "apology" will be too little too late. surely the managment and the band can see they'd lose a lot of fans by not releasing it, and not giving us any communication....they cant be that stupid. that's why im holding out for an 06 release. if im wrong, then im truly stumped.

[Lukinx]

The single worst thing if the album doesn´t come out this year is that they know about that this very moment and still haven´t put out a press release saying so. They don´t care if the fans are hoping for a release only to have that bit of hope crushed come the end of the year. If they really want us to buy an excuse they should´ve put out a press release the SECOND they knew something had happened to delay the release of the record. But knowing Merck there will be a lame ass excuse at the end of the year or even in 2007 (when we all already know the album didnt come out) and that is just not gonna fly this time. They really need to get their heads out of their asses and understand that we aren´t sheep that will take any kind of treatment and still follow the herd.

Edited December 8, 2006 by Lukinx

[M_B]

The single wrost thing if the album diesn´t come out this year is that they know about at this very moment and still haven´t put out a press release saying so. They don´t care if the fans are hoping for a release only to have that bit of hope crushed come the end of the year. If they really want us to buy an excuse they should´ve put out a press release the SECOND they knew something had happened to delay the release of the record. Bur knowing Merck there will be a lame ass excuse at the end of the year or even in 2007 (when we all already know the album didnt come out) and that is just not gonna fly this time. They really need to get their heads out of their asses and understand that we aren´t sheep that will take any kind of treatment and still follow the herd.

thats exactly why i think itl'll be released this year. seriously, how can they be that stupid! they read the boards, they know how people feel; they'd lose a lot of fans and they can't afford that. 06

[LeighR]

The original post is a good one, and like I've said before, management are very quick to shut down the Tommy bass throwing incident, or rebutt EODM claims but don't have the balls to make a statement on CD. The silent launch before Christmas is possible, but I feel sure that someone somewhere would have said something.

By the way Estranged Reality, I hope your sig is ironic; how on earth can Chris Pitman be the 'heart and soul of Guns n Roses'? I think the anus is more appropriate

[Guest]

The single worst thing if the album doesn´t come out this year is that they know about that this very moment and still haven´t put out a press release saying so. They don´t care if the fans are hoping for a release only to have that bit of hope crushed come the end of the year. If they really want us to buy an excuse they should´ve put out a press release the SECOND they knew something had happened to delay the release of the record. But knowing Merck there will be a lame ass excuse at the end of the year or even in 2007 (when we all already know the album didnt come out) and that is just not gonna fly this time. They really need to get their heads out of their asses and understand that we aren´t sheep that will take any kind of treatment and still follow the herd.

Yeah but let's face it mate.... we are. We've been through this position so many times- so many release dates flown by throughout the years and still no Chinese Democracy. Yet we're still here.

I do agree we deserve respect for being loyal for all these years and yes we are treated like crap... but can you blame them when they've got such a loyal fanbase? We take this kind of shit year after year and still support the band. They know they don't have to say anything because at the end of the day- on January 01st 2007, we'll still be here and if CD isn't released in 2007... we'll be on here January 01st 2008.

[Lukinx]

The single worst thing if the album doesn´t come out this year is that they know about that this very moment and still haven´t put out a press release saying so. They don´t care if the fans are hoping for a release only to have that bit of hope crushed come the end of the year. If they really want us to buy an excuse they should´ve put out a press release the SECOND they knew something had happened to delay the release of the record. But knowing Merck there will be a lame ass excuse at the end of the year or even in 2007 (when we all already know the album didnt come out) and that is just not gonna fly this time. They really need to get their heads out of their asses and understand that we aren´t sheep that will take any kind of treatment and still follow the herd.

Yeah but let's face it mate.... we are. We've been through this position so many times- so many release dates flown by throughout the years and still no Chinese Democracy. Yet we're still here.

I do agree we deserve respect for being loyal for all these years and yes we are treated like crap... but can you blame them when they've got such a loyal fanbase? We take this kind of shit year after year and still support the band. They know they don't have to say anything because at the end of the day- on January 01st 2007, we'll still be here and if CD isn't released in 2007... we'll be on here January 01st 2008.

I´ll probably shop lift the CD if it drops in 2007. Screw supporting them financial.

Edited December 8, 2006 by Lukinx

[madison]

I want to make a point to Madison. You like this bakery right. YOuve been going there for years and theyve got really nice food. Sure they dont owe you any kind of courteousy or manners because thats not what your buying - but its good business and good PR that they do treat you nice and they do keep their promises - like when you expect your favourite beef pie to be there every morning - they dont have to have it ready for you but they do. Thats respect two ways. You are loyal to them - so they return the favour. Its the same in this situation. Axl sells and product that we buy - and we keep buying it because we like it but also because we are loyal. The feeling SHOULD be mutual. Big lesson needs to be learnt here.

Interesting analogy BV, but let me take it one step further. If you liked that bakery because nobody else created food like that bakery, would you then insult the baker who made the food or burn down the bakery altogether just because your food wasn't on time? *I love analogies* ...

[wasted]

Well it's not quite as simple as that. People love this treatment. Axl is seen as more for real. He's told the fans directly on a number of occassions what he thinks about this and that. He told don't wait, not soon. He's not gonna come out and say I'm just a little wary about it but you know been as cautious as possible without completely saying No Soup For You.

[D-GenerationX]

If they treated their fans well then I can guarantee there would be a lot less so-called "hating" on all the forums. If they just treated us with the smallest ounce of honesty and respect, there would be a big change in the general attitude here.

Totally agree here.

Its why the Del James thing went over so poorly. The first even quasi-official statement from "inside" and its to tell people they need to get a life? That sort of thing is going to go over like a lead ballon when its all you have. If you had consistent communication from Axl or the band, maybe that article could be attributed to being Del's opinion alone.

But its not. Del was essentially given talking points and sold them. So, in reality, that was a statement from Axl.

[Let And Let Live]

"However, what I will be upset about is if they string us along until December 24th and then announce, "Oh, gee, everybody, whoops! Guess it isn't happening. Here's our excuse."

You know, if they are aware of the status of the album right now, THEY SHOULD RESPECT THEIR FANS enough to tell them the truth."

so you wanna hear something like this : "sorry guys but axl is bat shit crazy and paranoid and i'll doubt we'll ever see it"

but seriously, i doubt we will get a "good excuse", maybe just some more tour promotion or something pretty trivial, its very sad that we as fans have to "look forward" to a statement - one which will probably be giving the news we all dread - communication is commen curtesy in my book, obviously axl and co. read different literature.

[GET OFF AXLS BACK]

I posted this in another thread but it fits well here!

This may come as a shock to people who have read my username but Axl and Merck are a discrace.

Im not really waiting for CD but i don't appreciate being lied to then the people doing making no comment on the situation.We are your fan base and as a rule you don't bend your fanbase over and do them dry.You have this attitude that the best way to comment is to try and censor fans views and opinions.This is just another way of the band and management keeping people from asking the questions they don't know the answer to.

If you wish this band to become a joke ( a bit late ) thats your choice but the fans of this once great band are becoming a joke.You don't owe us CD but you do owe us an explanation for the broken promises and blatent lie's.

Merck and Axl are the biggest fucking frauds on ther planet, but im sure they will spin this to another poor fucker, maybe its Brains fault, or a fire marshalls, or some other mean fucker rolleyes.gif

Your pathetic, i love you but you are becoming a discrace .

Rant over rofl-lol.gif

[D-GenerationX]

Im not really waiting for CD but i don't appreciate being lied to then the people doing making no comment on the situation.We are your fan base and as a rule you don't bend your fanbase over and do them dry.

And how could you not feel that way at this point? Even some of the true believers have to admit, maybe just a little bit deep down, they are tired of all this silence.

Edited December 8, 2006 by D-GenerationX

[Lukinx]

On the topic of "Honesty and respect" between fans and artists I just listened to the last show for this 2006 leg of the Pearl Jam tour and man it gives you the shivers because this band is feeding from their fans and the fans are alway there for them. It´s mutual respect and it´s always great! Listen to this live version of "Better Man" from the last show of 2006 and hear the crowd take over and singing the parts:

http://s9.quicksharing.com/v/4143176/17_Better_Man.mp3.html

Makes me warm inside! And all the talking Vedder does during the show, always making sure he pays his respect to the fans and the crew that works on their sets. He even mentions how cool it is and how happy it makes the band that so many people have followed them around on the tour and gone to more than one show! This band is amazing! GN´R have something to learn!

Edited December 8, 2006 by Lukinx

[fred_carston]

gnr lies

[Axl_morris]

Haha, I couldn't help but laugh when I read you're serious post (which i completely agree with) then read you're sig.

If I was Merck, I would say "Cheeky bastard doesn't deserve news, saying that about our pitman... Also, there is 3 tuesdays in 2006, it is one of them"

[Elnombre]

Some people are not going to believe that 2006 is no longer feasible no matter how much you explain your points. But hopefully we can agree that if December 18th is a possibility, we will hear something in the next few days. I think we are in for another disappointment. from what I've heard, Nov. 26th was planned as of late September, and when that fell through, December 18th was quickly pencilled in. When stores like HMV began reporting that the Dec 17th (in UK) release had been deleted, it became pretty clear that things had fallen through for the millionth time.

Stores are tight for shelf space and display space over Christmas and most already have it planned out. December 26th would be a terrible day to release the album - it would be lost in the shuffle. In the UK January sales begin Dec 26th. Again, no shelf space, no room for promo.

Online stores like Amazon make up a huge percentage of sales these days. They would require 7 days notice - 3 for ordering, 4 for processing - to get things up on their site ready for ordering. You really can't just release a CD with no notice. Merck and his cronies are incapable of planning a tour without a major fuck up (shifting dates cause you've found a better route? How stupid is that?) Do you really think they can pull off some covert ops shit, that would be one of the most difficult marketing schemes in history?

Chinese Democracy does not have a registered catalog number (the cd equivalent of an ISBN). This would suggest that the album has not reached the manufacturing stage.

I want this album to come out, big time, and I won't be saying 'I told you so' to anyone - it's a bitter fucking pill to swallow that we've all been lied to by our 'hero'. 2006 could have been remembered as a great year for GNR - the year they finally came back. As it is, 2 good tours will pale in comparison to the disappointment of another year without CD, and Axl breaking his promise to fans.

Merck and Axl know if the album is coming out or not this year - that is for sure. For them to keep fans in the dark, knowing how much disappointment they are going to cause, absolutely sucks. Time to step up and be a man?

Sadly, GNR fans will be treat like shit for as long as they allow themselves to be. I say call your local radio station, and share some of your anger there. At least it'll send a message to them. They've made it clear through the Del James 'article' that forum fans are worthless to them.

Take it easy.

[Estranged Reality]

I don't know why people think Axl owes them something. He doesn't. People pay money to buy an album or concert ticket, and they receive music and concerts (well, most of the time) in return.

While I understand where you're coming from, I'm not even necessarily talking about the album's release. If they have a realistic excuse for its delay, fine. But I'm talking about having enough respect for their fans to let them know - it may not be "required," for example, that they tell us why something they promised us on the website was never delivered, but by not telling us and just removing it altogether, it upsets more people. If they had just offered an explanation for why the "exclusive video" was never posted, I for one wouldn't have cared. It's the fact that they don't care enough to give us an explanation, but then they have the time to complain about whiners on the forums. A lot less people would be complaining if they just gave these people decent respect.

You said Axl doesn't owe anyone anything. That's true. But he's a musician. Other musicians aren't required to keep their fans up to date or provide some level of interaction - but they do so out of respect because they acknowledge their fanbase. Pearl Jam and Metallica could do the same thing to their fans, but they don't.

It's not a matter of arguing whether Axl has to do this, it's just a matter of simple human decency. As someone else (I think Gunzen) said - you don't have to hold a door open for an old woman, but you would do so because it's something that people with character and respect do for others.

If you are a musician whose entire career has been formed by fans who have purchased albums and gone to concerts, you can't turn your back on fans and just ignore they don't exist and pretend that you don't owe anything in return, because I think there is a level of mutual respect that must go both ways.

Axl may not "owe" us something, but if we rely upon his word as a human, then he does. He said - numerous times this year - that the album would be out before the end of 2006. Merck verified these claims. If it doesn't come out, fine. But I'd appreciate some type of notice in advance, as a fan. Otherwise, it's very clear that they purposefully didn't tell us.

It's easy for them to refute claims that Tommy threw his bass, or that EODM did this and that, or that it wasn't their fault for the cancellation in Portland, but Merck can't take time to let us know the status of the album so close to the end of the year?

But I don't really understand why people are making such a huge deal about this. For those of us who have been around the GNR internet forums for many years, we've seen dozens and dozens of album release dates come and go. If this turns out to be another one - no big deal. *shrugs* The sun will still come up in the morning, the birds will still be flying, and life will go on everybody.

If I'm not mistaken, though, Axl has never officially given a release date directly to the people before - he's never come out and said "this is the year." It's always been "hopefully," or "soon." And Beta and Merck have never said "this is the year," but they both have also. (Beta posted a message on HTGTH telling people to stop picking on Axl for the cancellation in Oregon.)

There have never been direct promises of an album in a specific year by the band's frontman, there has never been a major tour like this (except in '02 which was cancelled before it even reached the midpoint), etc. etc. etc.

So what I'm saying is - it may not be that Axl "owes" us an album or is required to tell us anything about it, but if he wants to pretend he doesn't have fans, then he's being very ignorant. Even aside from the Internet fanbase, there are a lot of people who can't wait to hear this. Yes, he's said to go on living our lives, and I think that's rather naive. I don't think everyone's sitting around drooling doing absolutely nothing else but thinking about this album. I know I'm not. But I was very excited to hear it this year because he said it was coming out - and it would just be a nice motion of respect towards his fanbase for him to take just as much effort to say it's not coming out (if that's the case).

I don't care if the album is delayed. I just would like him to respect his fans enough to offer an advance notice. People in the "real world" think Axl/GN'R is a joke these days in part because of how many times CD has been delayed, and if he spoke out a bit more about it a lot of these rumors would be shot down before they could gain hype and disappoint people.

[D-GenerationX]

Online stores like Amazon make up a huge percentage of sales these days. They would require 7 days notice - 3 for ordering, 4 for processing - to get things up on their site ready for ordering. You really can't just release a CD with no notice. Merck and his cronies are incapable of planning a tour without a major fuck up (shifting dates cause you've found a better route? How stupid is that?) Do you really think they can pull off some covert ops shit, that would be one of the most difficult marketing schemes in history?

Chinese Democracy does not have a registered catalog number (the cd equivalent of an ISBN). This would suggest that the album has not reached the manufacturing stage.

You know, when you finally get through all the conspiracy theories, its cold hard facts like we see here that probably really tell the story.

[Mutant Rose]

You totally NAILED it great post

[Zint]

Sure lots of release dates come and go,but NOT with a world tour connected to it.

2006 was looking damn fine for this band..all the hype surrounding the amazing club shows,the Eddie Trunk interview with the announcement of a late Fall release (from Axl's mouth...live on the air).

Everything seemed to be making sense...the tour made sense.It was all geared to the pending Fall release of CD.There was a purpose for this band to be on the road.Longtime fans,hardcore fans,new fans...and fans who have been around the forums long enough seemed willing to believe it all this time around.

why?..

Axl came out of the woodwork,the band was rehearsing for something...which turned out to be a rather ambitious tour.Then Axl drops a release timeframe...he didn't say "don't wait for it...live your lives",he said it's coming out in late Fall,you will hear new music this year.Big difference in those two statements.

People started proudly waving their fandom in the faces of their friends,schoolmates,brothers and sisters and anyone else who would (or wouldn't) listen to them...and they did so with great confidence,because the man himself gave them reason to.

The surfacing of Axl Rose always incites great excitement and anticipation...and rightfully so,he's one of the greatest entertainers this planet has ever been graced with.And so...there he was,we could see him,we could hear him...and as he stated..2002 didn't work because it wasn't on his terms but this time he was "ready".

Axl's ready??...we're ready!!...simple as that.

And now with the end of the year looming,everything seems to be amounting to...what?

no one knows...

Yeah it was cool to see Axl live on stage again,plus the band seems in fine form....aaaand??

When you cut through the "that was the greatest night of my life" forum reviews of 06 concerts,there's not much else.Ultimately there are venues chockful of people who were/are willing to give this new GnR a chance AGAIN.

GnR set the stage for it....GnR created the hype...and once more the people came out to check them out.

And to thank them for their continued faith and support...they are kept waiting till midnight...can't get home??...tough shit,spend the night on the streets...this is Guns n Fucking Roses bitches!

ok...fine...so what are they offering the casual fan in return?

A setlist weighing heavily on Appetite,an era that doesn't exist anymore...the familiarity factor gets thunderous applause (and rightfully so...great fucking songs).

But what does the NEW Guns have to offer the majority of people in attendance?...a handful of songs they've never heard before...it's written all over the faces...scan a crowd at a GnR concert and be honest with yourself about what you see.

The fact that this band resurfaced and went on tour without new product to offer the fans,the casual listener...and most importantly the curious is completely baffling to me.I've wanted so bad for this to be a triumphant return and unfortunately so far I've seen a bungled opportunity.

I'm not so sure at this point it's moreso about the frustration of waiting,or the lack of information at this point...or the fact that EVERYONE who waved the GnR fandom flag are now facing the "HA...he fucked you AGAIN!" backlash...or maybe it's a disappointing combination of all those elements.

I don't really give a shit about the wait...but I really hate seeing the massive potential 2006 had for this band slowly losing steam.And what is most perplexing to me about that scenario is how easy it would be to keep the forward momentum going strong...throw the people a bone....offer some information...some sort of insight.

Releasing Chi Dem THEN going on tour would have propelled this band to the top of the rockworld in the blink of an eye...yet what I see unfolding (so far),makes absolutely no sense to me at all.