Honesty and respect

[Axl_morris]

I want to make a point to Madison. You like this bakery right. YOuve been going there for years and theyve got really nice food. Sure they dont owe you any kind of courteousy or manners because thats not what your buying - but its good business and good PR that they do treat you nice and they do keep their promises - like when you expect your favourite beef pie to be there every morning - they dont have to have it ready for you but they do. Thats respect two ways. You are loyal to them - so they return the favour. Its the same in this situation. Axl sells and product that we buy - and we keep buying it because we like it but also because we are loyal. The feeling SHOULD be mutual. Big lesson needs to be learnt here.

Interesting analogy BV, but let me take it one step further. If you liked that bakery because nobody else created food like that bakery, would you then insult the baker who made the food or burn down the bakery altogether just because your food wasn't on time? *I love analogies* ...

Yes, BUT! if the manager of the baker says your steak pie will be ordered for tuesday... And it hasn't. He will not speak to you or tell you why you're pie was never made for you. Then surely he has lost a costomer?

However the manager doesn't explain why, of fear of loosing other costomers because there is not steak left and the costomers who would have bought the same pie anyway but also shop for other things like cakes (concert tickets), drinks (older GNR CD's) and sausage rolls (GNR Merch). So by keeping quiet about no steak, still brings the costomers in for other products. Because if he DID tell the costomers there is no steak, then they would shop at another bakers who sells steak and the other products. However in this case, the costomers HAVE the other products, but aren't going to travel across town to the other bakers just for a steak pie.

[rockstar81]

Exept for Del James (the tool) and Beta (the bitch - read her posts over HTGH, she is a complete bitch), the rest are fine. Merck is pretty cool. B)

[Axl_morris]

Exept for Del James (the tool) and Beta (the bitch - read her posts over HTGH, she is a complete bitch), the rest are fine. Merck is pretty cool. B)

What did her posts say?

[rockstar81]

What does Beta say when she posts over HTGH? insults. She has 20 posts I think, and they are 20 posts full of insults towards the fans. She is a COMPLETE bitch. If she were not Beta, she would have been banned for a long, long time. When you read her posts, you want to slam her in the face.

She is extremely disrespectfull.

Edited December 8, 2006 by rockstar81

[Axl_morris]

What does Beta say when she posts over HTGH? insults. She has 20 posts I think, and they are 20 posts full of insults towards the fans. She is a COMPLETE bitch. If she were not Beta, she would have been banned for a long, long time. When you read her posts, you want to slam her in the face.

If what your saying is true and if I were a mod, I would have banned her. It's not a beta forum, it's a GNR forum. Why is it that Del James, Merck and now Beta can treat the fans like shit? Who the fuck are they? People to don't pay to see them or care about them. Just because they're in the GNR camp doesn't make them anything special.

I just thank that our dear friend Sabastian Bach isn't like the rest, who's in the know!

[rockstar81]

no, Merck is fine, really. He is respectfull.

For Beta, blame Jarmo the nerd, he is an asslicker, he doesn't say anything because it's Beta. He is afraid of her.

[smokingarthur]

I don't know why people think Axl owes them something. He doesn't. People pay money to buy an album or concert ticket, and they receive music and concerts (well, most of the time) in return.

While I understand where you're coming from, I'm not even necessarily talking about the album's release. If they have a realistic excuse for its delay, fine. But I'm talking about having enough respect for their fans to let them know - it may not be "required," for example, that they tell us why something they promised us on the website was never delivered, but by not telling us and just removing it altogether, it upsets more people. If they had just offered an explanation for why the "exclusive video" was never posted, I for one wouldn't have cared. It's the fact that they don't care enough to give us an explanation, but then they have the time to complain about whiners on the forums. A lot less people would be complaining if they just gave these people decent respect.

You said Axl doesn't owe anyone anything. That's true. But he's a musician. Other musicians aren't required to keep their fans up to date or provide some level of interaction - but they do so out of respect because they acknowledge their fanbase. Pearl Jam and Metallica could do the same thing to their fans, but they don't.

It's not a matter of arguing whether Axl has to do this, it's just a matter of simple human decency. As someone else (I think Gunzen) said - you don't have to hold a door open for an old woman, but you would do so because it's something that people with character and respect do for others.

If you are a musician whose entire career has been formed by fans who have purchased albums and gone to concerts, you can't turn your back on fans and just ignore they don't exist and pretend that you don't owe anything in return, because I think there is a level of mutual respect that must go both ways.

Axl may not "owe" us something, but if we rely upon his word as a human, then he does. He said - numerous times this year - that the album would be out before the end of 2006. Merck verified these claims. If it doesn't come out, fine. But I'd appreciate some type of notice in advance, as a fan. Otherwise, it's very clear that they purposefully didn't tell us.

It's easy for them to refute claims that Tommy threw his bass, or that EODM did this and that, or that it wasn't their fault for the cancellation in Portland, but Merck can't take time to let us know the status of the album so close to the end of the year?

But I don't really understand why people are making such a huge deal about this. For those of us who have been around the GNR internet forums for many years, we've seen dozens and dozens of album release dates come and go. If this turns out to be another one - no big deal. *shrugs* The sun will still come up in the morning, the birds will still be flying, and life will go on everybody.

If I'm not mistaken, though, Axl has never officially given a release date directly to the people before - he's never come out and said "this is the year." It's always been "hopefully," or "soon." And Beta and Merck have never said "this is the year," but they both have also. (Beta posted a message on HTGTH telling people to stop picking on Axl for the cancellation in Oregon.)

There have never been direct promises of an album in a specific year by the band's frontman, there has never been a major tour like this (except in '02 which was cancelled before it even reached the midpoint), etc. etc. etc.

So what I'm saying is - it may not be that Axl "owes" us an album or is required to tell us anything about it, but if he wants to pretend he doesn't have fans, then he's being very ignorant. Even aside from the Internet fanbase, there are a lot of people who can't wait to hear this. Yes, he's said to go on living our lives, and I think that's rather naive. I don't think everyone's sitting around drooling doing absolutely nothing else but thinking about this album. I know I'm not. But I was very excited to hear it this year because he said it was coming out - and it would just be a nice motion of respect towards his fanbase for him to take just as much effort to say it's not coming out (if that's the case).

I don't care if the album is delayed. I just would like him to respect his fans enough to offer an advance notice. People in the "real world" think Axl/GN'R is a joke these days in part because of how many times CD has been delayed, and if he spoke out a bit more about it a lot of these rumors would be shot down before they could gain hype and disappoint people.

This post mimics how myself and many other's feel. It is not about what is owed. It is about fucking human decency. Is it so hard to be open with fans? There would be far more respect for the GNR namesake if they actually treated us like human beings and not second rate fans. There is no other band that could get away with this. I put up with it like many others, but honestly speaking, it is so demented that GNR would treat the loyal fan base like pions. At this point, I want the album mostly as closure and "completion of prophecy". At nearly 45 years old, Axl should have learned a lot more important lessons from life. He obviously did not. Axl should be ashamed of himself. He is a poor role model and and a perfect example of a diluted rock star. Axl wake up man!!!

[Elnombre]

I want to make a point to Madison. You like this bakery right. YOuve been going there for years and theyve got really nice food. Sure they dont owe you any kind of courteousy or manners because thats not what your buying - but its good business and good PR that they do treat you nice and they do keep their promises - like when you expect your favourite beef pie to be there every morning - they dont have to have it ready for you but they do. Thats respect two ways. You are loyal to them - so they return the favour. Its the same in this situation. Axl sells and product that we buy - and we keep buying it because we like it but also because we are loyal. The feeling SHOULD be mutual. Big lesson needs to be learnt here.

Interesting analogy BV, but let me take it one step further. If you liked that bakery because nobody else created food like that bakery, would you then insult the baker who made the food or burn down the bakery altogether just because your food wasn't on time? *I love analogies* ...

Yes, BUT! if the manager of the baker says your steak pie will be ordered for tuesday... And it hasn't. He will not speak to you or tell you why you're pie was never made for you. Then surely he has lost a costomer?

However the manager doesn't explain why, of fear of loosing other costomers because there is not steak left and the costomers who would have bought the same pie anyway but also shop for other things like cakes (concert tickets), drinks (older GNR CD's) and sausage rolls (GNR Merch). So by keeping quiet about no steak, still brings the costomers in for other products. Because if he DID tell the costomers there is no steak, then they would shop at another bakers who sells steak and the other products. However in this case, the costomers HAVE the other products, but aren't going to travel across town to the other bakers just for a steak pie.

Lets face it, Axl's not a baker, Chinese Democracy's not a frigging steak pie. Music isn't a commodity, but whether it is or not, that has little to do with what things amount to here - a broken promise, and a lack of respect.

And speaking of lack of respect, yes, people like Beta who think that being on Axl's payroll makes them a default member of GNR need to wind their necks in. No one is a Beta fan, no one is a Merck fan. I wouldn't piss on the pair of them if they were on fire, to be honest.

[Gunzen]

dude, I was with you till you said sad state of affairs, jesus dude, two sellouts in a row, playing 2 1/2 hours shows, high energy, gotta disagree, maybe a bit frustrating, but not sad man.

For christ sake, is there anything I can say right for you? I said "in many ways", not everything but several things are sad. Many here would agree with me that in regards to Chinese Democracy it's pretty sad. If you think I'm in the minority here I guarantee you the rest of the world outside of here finds Axl and CD one sad fucking story.

actually you said being a guns n roses fan was a sad state of affairs, I agree the cd thing does suck, and for the record ( no pun intended) , I can agree with you on some things, cause I did on the post, but I am not gonna let you speak for us and say we are in a sad state of affairs, cause we arent. You can say YOU are, but dont speak for us, we can do that ourselves. KTHANX!

The single wrost thing if the album diesn´t come out this year is that they know about at this very moment and still haven´t put out a press release saying so. They don´t care if the fans are hoping for a release only to have that bit of hope crushed come the end of the year. If they really want us to buy an excuse they should´ve put out a press release the SECOND they knew something had happened to delay the release of the record. Bur knowing Merck there will be a lame ass excuse at the end of the year or even in 2007 (when we all already know the album didnt come out) and that is just not gonna fly this time. They really need to get their heads out of their asses and understand that we aren´t sheep that will take any kind of treatment and still follow the herd.

thats exactly why i think itl'll be released this year. seriously, how can they be that stupid! they read the boards, they know how people feel; they'd lose a lot of fans and they can't afford that. 06

...maybe because there are like 1.0005% of the fans are actually negative. The rest of us just go to shows, listen to music, and know things get fucked up. You negative people think you are the majority??? Most people I know dont even know they are touring. And some people I told said they remeber seeing them. Those people WILL buy the product if it is good. You few hundred people who swear to swear them off if no album comes out are actually quite insignificant. Big Picture Baby, Big Picture.

Cry all you want, nonbody is really listening. And btw the way, you guys rock1 will buy it/steal it regardless.

[Guest Matt13]

dude, I was with you till you said sad state of affairs, jesus dude, two sellouts in a row, playing 2 1/2 hours shows, high energy, gotta disagree, maybe a bit frustrating, but not sad man.

For christ sake, is there anything I can say right for you? I said "in many ways", not everything but several things are sad. Many here would agree with me that in regards to Chinese Democracy it's pretty sad. If you think I'm in the minority here I guarantee you the rest of the world outside of here finds Axl and CD one sad fucking story.

actually you said being a guns n roses fan was a sad state of affairs, I agree the cd thing does suck, and for the record ( no pun intended) , I can agree with you on some things, cause I did on the post, but I am not gonna let you speak for us and say we are in a sad state of affairs, cause we arent. You can say YOU are, but dont speak for us, we can do that ourselves. KTHANX!

The single wrost thing if the album diesn´t come out this year is that they know about at this very moment and still haven´t put out a press release saying so. They don´t care if the fans are hoping for a release only to have that bit of hope crushed come the end of the year. If they really want us to buy an excuse they should´ve put out a press release the SECOND they knew something had happened to delay the release of the record. Bur knowing Merck there will be a lame ass excuse at the end of the year or even in 2007 (when we all already know the album didnt come out) and that is just not gonna fly this time. They really need to get their heads out of their asses and understand that we aren´t sheep that will take any kind of treatment and still follow the herd.

thats exactly why i think itl'll be released this year. seriously, how can they be that stupid! they read the boards, they know how people feel; they'd lose a lot of fans and they can't afford that. 06

...maybe because there are like 1.0005% of the fans are actually negative. The rest of us just go to shows, listen to music, and know things get fucked up. You negative people think you are the majority??? Most people I know dont even know they are touring. And some people I told said they remeber seeing them. Those people WILL buy the product if it is good. You few hundred people who swear to swear them off if no album comes out are actually quite insignificant. Big Picture Baby, Big Picture.

Cry all you want, nonbody is really listening. And btw the way, you guys rock1 will buy it/steal it regardless.

Absolutely spot on there Gunzen. I would put money on it that of all of GNR's fans, less than 5% of them ever have even visited a GNR fan forum.

We, unfortunately, have pathetic lives roaming around these places. The negative folks with all of their conspiricy theories and general horse shit are even worse off than the positive fans who come around places like this.

It's a sad reality.

I'm going to go shoot myself now.

[Lukinx]

So you´re saying people should see it positively? It´s not like people are bitching and being negative for no reason. Who cares if no one is listening? They´re just venting and have the right to do so. Btw your post is a post complaining on the people so what the difference? You´re bitching too. Big picture remember?

A forum is for venting opinions, not fucking beating down on other people.

[blackvelvet]

Yeah Beta is a real nasty piece of work. She really does hate us. Check it out: (you have to log on first)

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/i...34;sa=showPosts

[ChineseDemocracy2006]

She seems like a bitch

[Gunzen]

So you´re saying people should see it positively? It´s not like people are bitching and being negative for no reason. Who cares if no one is listening? They´re just venting and have the right to do so. Btw your post is a post complaining on the people so what the difference? You´re bitching too. Big picture remember?

A forum is for venting opinions, not fucking beating down on other people.

actually I was just pointing out that people who complain dont represent all fans, I am not complaining, the crying and bitching is quite entertaining. I will disagree if I feel it misrepresents what I feel as a fan, especially at statements like "guns and roses fans are in a sad state of affairs" etc. Cause I dont feel it is true. Free country. Cry on!

[Estranged Reality]

She seems like a bitch

I enjoyed this part of her response:

And there you are talking out of your ass. That shows that you don't know nothing about nothing and of course don't know Axl.

Bragger!

She was active on HTGTH when I was online the one day right after the Maine cancellation and she was being rather unpleasant towards the users there, I have to agree.

[Dead Flower]

I'm going to go shoot myself now.

[Revolver]

people at school make fun at me for thinking Chinese Democracy will be releashed this year, and if it won't... I can NOT accept that Axl just says yo guys, we kinda forgot to releash the album, too bad, Im really sorry... let's see if it will be out at some point '07.

I would go crazy! he HAS to be honest and respectful just like you said, I really agree with your post, it's great

[bin laden killed gnr]

If this album doesn't come out, everyone will be spewing....."Well, they went on tour for the fans so blah blah blah"

The biggest way for the band to make money is not by releasing record but by touring. The money is rolling in on this tour while everyone is mostly waiting for the record to come out. Meanwhile, the bands pockets are getting greener and greener.

[Dead Flower]

Is that really Beta?

Maybe Gunzen is one of her brood. Fernando?

[blackvelvet]

Yup its her. Its been confirmed by Jarmo etc.

I think Beta is secretly in love with Axl.

[Gunzen]

Is that really Beta?

Maybe Gunzen is one of her brood. Fernando?

Hiya Dead. I dont have a HTGTH account and frankly am to damn lazy to create one to read it. So I doubt I am one of her(?) brood. But thanks for the press. If this business deal I am working on comes through, I am gonna fly your ass (coach) to a show. You really need to see one. rock1

[aussie_axl]

dude, I was with you till you said sad state of affairs, jesus dude, two sellouts in a row, playing 2 1/2 hours shows, high energy, gotta disagree, maybe a bit frustrating, but not sad man.

For christ sake, is there anything I can say right for you? I said "in many ways", not everything but several things are sad. Many here would agree with me that in regards to Chinese Democracy it's pretty sad. If you think I'm in the minority here I guarantee you the rest of the world outside of here finds Axl and CD one sad fucking story.

actually you said being a guns n roses fan was a sad state of affairs, I agree the cd thing does suck, and for the record ( no pun intended) , I can agree with you on some things, cause I did on the post, but I am not gonna let you speak for us and say we are in a sad state of affairs, cause we arent. You can say YOU are, but dont speak for us, we can do that ourselves. KTHANX!

The single wrost thing if the album diesn´t come out this year is that they know about at this very moment and still haven´t put out a press release saying so. They don´t care if the fans are hoping for a release only to have that bit of hope crushed come the end of the year. If they really want us to buy an excuse they should´ve put out a press release the SECOND they knew something had happened to delay the release of the record. Bur knowing Merck there will be a lame ass excuse at the end of the year or even in 2007 (when we all already know the album didnt come out) and that is just not gonna fly this time. They really need to get their heads out of their asses and understand that we aren´t sheep that will take any kind of treatment and still follow the herd.

thats exactly why i think itl'll be released this year. seriously, how can they be that stupid! they read the boards, they know how people feel; they'd lose a lot of fans and they can't afford that. 06

...maybe because there are like 1.0005% of the fans are actually negative. The rest of us just go to shows, listen to music, and know things get fucked up. You negative people think you are the majority??? Most people I know dont even know they are touring. And some people I told said they remeber seeing them. Those people WILL buy the product if it is good. You few hundred people who swear to swear them off if no album comes out are actually quite insignificant. Big Picture Baby, Big Picture.

Cry all you want, nonbody is really listening. And btw the way, you guys rock1 will buy it/steal it regardless.

hey assclown, the gnr fan base is about 1/4 of what it once was, explain that! your the majority because the majority don't give a shit about axl or gnr anymore, fact.

[Elnombre]

Is that really Beta?

Maybe Gunzen is one of her brood. Fernando?

Hiya Dead. I dont have a HTGTH account and frankly am to damn lazy to create one to read it. So I doubt I am one of her(?) brood. But thanks for the press. If this business deal I am working on comes through, I am gonna fly your ass (coach) to a show. You really need to see one. rock1

Oh you and your business. You drop that into every post as if you actually expect people to care.

[Gunzen]

dude, I was with you till you said sad state of affairs, jesus dude, two sellouts in a row, playing 2 1/2 hours shows, high energy, gotta disagree, maybe a bit frustrating, but not sad man.

For christ sake, is there anything I can say right for you? I said "in many ways", not everything but several things are sad. Many here would agree with me that in regards to Chinese Democracy it's pretty sad. If you think I'm in the minority here I guarantee you the rest of the world outside of here finds Axl and CD one sad fucking story.

actually you said being a guns n roses fan was a sad state of affairs, I agree the cd thing does suck, and for the record ( no pun intended) , I can agree with you on some things, cause I did on the post, but I am not gonna let you speak for us and say we are in a sad state of affairs, cause we arent. You can say YOU are, but dont speak for us, we can do that ourselves. KTHANX!

The single wrost thing if the album diesn´t come out this year is that they know about at this very moment and still haven´t put out a press release saying so. They don´t care if the fans are hoping for a release only to have that bit of hope crushed come the end of the year. If they really want us to buy an excuse they should´ve put out a press release the SECOND they knew something had happened to delay the release of the record. Bur knowing Merck there will be a lame ass excuse at the end of the year or even in 2007 (when we all already know the album didnt come out) and that is just not gonna fly this time. They really need to get their heads out of their asses and understand that we aren´t sheep that will take any kind of treatment and still follow the herd.

thats exactly why i think itl'll be released this year. seriously, how can they be that stupid! they read the boards, they know how people feel; they'd lose a lot of fans and they can't afford that. 06

...maybe because there are like 1.0005% of the fans are actually negative. The rest of us just go to shows, listen to music, and know things get fucked up. You negative people think you are the majority??? Most people I know dont even know they are touring. And some people I told said they remeber seeing them. Those people WILL buy the product if it is good. You few hundred people who swear to swear them off if no album comes out are actually quite insignificant. Big Picture Baby, Big Picture.

Cry all you want, nonbody is really listening. And btw the way, you guys rock1 will buy it/steal it regardless.

hey assclown, the gnr fan base is about 1/4 of what it once was, explain that! your the majority because the majority don't give a shit about axl or gnr anymore, fact.

assclown? How old are you 16? Please, next.

[aussie_axl]

dude, I was with you till you said sad state of affairs, jesus dude, two sellouts in a row, playing 2 1/2 hours shows, high energy, gotta disagree, maybe a bit frustrating, but not sad man.

For christ sake, is there anything I can say right for you? I said "in many ways", not everything but several things are sad. Many here would agree with me that in regards to Chinese Democracy it's pretty sad. If you think I'm in the minority here I guarantee you the rest of the world outside of here finds Axl and CD one sad fucking story.

actually you said being a guns n roses fan was a sad state of affairs, I agree the cd thing does suck, and for the record ( no pun intended) , I can agree with you on some things, cause I did on the post, but I am not gonna let you speak for us and say we are in a sad state of affairs, cause we arent. You can say YOU are, but dont speak for us, we can do that ourselves. KTHANX!

The single wrost thing if the album diesn´t come out this year is that they know about at this very moment and still haven´t put out a press release saying so. They don´t care if the fans are hoping for a release only to have that bit of hope crushed come the end of the year. If they really want us to buy an excuse they should´ve put out a press release the SECOND they knew something had happened to delay the release of the record. Bur knowing Merck there will be a lame ass excuse at the end of the year or even in 2007 (when we all already know the album didnt come out) and that is just not gonna fly this time. They really need to get their heads out of their asses and understand that we aren´t sheep that will take any kind of treatment and still follow the herd.

thats exactly why i think itl'll be released this year. seriously, how can they be that stupid! they read the boards, they know how people feel; they'd lose a lot of fans and they can't afford that. 06

...maybe because there are like 1.0005% of the fans are actually negative. The rest of us just go to shows, listen to music, and know things get fucked up. You negative people think you are the majority??? Most people I know dont even know they are touring. And some people I told said they remeber seeing them. Those people WILL buy the product if it is good. You few hundred people who swear to swear them off if no album comes out are actually quite insignificant. Big Picture Baby, Big Picture.

Cry all you want, nonbody is really listening. And btw the way, you guys rock1 will buy it/steal it regardless.

hey assclown, the gnr fan base is about 1/4 of what it once was, explain that! your the majority because the majority don't give a shit about axl or gnr anymore, fact.

assclown? How old are you 16? Please, next.

truth hurts doesn't it gunzen, at least i attacked your point, something you couldn't do.