loved2deth

I seriously doubt Slash would have been famous outside of maybe a somewhat famous 80's hair metal band without Axl there to organize it all.

Wow. Some of you people are crazy.

We've seen what Guns is like with Axl in full control. An anti-publicity machine. Do you really think anyone would have ever heard of Guns N' Roses if Axl had been the dicatator that he is now back in the '80s?

Was Guns ever pro publicity then really? No, you had a massive interest based on an Earth shattering record. Axl has never been to the best of my knowledge the type to find people to interview him.

I made a typo there, and I apologize. I am saying Axl seems to be the organizer, the composer if you will and the other guys have always seemed to fill in the blanks. UYI would have been the same with or without Adler pretty much in overall arrangement.

Listen to the stuff Slash is doing, notice how it is almost great and epic yet it is missing something special, and not just Axl's voice.

I am just saying he did way more than snake dance and sing for the musical parts.

Going by the descriptions of the song writing process that I have read most of the music was written by Slash and Izzy, Axl would come along later and add lyrics. So it was a collaberative effort for the most part.

I do agree with what you say about what slash is doing but the same can be said for Axl's material lacking Slash and the old band? The fact is together there was a synergy that the can not hope to reproduce as individuals.

I have always read the opposite, that Axl would compose stuff, then the others would add and so on, a true collaboration.

I agree though, neither of them without Izzy would have a hope of capturing the lightening in the bottle they had. Right now would be a good time though, since the media seems to be scrambling and a growing number of people hate the crap that is out there now in pop culture.

We are at that point like in 1991 where the door is wide open for another Nirvana type revolution, just like people were ready for the rap thing in 2000 or so. Outside of a few bright spots, things need to change yet no one is stepping up.

You can argue back and forth but going by Slashs quote and interviews I've read with Izzy and some stuff Axl said in an old MTV interview where he describes the writing of WTTJ, most of the AFD music was apparently written by Slash and Izzy with Axl and the rest of the guys adding and chaning things. Axl also took on a kind of producer role where he OK's the final mixes as well as adding some embellishments such as the synth heard on Paradise City.

By the time UYI rolled round the band had clearly already become more fragmented. Novemeber Rain is clearly Axl's song and Coma is clearly a Slash song. Although the illusions also contained a lot of older songs and covers. I think the reason that some of the newer songs were not as good as the AFD material is that the song writing dynamic is already damaged probably because Steven was gone (either physically or metaphorically) and Izzy was already edging toward the door.

But just listent to Shost on Slash's new album he and Izzy still have that chemistry. I just hope they can get Steve Duff and of course Axl back too!

Yeah, I think I misunderstood or came off confusingly or whatever. I am just saying that they all contributed-it wasn't like 'yayyy, Slash is on his own now so he can really shine'. It would not be the same band without Axl in sound and so on regardless of who was singing.

I really want to see them reunite for just 1 album or even one song just out of curiosity as to what they would do.

Agreed sorry if I picked up you up wrong.

No prob man. I have always lurked here and the other 2 I know about, but guys like you make this forum the best.

I yearn for the old band, but realistically, I feel like people are in a black hole entertainment wise vs years ago. My generation (I am 24) has really been robbed IMHO.

I could not imagine getting up and reading about GnR in the paper, but Axl and Slash are the 2 guys I can really relate to.

That said I don't know or understand why they can't work together.

Katie Price has no soul, and some people think Slash is a media whore?

Katie Price has no brain, or ears.

I seriously doubt Slash would have been famous outside of maybe a somewhat famous 80's hair metal band without Axl there to organize it all.

Wow. Some of you people are crazy.

We've seen what Guns is like with Axl in full control. An anti-publicity machine. Do you really think anyone would have ever heard of Guns N' Roses if Axl had been the dicatator that he is now back in the '80s?

Was Guns ever pro publicity then really? No, you had a massive interest based on an Earth shattering record. Axl has never been to the best of my knowledge the type to find people to interview him.

I made a typo there, and I apologize. I am saying Axl seems to be the organizer, the composer if you will and the other guys have always seemed to fill in the blanks. UYI would have been the same with or without Adler pretty much in overall arrangement.

Listen to the stuff Slash is doing, notice how it is almost great and epic yet it is missing something special, and not just Axl's voice.

I am just saying he did way more than snake dance and sing for the musical parts.

Going by the descriptions of the song writing process that I have read most of the music was written by Slash and Izzy, Axl would come along later and add lyrics. So it was a collaberative effort for the most part.

I do agree with what you say about what slash is doing but the same can be said for Axl's material lacking Slash and the old band? The fact is together there was a synergy that the can not hope to reproduce as individuals.

I have always read the opposite, that Axl would compose stuff, then the others would add and so on, a true collaboration.

I agree though, neither of them without Izzy would have a hope of capturing the lightening in the bottle they had. Right now would be a good time though, since the media seems to be scrambling and a growing number of people hate the crap that is out there now in pop culture.

We are at that point like in 1991 where the door is wide open for another Nirvana type revolution, just like people were ready for the rap thing in 2000 or so. Outside of a few bright spots, things need to change yet no one is stepping up.

You can argue back and forth but going by Slashs quote and interviews I've read with Izzy and some stuff Axl said in an old MTV interview where he describes the writing of WTTJ, most of the AFD music was apparently written by Slash and Izzy with Axl and the rest of the guys adding and chaning things. Axl also took on a kind of producer role where he OK's the final mixes as well as adding some embellishments such as the synth heard on Paradise City.

By the time UYI rolled round the band had clearly already become more fragmented. Novemeber Rain is clearly Axl's song and Coma is clearly a Slash song. Although the illusions also contained a lot of older songs and covers. I think the reason that some of the newer songs were not as good as the AFD material is that the song writing dynamic is already damaged probably because Steven was gone (either physically or metaphorically) and Izzy was already edging toward the door.

But just listent to Shost on Slash's new album he and Izzy still have that chemistry. I just hope they can get Steve Duff and of course Axl back too!

Yeah, I think I misunderstood or came off confusingly or whatever. I am just saying that they all contributed-it wasn't like 'yayyy, Slash is on his own now so he can really shine'. It would not be the same band without Axl in sound and so on regardless of who was singing.

I really want to see them reunite for just 1 album or even one song just out of curiosity as to what they would do.

I seriously doubt Slash would have been famous outside of maybe a somewhat famous 80's hair metal band without Axl there to organize it all.

Wow. Some of you people are crazy.

We've seen what Guns is like with Axl in full control. An anti-publicity machine. Do you really think anyone would have ever heard of Guns N' Roses if Axl had been the dicatator that he is now back in the '80s?

Was Guns ever pro publicity then really? No, you had a massive interest based on an Earth shattering record. Axl has never been to the best of my knowledge the type to find people to interview him.

I made a typo there, and I apologize. I am saying Axl seems to be the organizer, the composer if you will and the other guys have always seemed to fill in the blanks. UYI would have been the same with or without Adler pretty much in overall arrangement.

Listen to the stuff Slash is doing, notice how it is almost great and epic yet it is missing something special, and not just Axl's voice.

I am just saying he did way more than snake dance and sing for the musical parts.

Going by the descriptions of the song writing process that I have read most of the music was written by Slash and Izzy, Axl would come along later and add lyrics. So it was a collaberative effort for the most part.

I do agree with what you say about what slash is doing but the same can be said for Axl's material lacking Slash and the old band? The fact is together there was a synergy that the can not hope to reproduce as individuals.

I have always read the opposite, that Axl would compose stuff, then the others would add and so on, a true collaboration.

I agree though, neither of them without Izzy would have a hope of capturing the lightening in the bottle they had. Right now would be a good time though, since the media seems to be scrambling and a growing number of people hate the crap that is out there now in pop culture.

We are at that point like in 1991 where the door is wide open for another Nirvana type revolution, just like people were ready for the rap thing in 2000 or so. Outside of a few bright spots, things need to change yet no one is stepping up.

I don't buy the argument that Slash isn't a good songwriter. Do people really think Axl wouldn't sound good on Slither, Fall to Pieces, Starlight, Watch This, Serial Killer, Back and Forth Again, or Saint Is A Sinner? He certainly hasn't released a definitive album on his own, but there's a lot of interesting stuff in his solo catalogue. The notion that Axl needed to leave Slash behind is kind of silly when Chinese Democracy has duds like the title track, IRS and Scraped. Compared to the songs Axl and Slash have composed together; songs in which they literally reached Zeppelin-esque heights, there's really nothing on Chinese Democracy that compares. Even Axl said in the mid-to-late 90s they had incredible demos for the new record, so it's ridiculous to say they broke up over artistic differences. Their relationship ended because they didn't like each other anymore. Axl's freak-out-and-destroy-everything-attitude could not coexist with Slash's passive aggressiveness. And when you have as much money as they do, is it necessary to put up with someone's bullshit? No. They stopped talking, expecting the other to come crawling back, and the silence dragged on for years until there was no relationship left to repair..

-Kickingthehabit

Chinese Democracy was killed from leaks and horrible advertising combined with people expecting the best material ever written and so on from all the bullshit said and written about over the years.

Slash had a gigantic push for VR with literally everyone pushing them, and they did not come near what GnR did.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but really, listen to the songs Slash makes on his own. It is like Axl pushed and pushed him, and he sounds like instead of being innovative he is a generic rock guitarist now. I seriously doubt Slash would have been famous outside of maybe a somewhat famous 80's hair metal band without Axl there to organize it all.

I realize that sales wise CD was crushed by Contraband, but consider the massive difference between the two situations.

I don;t know where you are in the world but in the UK Chi Dem got pushed andpushed hard. They had television adverts, posters on public transport and full page adverts in newspapers. If anything the push for Chi Dem was bigger the Contraband?

The differnce was the VR boys got out there and helped push their record. I'm not even saying I think Contraband was better on balance I think Chi Dem shades it., but to say Chi Dem got no push just is not true at least not in the UK.

Southeast USA. One or two TV ads and a small ad in the sales paper, and of course the SNL advertising.

Contraband was everywhere though.

Chinese Democracy was killed from leaks and horrible advertising combined with people expecting the best material ever written and so on from all the bullshit said and written about over the years.

Do you honestly believe the millions of people who truly enjoyed Better and IRS simply decided to not buy the album? That somehow they absolutely loved what they heard but decided it wasn't worth going to the store to purchase? Of course not, because most people did not like the leaks. Granted, a few critics happily discussed them with positive feedback, but it didn't interest the greater public. Axl had also been touring the leaked material for nearly a decade before Chinese Democracy was actually released. Where were the record breaking 8 million people who listened to the album on Myspace courtesy the band? Why didn't they go to the store? If the public had been genuinely impressed by the material, it would have created more intrigue. There were no hits, nothing for the greater public to identify with, so the album failed commercially..

You cannot sensibly blame "expectations" for any record's failure. Axl chose to continue using the Guns N' Roses name. Naturally, there's going to be expectations. Were people at fault for having expectations with the Illusion records? Almost every critic at the time said they weren't as good as Appetite for Destruction. Yet they sold a combined 14 million copies. Why? Because it had hit singles and an audience that identified with the material. This is a strawman argument at best, because we're talking about an established band. Any band with an audience is going to have expectations from their audience. Bruce Springsteen isn't just going to release an album without his fans anticipating the very best. He either delivers, or he doesn't. That's how it works..

The poor advertising campaign falls soley on Axl's shoulders. Rolling Stone Magazine offered him the cover with an exclusive interview. He turned them down, in favor of doing a one-on-one with Del James. He also did an interview with Billboard weeks after the album had been released, but in both instances, he spent more time ranting about Slash's personal faults as a human being and how deplorable the media is than anything related to Chinese Democracy. And as others have pointed out, there were commercials on television, and advertising posters in subways and on buses in virtually every major market. BestBuy released 30 second snippets of the album through a YouTube campaign. And, as I previously mentioned, there was the record breaking stream of the album on Myspace where an average of 25 people per second were listening to one of the songs on the album, which is the largest amount of listeners for an album stream launch on Myspace to date..

Slash had a gigantic push for VR with literally everyone pushing them, and they did not come near what GnR did.

Slash is forthcoming to the media. He doesn't tell them to fuck off and die, so he's treated with respect. That is not to say he's immune from criticism. Contraband leaked weeks before the album's released date and received mixed reviews from most critics. Yet it sold in excess of millions because it had two hit singles. Slither was #1 for 8 weeks on the Mainstream Rock Chart. Fall to Pieces was #1 for 11 weeks..

Are you starting to realize there was no conspiracy?

-Kickingthehabit

Never said there was a conspiracy my friend. I am saying that people now don't buy albums, at least in the US if they can steal them. The rest copy them or get them from friends.

If the album sold 500,000 copies here (USA), that would be good for 2 million in 1990.

I have not met another person besides me in person that actually still wants a CD to go with their ITunes.

Axl's actions, to me, keep him and the band interesting. We also have the rumors that CD was made up of the weaker material, so we will just have to wait and see.

For the record, I too want Slash and Izzy back in the band, who doesn't really want that?

I am just saying Axl has somehow gotten this bad rap of being a nobody moron while Slash carried him.

I seriously doubt Slash would have been famous outside of maybe a somewhat famous 80's hair metal band without Axl there to organize it all.

Wow. Some of you people are crazy.

We've seen what Guns is like with Axl in full control. An anti-publicity machine. Do you really think anyone would have ever heard of Guns N' Roses if Axl had been the dicatator that he is now back in the '80s?

Was Guns ever pro publicity then really? No, you had a massive interest based on an Earth shattering record. Axl has never been to the best of my knowledge the type to find people to interview him.

I made a typo there, and I apologize. I am saying Axl seems to be the organizer, the composer if you will and the other guys have always seemed to fill in the blanks. UYI would have been the same with or without Adler pretty much in overall arrangement.

Listen to the stuff Slash is doing, notice how it is almost great and epic yet it is missing something special, and not just Axl's voice.

I am just saying he did way more than snake dance and sing for the musical parts.

I don't buy the argument that Slash isn't a good songwriter. Do people really think Axl wouldn't sound good on Slither, Fall to Pieces, Starlight, Watch This, Serial Killer, Back and Forth Again, or Saint Is A Sinner? He certainly hasn't released a definitive album on his own, but there's a lot of interesting stuff in his solo catalogue. The notion that Axl needed to leave Slash behind is kind of silly when Chinese Democracy has duds like the title track, IRS and Scraped. Compared to the songs Axl and Slash have composed together; songs in which they literally reached Zeppelin-esque heights, there's really nothing on Chinese Democracy that compares. Even Axl said in the mid-to-late 90s they had incredible demos for the new record, so it's ridiculous to say they broke up over artistic differences. Their relationship ended because they didn't like each other anymore. Axl's freak-out-and-destroy-everything-attitude could not coexist with Slash's passive aggressiveness. And when you have as much money as they do, is it necessary to put up with someone's bullshit? No. They stopped talking, expecting the other to come crawling back, and the silence dragged on for years until there was no relationship left to repair..

-Kickingthehabit

Chinese Democracy was killed from leaks and horrible advertising combined with people expecting the best material ever written and so on from all the bullshit said and written about over the years.

Slash had a gigantic push for VR with literally everyone pushing them, and they did not come near what GnR did.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but really, listen to the songs Slash makes on his own. It is like Axl pushed and pushed him, and he sounds like instead of being innovative he is a generic rock guitarist now. I seriously doubt Slash would have been famous outside of maybe a somewhat famous 80's hair metal band without Axl there to organize it all.

I realize that sales wise CD was crushed by Contraband, but consider the massive difference between the two situations.

I agree, it would have compared to what it was. At best they would be like Metallica is now or possibly something like Aerosmith or maybe even like Led Zeppelin-legendary.

At worst, assuming things kept going in that excessive direction, they could have ended up like Bon Jovi.

I had a thread talking about that. I believe an average album in 94-97 would have done far worse than what doing nothing did. If Slash's album is any indication (5 o clock somewhere) and really what that album would have sounded like, the decline would have been rapid.

Now the public is hungry for RnR again apparently if that piece of shit Slash released is any indication.

Axl is respected by me because he has to make things perfect, things worth listening to in line with his vision and standards. Just making albums to buy yet another mansion or finance some bullshit lifestyle doesn't seem to be on his priority list. I love that about him, and I think every true fan feels the same.

On the flip side, Axl could make any song sound unique and good to people that like his style, so who knows.

I understand why AXL comes across as insane now. I could not take every aspect of my life, my show, etc. being analyzed, no offense.

I love GNR and think they're the only remaining great rock band. Maybe the Stones and U2 still exist, and heck The Who just did the Superbowl, but I don't see them as quite at GNR's potential level IMO.

But as far as "best ever," Zep is beyond all else as far as I'm concerned.

U2 will be around as long as the four of them keep going.

Doing the "Tyson vs Ali" debate - putting GNR in their prime up against Led Zep or The Who in their prime, an Eddie Trunk question...

IMO, they are the best ever. Queen is #2. If it still gives me goosebumps years later, it is classic.

Not directly, maybe through his laywers or Merck eventually. If he didn't respond to that Hanson Bro. who called him out, I wouldn't hold your breath...

WTF? Explain what happened with the Hansen queers, I must a' missed it.