kbirdie76

What artist has ever gone back to being hugely popular after two decades of shitting all over their career and making almost everyone hate them? No hit or reunion would ever do that.

Mickey Rourke

Robert Downey Jr.

Charlie Sheen

The band is on fire. Probably Axl at his best since '93...

Never ceases to amaze me how people write out lyrics that are grammatically wrong and just make no sense at all.

Here are the lyrics about 99% accurate give or take a word:

i know this shade of grey
its a crown of thorns
never seems to break the skin
there's no blood or scars
just your broken faith

you used to be so sweet

you walked with a smile
ashtray's full and the coffee's cold
recuse yourself
make it look so..

you've got noting good to say
keep your mouth shut
nothing good to do
do it to yourself
cause nothing's ever good enough for you

i'm, sick of everything you say
as you're going down
sorry for everything

sick of everything that you do
as you're going down
looking like a fool

and you never mean to hurt no one
they just happen to be there next to you
you're going down
(as you're going down)

i know this dark place
i've heard these words
i've heard them coming from familiar tongues
i've heard them yelled
i've even head them sung

get into your car and drive
just as fast as you can
you had your 15 minutes
you tried to take an hour
now no one hears you call

Cool article.

On Ron's comment about people living hand to mouth, not wanting the shows to start 3 hours late...I've got to say, seems like he's saying in a world where people aren't so stressed and stretched, he's ok with a little chaos at a rock show...I would say, why treat people differently because of an unfortunate situation, let people escape to that world where that shit doesn't matter, it's a rock n fn roll show :-) reality is that shit might matter, but how about letting the 'show' just happen like a rock n roll show should.

If people stop going because of it, they stop going....and then rock n roll will truly be dead.

What a load of utter garbage. How 'rock n roll' would it be to miss work the next day and get fired because Axl can't get up on stage on time.

Working in an office isn't very rock n roll. Neither is getting the bus home or paying a babysitter. It's called normal life, and the people who lead it (us) have spent our very un-rock n roll salaries on the albums that put Axl in that big house on the hill.

I don't recall anyone turning down my cash because it wasn't cool enough. Get fucked.

Simple then don't do it, that's my point. You weren't forced, you choose. The second rock n roll starts to bend for a douche like you, it's dead, like you obviously are inside.

Cool article.

On Ron's comment about people living hand to mouth, not wanting the shows to start 3 hours late...I've got to say, seems like he's saying in a world where people aren't so stressed and stretched, he's ok with a little chaos at a rock show...I would say, why treat people differently because of an unfortunate situation, let people escape to that world where that shit doesn't matter, it's a rock n fn roll show :-) reality is that shit might matter, but how about letting the 'show' just happen like a rock n roll show should.

If people stop going because of it, they stop going....and then rock n roll will truly be dead.

Selling those personal things is not right.

The wedding ring ok, but love letters, breakup notes, legal documents??

It's a person's life, if you don't want it destroy it, don't give it away. It's like giving away something you don't have the right to give away. And exchange money for it, whatever the reason for the money? Not cool, on top of not being right.

Dizzy is very under-rated. He's one of the best piano players today and has been for about the last 20 years.

When he starts playing Liszt's repertoire for his solo spots instead of classic rock songs, I'll accept that statement.

I love Dizzy. He's an integral part of the band. But he's definitely nothing to write home about skill-wise.

One could make the same (stupid) argument about some arcane thing like being able to play Liszt's or <insert famed guitar robot> to make a comparison to someone like, say, Keith Richards. There's a difference between technical ability and playing, and dizzy can play.

Dizzy is very under-rated. He's one of the best piano players today and has been for about the last 20 years.

For several years now, many posters have postulated that the end of GnR's touring was imminent due to attendance numbers. Yet, despite these observations, GnR's touring has continued on, unabated, all over the world.

With one original member left, no new music on the horizon, and scant promotional activities, why do people keep going to GnR concerts? Is it Axl, is it the name, what is it?

Their live show is awesome, usually has awesome crowds and is always a great time.

Nothing better than general admission standing tickets at a guns snow.

The problem with Chinese Democracy is that I feel like I could tell Axl how to improve every song on the album. Does anybody else feel the same way?

So to paraphrase - your delusion gathered through the years of pining for guns n roses music, has reached the point where you think you are songwriter extraordinaire (backseat driver, armchair quarterback, <insert other such non-able advisor>).

Good for you.

To paraphrase Randy's point - "Many people think cd is so desperately overcooked - you'd hardly need to think you're a songwriter extraordinaire to feel like you could suggest minor improvements".

...and many people in this thread have suggested minor improvements, largely proving randy correct.

Quit the straw man stuff. He's not claiming to be any sort of songwriter, so don't call him out on it and then attack a position no-one's taking.

Wouldn't you tweak any of the songs on CD? The 'texturing' licks in the verses of cd (the song) have come up more than once. People think they're too much on top of everything else, esp thru headphones. I think that's quite interesting.

I disagree with pretty much what everyone said here

Good. No-one should want it any other way!

You should team up with Randy and help homer build the every man car...

The problem with Chinese Democracy is that I feel like I could tell Axl how to improve every song on the album. Does anybody else feel the same way?

So to paraphrase - your delusion gathered through the years of pining for guns n roses music, has reached the point where you think you are songwriter extraordinaire (backseat driver, armchair quarterback, <insert other such non-able advisor>).

Good for you.

For someone who didn't graduate high school and came up with songs that put him in a decent zip code, that's pretty genius.

Indeed.

I don't know if musical genius is the right word for any of them. I don't know the right wording but I see what you're getting at.

Compared to those you've mentioned I would say:

- Not as prolific in terms of the volume of stuff he's released

- Musically and song wise (not sales) way more hits than missies comparatively (in fact Axl's music is one of few artists don't think has ever released anything bad and I can listen to all of it)

- Just as prolific in terms of relevance over time with the exception of maybe Lennon - not a slam, but I don't know if anyone will release something on par with Imagine, ever

- Best voice of the bunch, and easily arguably anyone

He doesn't sound too bad. I won't say awful. Some songs are good.

agreed, but he sounds bad on most of the songs

The first few songs are OK, though

Most songs had a lot of good moments, some a couple of bad moments, overall it was a pretty good few hours.

Dude, I wasn't debating you, I was telling you.

If you're too lazy to google guns n roses tuned half step down, there's no help for you. Would have taken 1/1000th the time it took you to write that post.

Guns songs are tuned a half step down for the most part, this one included. Google it man.

It's not criticism, it's fact. Look at how nicely that song flows in half step down tuning. It's what gives guns songs their sound. They're not the only band, tons of bands do it, but guns does it all the time practically, this song included. It makes the song in a flat key sound, without the difficulty of playing it in that key on say a piano - try november rain on a piano, not tuned down a half step, there's some f'd up chords in there if you don't. Same as this song. If it turns a song into a song played in am or C on a piano (which axl plays) makes it night and day different and easier to play.

Agian, look at stinson's video one man mutiny, look at him playing G while dizzy plays F# on the piano.

Anyway, you can accept the truth or not, do yourself a favour, google it, might help your technical understanding of some songs in general.

Okay fine, lets continue.

First, please link me to these Google sources that state Chinese Democracy is a half step down. I am not debating that Appetite, Lies, UYI, GNR live performances, or Tommy Stinson songs are in standard tuning. They are not. I am saying there's quite a bit of evidence that the studio recordings on CD are in standard tuning. This is the point you are failing to dispute me on. Since CD is in standard tuning, that lead me to believe Going Down is as well, also the previously stated reason of the open note(s).

From my previous post:

...check the songs for yourself, play along to the opening riff of CD with those D F and G chords or the chorus to TWAT with B's and E's or Sorry which is clearly in D minor. Looks a lot like standard tuning to me. Now perhaps they tune a half step down live because it's easier for Axl to sing and the old material was already that way. But it's looking to me that most of if not all of CD is in standard tuning.

Lol again you with your prove it to you - it's like, i'm saying the sky is blue, and you're saying no it's not. Dude, there is no hope for you, head back into your hole, carry on...

Dude, so if you tune a half step down, and you play the B naturally it is a Bb - so you press the B string on the first fret, and what would have been a C, becomes a B.

Correct... but then it's not an open note. 1:28 is an open note.

Support for my arguments? It's called the way the fretboard works man. Open notes and fretted notes sound different? How the hell do you know what that guitar being played sounds like with an un-fretted or a fretted note? Are you comparing the sound of your guitar to someone else's guitar? - can't be done to determine how the note was played.

Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done.

I suggest some theory 101 for you...the evidence is called musical theory and common sense, dumbass.

I studied theory under a Berklee theory graduate for 3 years, my theory is solid. This is simple stuff, if you want to get into serious stuff I can talk about modal interchange, secondary dominance, and figured bass all day long, but that's not what this is about so shut it about the theory talk. You are unwilling to accept that CD is in standard tuning. Your argument for CD being a half step down is: "All Guns stuff is 1/2 step down." Better may be an exception, I do believe that song is indeed a half step down. But take a look at the other songs I noted in previous posts, they are clearly in standard tuning.

Now, this is really my last post in this thread, because this is getting redundant. Just to let you know, you still haven't provided any evidence for your points; you've disputed my points (to an ineffective degree), but that does not = you having evidence. Get me a video/interview of Foot/4tus/whoever saying that Going Down and CD is a 1/2 step down, OR prove it with theory (with your own theoretical content, not strings of general sentences and questions attempting to dispute my content). Have your last word, call me whatever expletive your mind can serve up, and move on.

You are insane, and delusional.

And Berkley should give you your tuition back - would you like the original cracker jacks back, or will you accept a brand new box of wheaties instead. Oh wait, you studied what? Under a berkley, theory graduate? WTF does that even mean, your nephew showed you some chords he learned at frosh week at college? Dude, seriously, save your made up credentials made to make you feel better about yourself, and put down the guitar, i'm afraid you might choke on it.

I'm really trying to keep my composure here, but you're pushing it. If an open B note is payed on the recording of Going Down (which I think happens at 1:28), the song couldn't be a half step down because that note would be a Bb. Open notes and closed notes sound different, even if they are the same pitch; my ears hear the open B. When I play along with the song, the B is correct and the Bb sounds clearly out of tune. You are still offering no support for your arguments while Route66 corroborated my stance. Your method of argumentation is flawed sir, not mine. You are failing to address my single point with evidence: CD is mostly (if not all, tbh I don't feel like going through it all, you can if you'd like) in standard tuning. Pick up your guitar, and play along with it. I'm done with this. If you have evidence, great! Show me. If not, go find some or FO.

Dude, so if you tune a half step down, and you play the B naturally it is a Bb - so you press the B string on the first fret, and what would have been a C, becomes a B.

Support for my arguments? It's called the way the fretboard works man. Open notes and fretted notes sound different? How the hell do you know what that guitar being played sounds like with an un-fretted or a fretted note? Are you comparing the sound of your guitar to someone else's guitar? - can't be done to determine how the note was played.

I suggest some theory 101 for you...the evidence is called musical theory and common sense, dumbass.

Original GNR is 1/2 step down. Chi Dem is mostly standard tuning. Simple.

Nope, most of their stuff is half step down - drop d some songs (better) the odd one in standard tuning, but look at the chords of this one, it transposes perfectly to the standard open tuning used in probably a majority of songs in the world.

If you can't see it, i'm sorry for you.

Went through this ...gnr usually tune down a half step. If you tune your guitar down a half step, the song seems to make sense and fall in line with rock n roll cowboy chords

The opening chords for example at standard tuning are:

B B F# F#

G# G# G# F#

C# C#

Tuned down a half step you play:

C C G G

A A A G

D D

I know what you're saying, but that's a bad habit. Tuned down a half step, the key is still F#, and you still play B F# G# C# but its on a different fret. So it's not really correct to say there are C G A or D chords in the song. A good reason for not getting into this habit is say a year from now you're trying out for an ensemble and the singer says do you know song "X"? Well of course you do, song "X" is in F#.... but you go and play and F chord, because you're tuned a half step down and that's the normal tuning F# position.

Anyway, the reason I chose to tab it out in standard tuning is because of the lead lick played at the tail end of the first chorus's second riff (if that makes sense, 1:28 in the song) . I examined this for a while and I'm pretty sure what is played is:

------------------|

---0--------------|

-----3-2v--------|

------------------|

------------------|

------------------|

My ears hear at least one open note being played. And if that is correct, the song couldn't be a half step down (unless that lick is on a separate audio track and was dubbed over, that's a bit harder to tell).

Though I am not 100% settled on this so if you have striking evidence, I'd be willing to change the tab/edit it.

Please explain to the world, how does your ears hearing 1 'open' note (in other words, an e, a, d, g, or a b) mean that the song can't be played on a guitar tuned a half step down??@?! That makes absolutely no sense at all. In fact, you can go a whole half step lower than all the open notes, PLUS still play all those open notes. Tuning a half step down doesn't take away the open notes - putting a capo on 1 takes away the open notes. And then, only some of the open notes. Some of the other open note can still be played on other strings.

With your statement of the fact you hear an 'open' note, so the song can't be played on a guitar tuned a half step down, shows you are either a looney tune, or you are having trouble with the concept and having trouble with working out transpositions. With the way you are arguing with me, that supports you being a looney tune, but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you are just having trouble with the concept of transposition.

I don't think it's a bad habit. I can almost guarantee that the song was written with reference to open tuning, either on a standard tuned guitar, or on a guitar tuned down half step. How do you play paradise city? I watch slash and every other guitarist play it with those same chords - do you do them one better and refuse to play a half step down, and play along in open tuning? ##Winner! lol

If it was written on a standard tuned guitar, when they recorded they dropped it a half step in tuning, like every gnr song recorded before, including appetite.

If it was written on a tuned down guitar, it was because it was the guitar they had lying around because that is what they use live.

Imo you're crazy if you try to play the songs of a band that tunes every song down a half step, in standard tuning. Why would you do that? Maybe you're trying to prove something to yourself??

I would actually say you're incorrect to say it's B B F# F#. Yes those ARE the notes, but they are only the notes because the guitars are tuned down, like every other song they wrote and play live, so tecnically it should be C C G G - but to give it that 'sound' and to make it a little easier to sing along to, like every other song they play, they tuned it down a half step, so that C becomes a B, and that G becomes an F#. If Tommy wrote it, which he probably did, do you think when he was putting the chord structure together, he was sitting around with an acoustic playing those chords? No, he was likely strumming G, C, D, A chord shapes, like a lot of his songs.

Look at their video recording of one man mutiny. Tommy's playing open chords on the acoustic, and look at Dizzy playing the piano - Dizzy's playing F#'s etc like you tabbed out on the piano. That's because Dizzy was using the hotel piano in standard tuning, not tuned down a half step, but he was playing along with Tommy using a guitar tuned down a half step, and tommy is playing those same chords on at song, G C D ...

No, I don't play along to old Guns recordings while I'm in standard tuning. I sure as hell play through songs just for fun on my own though in standard tuning ( and they still sound like the songs....weird).

And I think you're wrong about GNR's tuning. Yes, Appetite, Lies, UYI are certainly a half step down. But I don't think CD is. I just checked with the song CD, and There Was A Time. If they are tuned a half step down, they'd be played in a pretty unnecessary way. The songs make much more sense in standard tuning, check the songs for yourself, play along to the opening riff of CD with those D F and G chords or the chorus to TWAT with B's and E's or Sorry which is clearly in D minor. Looks a lot like standard tuning to me. Now perhaps they tune a half step down live because it's easier for Axl to sing and the old material was already that way. But it's looking to me that most of if not all of CD is in standard tuning.

I don't want to get in a never ending argument so this is the last I'll say on this; if you have video of Foot/4tus/whoever saying "yeah we do 1/2 step down in the studio" I'd be more inclined to agree with you, but for now I am going to leave the tab as is. Anyway, I do appreciate the criticism as it has helped me confirm my previous views, and good ol' debate is always a fun activity. Cheers.

Dude, I wasn't debating you, I was telling you.

If you're too lazy to google guns n roses tuned half step down, there's no help for you. Would have taken 1/1000th the time it took you to write that post.

Guns songs are tuned a half step down for the most part, this one included. Google it man.

It's not criticism, it's fact. Look at how nicely that song flows in half step down tuning. It's what gives guns songs their sound. They're not the only band, tons of bands do it, but guns does it all the time practically, this song included. It makes the song in a flat key sound, without the difficulty of playing it in that key on say a piano - try november rain on a piano, not tuned down a half step, there's some f'd up chords in there if you don't. Same as this song. If it turns a song into a song played in am or C on a piano (which axl plays) makes it night and day different and easier to play.

Agian, look at stinson's video one man mutiny, look at him playing G while dizzy plays F# on the piano.

Anyway, you can accept the truth or not, do yourself a favour, google it, might help your technical understanding of some songs in general.

Went through this ...gnr usually tune down a half step. If you tune your guitar down a half step, the song seems to make sense and fall in line with rock n roll cowboy chords

The opening chords for example at standard tuning are:

B B F# F#

G# G# G# F#

C# C#

Tuned down a half step you play:

C C G G

A A A G

D D

I know what you're saying, but that's a bad habit. Tuned down a half step, the key is still F#, and you still play B F# G# C# but its on a different fret. So it's not really correct to say there are C G A or D chords in the song. A good reason for not getting into this habit is say a year from now you're trying out for an ensemble and the singer says do you know song "X"? Well of course you do, song "X" is in F#.... but you go and play and F chord, because you're tuned a half step down and that's the normal tuning F# position.

Anyway, the reason I chose to tab it out in standard tuning is because of the lead lick played at the tail end of the first chorus's second riff (if that makes sense, 1:28 in the song) . I examined this for a while and I'm pretty sure what is played is:

------------------|

---0--------------|

-----3-2v--------|

------------------|

------------------|

------------------|

My ears hear at least one open note being played. And if that is correct, the song couldn't be a half step down (unless that lick is on a separate audio track and was dubbed over, that's a bit harder to tell).

Though I am not 100% settled on this so if you have striking evidence, I'd be willing to change the tab/edit it.

I don't think it's a bad habit. I can almost guarantee that the song was written with reference to open tuning, either on a standard tuned guitar, or on a guitar tuned down half step. How do you play paradise city? I watch slash and every other guitarist play it with those same chords - do you do them one better and refuse to play a half step down, and play along in open tuning? ##Winner! lol

If it was written on a standard tuned guitar, when they recorded they dropped it a half step in tuning, like every gnr song recorded before, including appetite.

If it was written on a tuned down guitar, it was because it was the guitar they had lying around because that is what they use live.

Imo you're crazy if you try to play the songs of a band that tunes every song down a half step, in standard tuning. Why would you do that? Maybe you're trying to prove something to yourself??

I would actually say you're incorrect to say it's B B F# F#. Yes those ARE the notes, but they are only the notes because the guitars are tuned down, like every other song they wrote and play live, so tecnically it should be C C G G - but to give it that 'sound' and to make it a little easier to sing along to, like every other song they play, they tuned it down a half step, so that C becomes a B, and that G becomes an F#. If Tommy wrote it, which he probably did, do you think when he was putting the chord structure together, he was sitting around with an acoustic playing those chords? No, he was likely strumming G, C, D, A chord shapes, like a lot of his songs.

Look at their video recording of one man mutiny. Tommy's playing open chords on the acoustic, and look at Dizzy playing the piano - Dizzy's playing F#'s etc like you tabbed out on the piano. That's because Dizzy was using the hotel piano in standard tuning, not tuned down a half step, but he was playing along with Tommy using a guitar tuned down a half step, and tommy is playing those same chords on at song, G C D ...

You freaking rock, man

Went through this ...gnr usually tune down a half step. If you tune your guitar down a half step, the song seems to make sense and fall in line with rock n roll cowboy chords

The opening chords for example at standard tuning are:

B B F# F#

G# G# G# F#

C# C#

Tuned down a half step you play:

C C G G

A A A G

D D

Was that from the dreaded 1st night? Sounds wonderful!

They almost always sound good. Someone just happened to get a good sounding recording.

And was pitman playing a rag?

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/sebastian-bach-and-jon-bon-jovi-end-decades-long-hair-metal-feud/

Sorry if this is old news but I just came across this.

I thought there was a feud between Axl & Jon Bon Jovi. And now they're sipping wine together in a f'n restaurant?

Is there something I missed?

This is interesting. Bon Jovi is a prick - Sambora is cool and probably felt bad about it...if you read the article, Bon Jovi took a cut of Skid Row's contract. What a prick. Is that why Axl dissed Bon Jovi? If so then good on Axl.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Nobody thought that we would become a big band. That happens all the time in the music industry. Jon was like, ‘We’ll take you on tour, but if you guys make it big,’ then he gets a cut of it,” Bach explained. “So I was bitter about that for awhile, but then I realized that we probably wouldn’t have made it as big, or maybe at all, if he didn’t take us.”

Sambora eventually gave his share of the deal back to Skid Row — but Bon Jovi, being the shrewd steel horse-riding businessman he is, decided not to follow suit. All of which made it a little awkward when Bach, who was having dinner with Axl Rose, bumped into his former benefactor at a restaurant in London.

Thanks.

This song's growing on me. Seems like it could be a good strummer. The lyrics I can make out are pretty sweet.

Here's the lyrics as I can hear (don't want to get into all the repetitions). Have't tried to play it yet. Anyone have a good ear and can place the chord changes?

i know this shade of grey
its a crown of thorns
never seems to break the skin
there's no blood or scars
just your broken faith

you used to be so sweet

you walked with a smile
ashtray's full and the coffee's cold
recuse yourself
make it look so..

you've got noting good to say
keep your mouth shut
nothing good to do
do it to yourself
cause nothing's ever good enough for you

i'm, sick of everything you say
as you're going down
sorry for everything

sick of everything that you do
as you're going down
looking like a fool

and you never mean to hurt no one
they just happen to be there next to you
you're going down
(as you're going down)

i know this dark place
i've heard these words
i've heard them coming from familiar tongues
i've heard them yelled
i've even head them sung

get into your car and drive
just as fast as you can
you had your 15 minutes
you tried to take an hour
now no one hears you call

I liked Fernando's statement but his glowing testimony of Jarmo's zombieland was laughable.

I agree with this and I think this is a the heart of the issues.

It's one thing to defend people bashing yourself or your family and friends, which isn't cool, but to hold up a censored board, controlled by you, as some utopia of communication, in a situation where conflict arose from communication and lack of self control of your views, speaks volumes. The argument someone said something bad about you, and therefore no one should be able to say anything about anything unless it's approved by you or like minded people, is a little scary.