JustanUrchin

On ‎4‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 9:59 PM, Jeez said:

Just curious, but if they were to release something related to AFD, wouldn't Izzy and Adler have to sign off on it too?

On ‎4‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 3:21 PM, Order of Nine said:

Ohhhhh don't worry he will respond all right, it's just a matter of time. More nostalgic wish full thinking banter laced with bitterness and back handedness comments will ensue soon.

On ‎4‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 3:04 AM, slim26 said:

Unless the new album has contributions from Izzy and Steven (extremely unlikely unless it's remastered AFD) it would have lawsuits written all over it for misrepresenting them.  I hope my assumptions based on logic and history of promotion for this band is proven wrong and its actually something to get excited about such as new songs or live performances with Izzy and Steven, but I doubt it.  Fool me once shame on them, fool me consitently for 25 years, shame on me.

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 5:32 PM, Deniz said:

Any fan who sees this is immediately gonna think an AFD5 reunion. And the GN'R camp knows this.

So if this is some afd re-release thing tricking us to think it's a reunion gig just to get some hype, then i hope Axl is ready for the backlash.

Sorry for the pessimism but i've been let down by GN'R marketing strategies too many times.

3 hours ago, Live Like a Suicide said:

Desperation.

And an attempt at riding the promo bandwagon.

Quotes two and five:  One-fifth of all publishing of the #1 debut-selling album of all time?  Adler.  Laying down the party feel and groove to arguably the greatest hard rock album of all time?  Adler.  Taking pride in the music and the four other musicians who created and recorded it?  Adler.  The only one who says whatever the fuck he pleases and is still rn’r?  Adler.

Quick, but fun, legal facts to snuff out myth propagated in this thread by the few (I am NOT directing this at the three remaining quotes, merely answering their questions along the way) as users visit for news related to this viral marketing campaign imagined and launched by Universal:

LiveNation is the legal entity acting as promoter for the NITL tour.  Period.  No one’s personal “manager” is promoting the tour any more than you and I are by speaking or writing about it.  Universal is promoting the matter that it says will be divulged on Friday.

Slash maintains his own separate management and counsel apart from D/A.  Duff has his own separate management and counsel apart from S/A.  The singer is managed by his live-ins. The singer’s manager(s), thus, do not manage Slash or Duff.  Full stop.

The partnership formed by S/D/A can promote (or authorize third parties on its behalf, such as Universal) any and all endeavors using the imagery/artwork depicting the likeness of Adler and Izzy.  The S/D/A p’ship owns the back catalogue (AFD-UYI).  S/D/A control p’ship assets for licensing, synch and merch for all purposes, including promotional. 

Adler was unlawfully removed from the original p’ship, and thoroughly trounced S/D/A in legal proceedings, including for damages.  Izzy sold his equity share to S/D/A in ‘91.  A financially wise move—for the next quarter century.  Both Adler and Izzy maintain publishing royalties.

The singer owns the mark Guns n’ Roses.  He pirated it in a ’92 MOU to the p’ship agreement, and S/D failed to bring a colorable claim within Cali’s four-year statute of limitations.  Legal averments in pleadings (that were not denied by the singer’s counsel, and therefore deemed admitted) prove that the singer formed a new band on NYD ’96 and registered a new p’ship.  His new legal entity controlled the use of its assets after ’96, which translates to 15 songs, 14 of which landed on Wikipedia’s list of worst all-time albums.  The singer never controlled the back catalogue or original p’ship assets, though attempted to do so, and was met with litigation brought by Original Remaining Partners S/D, losing once again.  The S/D/A p’ship continued throughout with S/D in effect the majority.  This is why, e.g., the singer could not license songs or merchandize S/D/A logos and artwork.  To simplify, from NYD ’96 until 2016, there were two biz entities d/b/a Guns n’ Roses:  1. S/D/A and 2. Rose’s solo band (having legal use of the mark Guns n’ Roses—be it for a line of shorty-shorts, pianos or any other endeavor).

Each of these myths fester in stench on the pages in this thread.  One need not wonder long why a handful of users distract the rest with myth even when, in this case, it’s a release of some sort by Universal.  All that to get to this:  has the singer lost his mind?  He agreed with S/D to rerelease new-old music and potentially a few notes of new-new music?  Not in this lifetime.

11 hours ago, Live Like a Suicide said:

I doubt it. Having Izzy and Steven there would completely undermine the NITL tour and the semi-reunited lineup. Everybody would be asking why they weren't there previously, or why they wouldn't be there on the next American leg. It would be unwise to shoot oneself in the foot like that, and while GN'R's management isn't exactly a shining beacon of intelligence, i doubt they would be stupid enough to pay a larger amount of money to have Izzy and Steven for a night, only to damage the current standing of the band and the NITL tour.

Rumor has it that tomorrow is the celebration of AFD.  That means the five individuals who signed a recording K with Geffen, formed a p’ship, registered said p’ship and marks, and wrote, recorded and toured one of the most iconic albums in rock history.  Oh, and it was (and will forever remain) the #1 selling debut album of all-time.  For comparative purposes, next year is the 10-year anniversary of my team’s WS championship.  I can guarantee you that no one, quite literally, would accept Middelton, the Bucks or Montgomery trotting out anything less than ALL 25 living members of that squad EXCEPT Jayson Werth who’s playing for another team.  And that includes no stunt doubles or look-a-likes.  Everyone knows Phillies fans would n-e-v-e-r accept such a fraud, and ESPECIALLY if Middleton, the Bucks or Montgomery refused to bring back all 25 for pecuniary gain.  They’d be figuratively lynched for even considering such a fraud, and no one would give another hard-earned dollar to that franchise except for the random ownership apologist.

To the above quote.  How anyone can post, contrary to known public fact, legal impossibility with such conviction is nothing short of stupefying.  Slash has his own separate management and counsel.  Duff has his own separate management and counsel.  The singer is ‘managed’ by live-ins.  Gn’R is a trademark.  Gn’R is NOT a “band” consisting of S/D/A and AR’s employees (the what-have-yous on “keys,” Adler’s fourth replacement and the Izzy look-a-like).  The singer has owned that mark since NYE ’95 when he quit Original Gn’R (“Leaving Partner”) to form “a new band” and “a new p’ship” (quoting the singer’s legal notice and averments in pleadings).  Anyone reading any post referencing ‘Gn’R management’ immediately knows that whatever follows such an assertion is fictional because there is no ‘Gn’R management.’

Adler will be rockin his authentic swing and party feel to HIS songs.  But what about Izzy?  And what about you, the AFD fan?  Will you continue to line the pockets of S/D/A this fall by purchasing trinkets and $300 tickets to listen to 30-year old songs performed by 3 originals and their cover band?  There is no quarter of a billion dollar tour, trinketfest, and synch/licensing extravaganza without AFD just as there was no ’08 WS championship without those 25 Phillies.

AFD was and is authentic.  It is timeless.  What about tomorrow?  Have S/D/A, with their pot (now mountain) of gold, agreed to compensate/split the loot with that final fifth to man his side of the stage tomorrow for HIS songs?  Forget about LN and American arenas this fall, tomorrow is a S/D/A decision promoted by Sirius as a AFD celebration.

20 hours ago, beautifulanddamned said:

More than likely, the rumors were correct and Slash and Duff's contracts are up in 2017 which is why they keep adding shows and packing the schedule.

 

19 hours ago, ramsey said:

Can you expand on the rumors surrounding Duff/Slash contracts or provide a source? Thanks! 

To a certainty, the future does not hold any conceivable iteration of the patently absurd Axl apologist myth advanced—or naively reproduced—in the above quote.  Forget the sourcing of this myth, which is traceable to an Axl apologist forum for the few (whose proprietor has gone silent in the months since the S/D/A p’ship reunion, or so I’m informed)—it’s demonstrably and legally false.

The core of this myth is that the Remaining Partners of Original Gn’R, Slash and Duff, who have controlled the back catalogue—merchandising, branding, synch, licensing, etc. since NYD ’96 when the singer quit Original Gn’R to form his solo band, Axl’s Gn’R (a “new band,” by registering “a new p’ship which was only an effort to salvage Guns n’ Roses not steal it,” as quoted from the singer’s legal notice to S/D and his ‘open letter’), have signed a ‘two-year work-for-hire’ contract.  Yes, you read that right:  this legal myth is that the two Remaining Partners of Original Gn’R who control the back catalogue signed a two-year work-for-hire contract with Axl’s solo band.  Only in the land of Axl urinal-sniffers could anyone utter such a declaration with a straight face.

Backing up.  There are myriad of contracts with any biz org, including this entity.  This biz org has counsel, management, recording, distribution, publishing, order-of-rights, promoter, and on and on (and on) contracts.  Slash has his own counsel and management.  Duff has his own and separate counsel and management.  The singer has his live-ins.  Said live-ins manage Adler’s fourth replacement, the Izzy look-a-like and the two what-have-yous on “keys.”  (See “Crew and Credits” from NITL for citation).  The conglomerate promoter, LiveNation (and its insurers), run the show, and professionally so.  Specific division of loss (from S/D) and assuredly LN’s insurers have the singer’s ass out on stage in broad daylight and treating customers/buyers with respect, if you need a concrete example.

Reinforcing the legality and this biz org’s structure, there’s a mountain of indisputable and publicly known fact to further refute this myth.  Opie Skjerseth, July 26, 2016:  in regards to S/D/A, “all three of them” decided on the enormous overhead of staging—this critical biz decision was made collectively.  On July 7, 2016, a writer who interviewed Duff, wrote that the “business kept the band together even when they were apart,” and that “they stayed in touch thanks to their shared interest in merchandise and music royalties.”  Duff, moreover, “called the Gn’R reunion a mutual decision.”  From Globo regarding decision-making on songs from his prior solo band’s only album, thes singer stated:  “I really didn't have anything to do with that” and that “they [Slash and Duff] stepped to that on their own.”  At China Exchange, Axl stated that he didn’t tell Slash how to play said songs and, “had no idea how they were going to sound.”  At the CE, Axl stated that, “I do want to put out more music []…[a]nd I don’t know if that has to do with Slash or not but underneath the Guns n’ Roses thing [brand], and, um, if he and I write something or he wants to play on something that we have, it’s like that would be great.”  Slash determines if he’ll create new tunes and whether he wants to work up any prior ideas.  According to Axl, “that would be great” if Slash chooses to do so.  Employees of an entity, conversely, work as directed by their employer. 

The singer crawled back to Remaining Original Gn’R Partners in 2014 to license his solo band’s DVD.  The singer propositioned Slash in 2015 and sought Slash’s number.  The singer is touring 30 year-old songs to the tune of a quarter of a billion (gross) ticketing biz as a consequence.

--------

There are eyes on this forum.  Hi, Izzy!  You were badass in ’88 when I saw you, but not so much in ’91 in Hershey.  Can’t blame ya, though.  That disaster set sail the following month in St. Louis.  I’da done the same as you in November ’91—selling your equity share and relieving yourself from liability and draws from your capital account for the singer’s voluminous litigation and criminal charges due to his assholery and fan disrespect!  You were proven right for 25 years, until this quarter of a billion grossing monstrosity touring your songs reconvened last year.  Gotta say, though, you need to be a bit more direct than “Stuck in the Middle,” “F.P. Money,” and your “bullshit” tweet.  Despite Adler prevailing over you (and the other 3) in ’91, he’s been more successful being direct, no?  Get to the table, with effective represent’n, if you haven’t already.  I hear it’s AFD 30 next month, for chrissakes!  I'll cut ya a deal, if you can't find anyone effective.  After all, I was in a fistfight with a Crue fan back in the day in they gym for calling you 'greezy."

Hey, to the gal on the Axl revisionist forum that plagiarizes me and to the web ‘journalist’ who peddles her plagiarism of me!  The pleadings and legal fact are of public record.  Do your own research and craft it into a readable/understandable post for all education levels to consume rather than plagiarizing me as to what is “legally significant.”

Hi, to the muzzled live-ins managing the singer!  LiveNation sure has put the kibosh to you.  A shame, huh?  But keep an eye on the target—the singer’s back pocket.  It’s growing by the day.  Even Elvis’ posse would be jealous!

To the rest of you regular fuckers who just want to rock TFO to AFD 30, just like me, keep up the good fight beating back the myth-pushers and clamping down on the unabashed greed of S/D/A.  Gn’R fans are badass!  They always were!

10 hours ago, Axl_morris said:

Keef wants to be in the stones

Izzy doesn't want to be in GNR.

14 hours ago, Zurimor said:

What a bunch bullshit. Of course he is a member of the band, after 16 years you aren't just an employee anymore, even if that would be the case on paper.  It's also not true that nobody wants to hear CD, I like that album. Furthermore, CD sold several million copies, that's not a fail at all. It fell behind expectations, yes, but a fail is something different, not an album that sold several million times (billboard says 5.6 million, too lazy to read through this thread now: http://www.mygnrforum.com/index.php?/topic/170442-how-many-copies-chinese-democracy-really-sold/).

14 hours ago, AlexC said:

Grammys don't mean shit.

As anticipation grows about the possibilities next month because, well, because AFD is the #1 debut selling of ALL-TIME and because it remains one of the most ICONIC rock albums ever, the handful of remaining Axl apologists relentlessly peddle myth in this and other threads.  It seems high time to PIN basic legal fact to the D&N section in a simple, succinct list format to quash the incessant propaganda of the few.

The Axl apologist training course, in summation:

Step 1, chant the following about the two decades of Axl’s solo band:  Grammies don’t mean shit.  Album sales don’t mean shit.  YT views don’t mean shit.  Fifteen original songs in 26 years, the collection of 14 which crawled onto Wikipedia’s short-list of worst all-time albums, doesn’t mean shit.  Axl playing AFD-UYI covers at backyard bbq’s and bowling alleys with a busload of revolving-door cover "artists" doesn’t mean shit.

Step 2, conflate Axl urinal-sniffing with legal fact:   

Urinal-sniffing 1:  Axl’s 15 original songs in 26 years “is Gn’R.”  Legal fact 1:  Axl withdrew from the Gn’R General Partnership on NYE ’95 after providing legal notice the summer prior.  Two biz entities d/b/a Gn’R existed after that date.  One, which is Original Gn’R as referred (correctly) to in legal pleadings, and the other, which is Axl’s Gn’R as referred (correctly) to in legal pleadings.  Slash and Duff, as Remaining Partners, were Original Gn’R after said date and, as such, thereafter controlled Original Gn’R p’ship assets—AFD through UYI—licensing, merchandising, etc.  Axl, as principal, controlled Axl’s Gn’R post-NYE 1995, and thereafter whatever he released into the marketplace that was a product of his solo band.

Urinal-sniffing 2:  Axl’s 15 original songs in 26 years “is Gn’R because that’s the mark on the album cover.”  Legal fact 2:  S/D/A executed a MOU in ‘92, which included an amendment that Axl would retain the exclusive right to the mark “Guns n’ Roses” if he withdrew from the p’ship.  Axl could, legally then, use the mark Gn’R for any venture thereafter—be it a pastry sole proprietorship or an incorporated cattle ranch or anything in between.  Slash and Duff, legally then, could not use the mark Gn’R under which to perform if Axl withdrew or was terminated.  Three years to the day of the executed MOU, Axl provided legal notice that he was withdrawing from Original Gn’R and, given that he would retain exclusive right to the use of the mark, he gave Slash and Duff notice that he, Axl, intended to use the mark “in connection with a new group that I will form.”

Urinal-sniffing 3:  S/DM/IS/SA/AR are “not original Gn’R.”  Legal fact 3:  The o-r-i-g-i-n-a-l Gn’R is the five individuals who signed a recording contract with Geffen, formed a General Partnership, registered said p’ship with the Cali DoS, and registered the marks and (copy) rights.   Said o-r-i-g-i-n-a-l legal partners recorded and toured the #1 debut selling album of ALL-TIME.  No other natural person can claim (for pecuniary gain) to be original unless he or she cares to reply to a cease-and-desist letter and defend against subsequent injunctive relief and damages litigation.  There can be no revisionism of original Gn’R.  It is legal fact. 

Unrelated urinal-sniffing (but propagandized by Axl revisionists to appear related):  references to a post-NYD ’96 RECORDING agreement further corroborates the above legal fact while conflating basic legal principles.  Axl, with brand name in tow, formed Axl’s Gn’R in ’96 and, in May ’98, both Slash and Duff executed amendments to the ’92 RECORDING agreement to prevent Axl from drawing from their royalty (not capital) accounts to finance his solo band’s ‘recording,’ said solo recording which ultimately was released a decade later.  While in control of Original Gn’R, S/D became leaving MEMBERS of the RECORDING agreement while Axl was a terminated PARTNER of Original Gn’R.

Based upon averments that were not specifically denied and thus deemed admitted, it is indisputable that Axl quit Original Gn’R for control:  the control of the mark, and employer control of any natural person in his post-NYD ’96 solo band.  History shows what Axl did with control of the mark “Guns n’ Roses,” and, ultimately, capitulating after two decades to Original Gn’R Remaining Partners Slash and Duff to license, synch and merchandise Original Gn’R.  Forgetting the killing S/D/A are raking on merchandising and licensing for NASCAR and the like, ticketing alone has grossed more than a quarter of a billion dollars, Axl capitulated legally (and he capitulated in the practical sense—he admitted in the D/A south of America interview last fall that he requested Slash’s number).  Not in This Lifetime.  Indeed.

Did Axl capitulate to remaining Original Gn’R partners Slash and Duff for you, the Axl apologist?  For the joy of performing 30 year-old songs that were the subject of voluminous litigation with Slash and Duff?  For the burning desire to create new music with Slash and Duff and to release it to you, the Axl apologist?  To release solo tunes from a mythical "vault," when 14 of the BEST 15 of those best mid-temp piano yawners landed on Wikipedia's worst all-time albums and he had to resort to covering Gn'R at backyard bbq's and weddings to pay his live-ins and employees (to some extent, anyhow, not including one of his "keyboardists")?  For other reason(s)?  There sure is a fuckload of money in gate, merchandising and licensing/synch by capitulating to the Remaining Partners and performing to seas of buyers/customers in packed stadiums across the world, many of whom are sporting fresh Gn’R shirts and venue-specific trinkets.

----------

To everyone else who just wants to rock TFO to celebrate the #1 debut selling album of ALL-TIME next month with all FIVE ready, willing and able original partners:  Adler’s flurry of activity after the presumptive one-year K/NDA expired January 2017 was an extension of his prior (successful) pressure/negotiation-tactics in late 2015 (months later he had his ass on kit to perform ALL AFD songs until his injury).  Then he fell silent in March 2017, but in typical Adler fashion threw in a nugget of repetitive fact (this is the guy who has beaten down S/D/A/I in legal proceedings):  “I don't have nothing else to say about it.  I'm really sorry.  That's all I can tell you.  There's nothing to say.  I literally, literally honest to god literally, I can't even tell you why I can't tell you anymore.  Literally, okay?  I really can't.  I just can't."  Adler should be pissing up the S/D/A tree as he was in late 2015 just before he fell silent.  Yet is not.  A NDA would not reach his thoughts/opinions forward or past-looking, only his time under the K/NDA in 2016.  He should be out-and-about precisely now, but is not.

It’s your call.  Adler is my bellwether.  He’ll be returning.  But at the “Apollo?”  Axl/LN must pretend that Axl is “super-diverse” given OIAM.  We have the D/A south of America interview last fall re Izzy, and Izzy’s “bullshit” reply, Izzy’s F.P. Money and, before that, Izzy’s “Stuck in the Middle with You.”  We’ve got the conglomerate LN running the show, leasing the marked LN jet, and a massive-grossing world-wide tour.  Not good for AFD 30.  But we’ve got Adler’s newfound silence.  It’s a push.  Does the greed of S/D/A (gate, licensing, merch, synch) and LN (“diverse, big tent”) prevail over renegotiating with Izzy and having Adler on the kit for all HIS songs?  I sniff the stench of greed and politics of a one-off or brief series given the scheduled spate of American shows in the can.  But surely so, too, does LN, Slash’s separate counsel and management and Duff’s separate counsel and management.  And maybe even Axl’s live-ins are vaguely aware of the extra dollars that they could eye in Axl’s pocket.  LN has data culling and analytics at its disposal on social media posts.  There is a balloon of mentions/likes/reposts each time Adler appeared and a spike when there’s been any indication of a full FIVE reunion.  In the end, the greed of S/D/A and LN may be to our—the AFD fans’—good.  Perverse, right?

The randomness of, and interesting stories from old time fans in, this thread motivates me to contribute a few of my own random stories:

1. Adler's fourth replacement sent me a friend request on FB last July.  I never accepted, and he later withdrew the request. (It's not as inexplicable as it seems, but too much backstory to convey pecking away on a mobile).

2.  The second time that I saw Gn'R (in June '91), I had the distinct sense that this was the end of the band.  The band made the fans wait in the sweltering heat (this was before it later became public fact that this was a pattern of disrespect by the band's singer).  The singer sounded terrible. Fans were throwing all sorts of shit at the band (most of it was hitting other fans).  Izzy basically stood in place most of the show as if he had concrete blocks on his feet.  I couldn't make sense of the songs--Adler's first replacement was a metal drummer--the songs now had the feel of a english metal band. But my clearest memory, despite being latched onto the barricade at Slash's feet, Slash talking to me and my friends, Slash wearing my friend's OU hat across the stage before tossing it into the crowd, and the singer shaking (literally) my hand, was that there was a KEYBOARDIST on stage.  I shit you not. A keyboard/synthesizer was on a Gn'R stage.  Everyone, and I mean all other 8 guys I went with, could not believe there was some guy with a keyboard on stage.  The only word that fits is betrayal (at the time, though, it was just the repeated use of combinations of "fuck" and "hate" between the 9 of us, and scores more in the parking lot after the show). Gn'R was everything that Bon Jovi, Stryper, Van Halen and the like were not. Or so we'd thought.  Beyond that, NO ONE could figure out wtf (yes, people said "what the fuck" as a proper way to introduce a question back then) the guy with the keys was DOING during the songs--was he even playing? Given these facts (and atmosphere), and if it was anywhere near as hot a month or so later in St. Louis, the singer should count his Lucky Charms none of the paying customers beat his scrawny ass when he threw a hissy fit and walked off stage.

3.  Despite this, I stood outside the record store that fall for the release of UYI at midnight.  I had faith, even if many of my friends no longer did (and the music scene was shifting).  When I finally had my turn at the counter, the mom n' pop record store had cassettes, but I had a deck in my car.  It was for the best, in retrospect.  I gave both tapes a glorious go for a solid two weeks, and haven't played anything from UYI since.  By the time the singer's Liberace piano piece (with said singer in spandex shorty-shorts, a heavy dose of horns, gospel singers, Duff looking like a corpse, and some Izzy look-a-like playing Izzy parts) hit MTV, I was already pretending that I didn't own UYI.  This is when, apparently, Gn'R found glory south of America and in Europe even as it simultaneously became irrelevant in America for the next quarter century.

4. I agree with Slash, Duff and Adler's statements years later:  the band was no longer a band by '90.  But I didn't know it until June 6, 1991.  For a moment, last July, it was but one piece away.  Here's to the final fifth this July!

6 hours ago, BangoSkank said:

I am totally shocked (sort of) that any of you thought it was anything besides tour dates. They do this stuff all the time (so do a lot of bands actually). It's just a way of marketing the tour and generating interest, I don't feel betrayed or annoyed in the least bit. I will never get over the fact that I'm seeing Axl & Slash play together now. That is something I was absolutely positive would never, ever happen - so I'll never be bummed that they're together again and playing three-ish hour shows. It's nice to see them doing well too instead of the norm for the last 15 years of Axl touring, underwhelming attendance, douches ripping on no Slash, etc. So I'm honestly thrilled with how it's been going. Not holding my breath for new music, but would love it if it came. 

Where I do feel  betrayed is in these prices. They are just absolutely fucking repulsive. $256 (before fees) to sit on the floor at MSG. Imagine you're a guy who wants to take his wife and two kids to see GN'R at MSG. Plenty of regular dudes want to do that and if you want to sit on the floor and actually see the band it's over $1,000.  Imagine you want to sit in the lower bowl with your family of four - $600 before fees. 

I just can't fucking believe shows are priced at this level anymore. $100 max is what it should be for good seats unless you want a VIP package. 

I'll be at at least one MSG show (not two because who the fuck can afford it) and sitting in the top bowl, wishing one of my favorite bands wasn't going to rip me off to be in GA (where my heart so desires).

An ode to 75 pages of bent over fans after the promos, including radio stations, claiming an earth-shattering announcement: 

While we’re breakin’ your backs n’

Fans are rackin’ their brains

It don’t matter how we do it

‘Cause ticket prices will be the same

You can push us for the originals

But our wallets are gettin’ thicker

And you can dream on it ‘til mornin’

But this grab will never end

Don’t forget about our shitty merch

With our ridiculous price demands

An’ we won’t pity your pocket

But our political posts are more than you can stand

‘Cause it ain’t on our radar

So don’t tell us ‘bout it again

‘Cause twenty-five years is forever

And we still haven’t grown up yet

Izzy could be onstage of mine

But he’s waaaaaaay outta line

With his loot split rappin’

And his F.P. Money tongue

He gets nothin’ done

I said we could be

Tourin’ his songs

We should be

Makin’ bank on his songs

I said he could be

He should be

He should be onstage of mine

But the LOOT’S ALL MINE, MINE, MINE, MINE…YAAAAAAAAAH

On the eve of what would appear to be exciting news for Gn’R fans (Izzy and Adler, and perhaps one or more new tunes?)—news that may bring me (and many others) back into the fold—it seems time to dust off legal facts.

The o-r-i-g-i-n-a-l Guns n’ Roses is the five individuals who signed a recording contract with Geffen, registered their biz entity as a general p’ship with the California DOS, trademarked the brand (band), and wrote, recorded and copyrighted the first Gn’R album.

There is thus no other o-r-i-g-i-n-a-l Gn’R than Slash, Duff, Izzy, Adler and Axl.  This is legal fact.  Any other assertion is a legal impossibility, and thus, false.

Anyone who attempts to claim otherwise (while seeking pecuniary benefit) would first receive a cease-and-desist letter, and if said party/ies continued to infringe upon copyrighted or trademarked images or sounds or claims of being “original” to the band, said party/ies would be sued.  Ask yourself, then, who—what entity—can enforce and protect the rights of Gn’R copyrighted and trademarked material?  Further, ask yourself why Axl could n-e-v-e-r license this biz entity’s product—its images, marks and sounds (in other words, said images, marks and sounds owned by the S/D/A p’ship that had been created by the S/D/I/A/A p’ship)?

Subsequent to Adler being fired, S/D/A purchased Izzy’s equity share/capital account (with their individual cash) when Izzy withdrew from the p’ship in ‘91, and thereafter formed a new p’ship—the S/D/A p’ship.  During this period, however, Axl, legally secured the exclusive right to the brand name—Guns n’ Roses.  Soapy Smith would’ve been proud of such maneuvering—albeit Mr. Smith swindled presumably sober individuals.

With brand name in tow, Axl ventured to continue his raging dictatorial delusions, and “employ” both Slash and Duff in Axl’s solo band.  Said solo band, and Axl in his individual capacity, had sole legal right to the use (historical misuse) of the brand name moving forward.  Slash said, in legal effect, “fuck off” in ’96 and Duff said, in legal effect, “fuck off” in ’97.

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The legal and end results?  The legal result was that Axl retained a brand name for two decades by which he apparently supported himself, his live-ins, and work-for-hire musicians during those two decades by touring under said brand name while performing S/D/A p’ship tunes.  To some degree, anyhow.  One of his former employees, a keyboardist, sued him for failing to pay him for work performed.  Axl attempted to use or license p’ship material during that time, and was met with S/D litigation, which resulted, in part, in Axl “re-recording” AFD.  As ridiculous (and desperate) as that may seem to “re-record” an iconic album, he could not legally/financially benefit/control that material unless he did so (while paying the p’ship/copyrighted artists).  Axl also released 15 songs in 25 years with his solo band, 14 of which landed on Wikipedia’s worst-ever albums.  Over those two decades, Slash and Duff controlled whether and when and for what price (2/3 vote majority vote) any S/D/A asset would be licensed or otherwise used (the original/lucrative Gn’R assets—licensing, merchandising, etc.).  Slash and Duff (and Izzy and even Adler), meanwhile, pumped out new tune after new tune during those two decades.  Slash and Duff (and Sorum) also won Grammies.

The question then becomes, beyond the arguably unparalleled embarrassment and train wreck that Axl was for a quarter-century in which he hired and fired musicians, managers and promoters like one would expect of Mao, and blew through outrageous recording advances like Monopoly money as the standby butt of late-night talk show and peer musician mockery—when has Axl controlled ANYTHING other than the brand name and his employees in his two-decade solo band, its music (or lack thereof), and touring of said solo band?

Stated differently, Axl doesn’t control shit.  He never did.  It’s myth propagated by Axl apologists.  Myth and near-delusional horseshit that is crushed by legal fact.  Axl legally owned, at least until January 1, 2016, the brand name.  Any and all legally relevant fact since that time support an amended, modified or new S/D/A p’ship agreement.  While I have neither the time nor inclination to recite it, you may, if so inclined, search my prior posts as they are few and all relevant to the topic are supported and sourced by legally relevant, current fact. 

Axl has always been legally controlled, after Izzy’s w/drawl from the p’ship, by Slash and Duff.  Axl is further controlled, and marginalized, since January 1, 2016.  By what?  A quarter-of-a-billion-dollar grossing biz entity (and growing) being administered and controlled by Live Nation, a conglomerate with many subsidiaries (including the publishing house Roc Nation—promoting new Gn’R music?), Slash’s separate management (and counsel), Duff’s separate management (and counsel), and Axl’s separate live-in management and familial accounting.  Again, refer to my sparse prior posts for supporting and sourced fact.  Axl is, moreover, controlled by specific division of loss terms, assuredly forced upon him by S/D’s counsel AND Live Nation.  This controls not only his behavior on-stage (zero diva hissy-fits and zero criminal behavior like inciting riots) but his timeliness and legally FORCED respect for paying consumers of the S/D/A product—ticketing for live performances and a beastly killing on merchandising, and licensing, e.g., NASCAR).

While maynard, Sunset Gardner, Free Bird, todreamofwolves, and the dude/dudette with the string of numbers name are mowing down the Axl apologist propaganda, an additional hand never hurts.  Apologies in advance if I’m missing any others stating legally relevant facts as I‘ve scrolled through just the last few pages.  And yes, feel free to cut and paste anything from this post above the ------------ as it is legal fact, and because I rarely post on Gn’R boards but am routinely asked in PM’s if copying from my posts is cool.  Hell, yeah!  Rock the fuck on.  Axl apologist propaganda bullshit has no place on these boards post-January 1, 2016, if it ever did.

Regarding Izzy’s whatever-the-number replacement, who apparently was the subject of this thread, this guy is in his 50’s and has zero known riffs.  I repeat.  The guy is in his 50’s, is a guitarist, and no one knows him from a can of paint.  The guy feeds his family by playing Izzy’s chords and attempting to look like Izzy.  Hell, even Adler mistook him for Izzy from a distance.  He has, though, recorded and/or toured with Rihanna and NSYNC.  Izzy would be rolling in his grave, if he were in one, like the rest of us Gn’R fans who saw the o-r-g-i-n-a-l band.

Then again, Izzy is ready, willing and able.  But S/D/A are bathing in ticketing and merchandising to the tune of a quarter of a billion before we get into NASCAR licensing and so forth, and (perhaps until tomorrow), refuse to split the loot with Izzy as they tour on the backs of songs that he co-wrote.

Fascinating disclosure of legally significant facts by Mr. Adler, even if unintentionally.

Backing up.  While I sold my tickets last summer after Gn’R sounded like, well, Gn’R for the first time since ’90—the party feel that only Adler can bring to the seedy lyrics and raunchy guitars—but before the S/D/A reconstituted partnership arrived at my venue, I stumbled upon the Adler interviews today and had to re-read the transcripts.  Several times.  The legally relevant parts, anyhow.

Judging by the comments here, it is apparent that few, if any, posters ever saw Gn’R live.  That means, of course, the o-r-i-g-i-n-a-l five individuals who signed a recording contract as Guns n’ Roses, registered the brand (band) name, executed a p’ship agreement, and recorded and performed the band’s music under said recording contract.  I’d venture to say that those who were never part of the scene when it mattered are the types twisting and turning legal facts to suit their opinion that Adler’s fourth replacement drummer—who looks like he rolled out of the sleeper of a rig and has all the feel of the Elephant Man on the kit—is in any way imaginable better suited to play AFD and Lies while Adler stands on the side of the stage and watches this lardass in a skull cap and prison loafers deaden badass songs (and thinks about pushing his fourth replacement down the stairs.  Funny, incidentally!).  The whole damn stadium turned the volume up to 11 and erupted when Adler rocked the stage last summer.  I thought he—and they—were going to break my Periscope feed.

Axl has released 15 songs in 26 years—and counting—14 of which landed on Wikipedia’s worst all-time albums.  He was the butt of late-night talk-show jokes.  Axl was playing high school proms without Slash and Duff.  Slash and Duff, meanwhile, were winning Grammies and pumping out rock music.  As, too, was Izzy.  Album after album.  I listen to Octane, so that is my barometer for new rock music.  Octane does it better than anyone, for my money.   For all those Axl-apologists, Adler’s songs, like “Good to Be Bad,” were in heavy rotation on Octane, and rightly should have been, over Axl’s solo band’s piano and synth mid-tempo Liberace sissy pieces or whatever-the-hell-it’s-called-music.  Or perhaps we should rename it “The music that has everyone in the stadium taking a piss break and grabbing a beer for a few songs each show.”  Even Slash and Duff rewriting key parts in those songs cannot grab fans’ attention.

Where was I?  Slash has retained his own counsel and separate management.  Duff has retained his own counsel and management separate and apart from Slash and Axl.  Axl, meanwhile, is managed by live-ins.  And his finances are managed by in-laws of said live-ins.  These third-world live-ins are, unsurprisingly, wholly unqualified and unprofessional.  The last I checked in on Gn’R world, for instance, the news was that one of his live-ins was raging publicly against AC/DC fans—a band even more iconic than Gn’R.  The employees of this legal entity—Adler’s fourth replacement drummer, Izzy’s whatever-the-number replacement guitarist and the two others adding noise to classic songs—are managed by Axl’s live-ins.  

Why does any of this matter?  And what does it mean?  First, both straight-ahead Gn’R fans and those few, but pouty, fact-denying Axl-apologists have cause to celebrate that Adler is refreshingly honest—he just blurts shit out when asked.  He’s the only one of the five who is still rock n’ roll.  And, of course, the term of the NDA, if one year, would have exhausted, if signed on January 2, 2016 or thereabouts, thereby releasing Adler to say whatever the fuck he pleases as he, given the content of his interviews, gave the S/D/A money machine the finger after not re-upping as a stand-by employee for another year.  Good for him.  Say what you will about him changing his life and living with boundless energy, as if that is somehow suspect, but the man has conviction—he did what very few others would:  stood by and watched his fourth replacement Elephant Man thud through his songs, swallowed his pride, took the stage and showed everyone that he owned the stage, and after one year decided that money and two songs here ‘n there is a fraud to the fans and himself.  I am proud of him.  Sincerely.  It is also, if I were his counsel/management, a tactic of which I would approve and a crafty negotiating maneuver.  It puts the pressure back on S/D/A to trot him out there for ALL his songs.  Remember, he was publicly drumming his truth about S/D/A the very month before Duff approached him with the NDA on January 2, 2016.

Working backwards, it is Duff who approached Steven with the NDA in January ‘16.  Accompanied by his management and/or counsel—“They had me sign a contract thing…”  And from a practice perspective, Adler is omitting that said NDA was reviewed by his management and/or counsel.  But to a drummer who just wants to rock HIS songs, omitting legal nuances is understandable.  It is also Duff who communicated the decision to Adler that he would not have a role in the Troubadour shows.  This is direct evidence that S/D/A p’ship has collective decision-making authority regarding the biz of the entity, weighted or otherwise.  But we already knew that, as I wrote about last spring/summer, after the Opie interview  (“All three of them…”).  The only caveat that I would add, from experience, is that Duff likely has a clause or term in the PA granting him, or assigning to him, the authority or duty to communicate collective business decisions to employees or potential employees.  Sort of the HR guy, if you will.

We likewise know from the “China Exchange” interview other legally significant facts.  For those who want a basis as to what to expect from this business in the near-future, Axl provided a boat-load of info on the creative decision-making of the renegotiated S/D/A p’ship in that interview—ceding to Slash and Duff, but particularly Slash.  Search those threads for a summary as I have no inclination to summarize here.

And, of course, we know that Axl alone has assumed specific division of loss resulting from his quarter century of disrespect towards fans and general assholery the moment we fans put a dollar in his pocket back in ‘87:  not a single no show, notable late start, walk-off or pussy-tantrum at all this (or the AC/DC) tour.  The guy had no epiphany about respect—LiveNation (and its insurers) as well as Slash and Duff’s competent counsel (and AC/DC’s), demanded adult-like, professional behavior of him.  Nothing gets a guy out on stage and his mouth shut on-stage knowing that Slash and Duff walk out of each venue with heavy pockets while he is absorbing and accountable for any losses incurred as a result of his assholery.  Only specific division of loss forces Axl to comply with what rock n’ roll is for everyone else.  What a guy.

If Izzy were to more directly bring the pressure, as Adler has, rather than just telling the minority of fans that S/D/A are a money machine and that Axl is crazy as ever and can’t manage his own life by singing a cover of a song (“Stuck in the Middle with You”) or putting out a song about the money machine (what was it, “F.P. Money?”), then us old-head fans may see something next summer.  Izzy did tweet “Bullshit” to Axl and Duff’s, well, bullshit after their come-out interview with some third-world wanna hump-hump news outlet last fall.  But, again, that is still indirect.

My highlight will be the Cincy show.  Badass.  So happy for the fans!  And for Adler.  And every day that Slash and Duff are up there, Axl is eating his words and intransigence.  While I find no redeeming qualities about Axl as a man, when he bounded up the riser like he was shot out of a cannon to congratulate Adler in Cincy, he, too, showed a little conviction and humility—on top of deep-throating his words about Slash and the original band every night all across the world, there he was, publicly showing respect and adoration for the one guy he relentlessly badmouthed for a quarter-century.

For me, I’m out.  And have been.  But not because of Axl.  Yeah, I know, right?  I sold my tickets last summer because of Slash and Duff, particularly Duff.  Thank you for confirming, Adler, how it went down—as I and others already knew from publicly-available facts and wrote about.  And Izzy confirmed this as well, though less directly.  Buuuut…Slash always has that itch.  And he’s got the creative decision-making authority back, weighted or otherwise, with his band after many years.  And with Adler publicly pestering them with the truth once again, who knows?  One thing we do know:  Adler needs to work on his math as I don’t think South America is 15,000 miles away, but he will never stop speaking the truth about his band, its music and its fans.  And we sure as shit know that S/D/A are playing smaller American venues this time around, and if they try it again with no new music, they’ll be playing Axl’s old stomping grounds in his solo band covering Gn’R music:  high school proms, the random bowling alley, and maybe your very own wedding.