Elvis Costello vs Joe Strummer

[machinegunner]

Who out of Elvis Costello and Joe Strummer wrote the better songs?

Two giants spawned out of the so-called 'punk era', both seriously minded frank songwriters who suffered no fools and lacked no wit... both heroes to some for reasons different and alike... but who wrote the better songs?

Please avoid platitudes like "but at the end of the day it's all subjective"...

Edited May 21, 2013 by machinegunner

[machinegunner]

Oh?

Care to get off his cock and provide examples of his perfect poetic talents which I would assume would naturally extend from his apparent complete perfection?

Costello can run circles around him lyricwise for instance, which would be on the emphasis of the poll -- songwriting and who has written the better songs. Not how much of a mancrush you have on him...

Like, for instance, what was the best love song he ever wrote?

Edited May 21, 2013 by machinegunner

[luciusfunk]

One of the few things I agree on with Len. Definitely Strummer.

[machinegunner]

Are you having a bad afternoon fella? Seriously, whats with the hostility, you asked the fuckin' question here, what do you want, that people don't answer it or something, i'm confused. Relax man. I like different musicians to you, there's no reason we can't be friends man, chill out

Not at all. Your emphatic enthusiasm for Joe is not the subject. respect the topic proposed.

Sincere apologies for my gruffness but do not derail the thread with just idolatric praise for one and insult for the other.

[Guest Len B'stard]

alright mate, i'll delete it for ya and you can carry on your discussion

[machinegunner]

alright mate, i'll delete it for ya and you can carry on your discussion

Aaaawwwwwww..... here's a song Elvis has got JUST for you...

[Guest Len B'stard]

Sulking like having a moody when a post on the internet doesn't meet with your approval you mean? Anyway, i've freed up the room so your discussion can continue, remember now people, no praise!

Edited May 21, 2013 by sugaraylen

[machinegunner]

I want to see what Strummer has got because I don't know...

Like, has he ever written a couplet like:

"Now you've got yourself a brand new occupation
Every fleeting thought is a pearl
And beautiful people stampede to the doorway
Of the funniest fucker in the world"

[Guest Len B'stard]

What do you percieve to be the qualities of that particular piece of verse? So's i don't misunderstand you here.

Edited May 21, 2013 by sugaraylen

[machinegunner]

he wrote this one with Sir Paul

[Guest Len B'stard]

Like i say, what qualities do you percieve there?

[machinegunner]

What do you percieve to be the qualities of that particular piece of verse? So's i don't misunderstand you here.

Poetry. Powerful and effective conveyance of ideas with the skilled use of words.

[Guest Len B'stard]

What do you percieve to be the qualities of that particular piece of verse? So's i don't misunderstand you here.

Poetry. Powerful and effective conveyance of ideas with the skilled use of words.

But what exactly about it, about what its saying and the way it conveys its ideas? The reason i ask is because its interesting to know the sorts of things that speak to a person when engaging in a discussion and attempting to bring quality to their attention.

[machinegunner]

That is why I included the song, so you could see the entire context. Although the subject is obviously still explicitly apparent, if you read the worlds you see that it is killer ownage on some vain deluded person... you see the meaning is quite literal, but as delievered in song there's so much more. I could have picked countless evocative couplets or verses by Costello.

So, as I stated, I'm looking for choice exmples of Strummer's poetic genius that I have occassionally heard people allude to in their extreme praise of him as a virtual saint street poet, 'poet for the people' and so on... show me examples of his poetic skills in getting his points and messages across eloquently... that's partly why I made the thread.

[Guest Len B'stard]

I dunno if you've ever heard The Clash song Straight to Hell but its basically about American GI's who screwed Vietnamese women but then left after the war and left these kids who were kinda ostracised from their society based on being half American, have a listen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ3N1zfxTGQ

'Lemme tell ya bout ya blood Bamboo Kid, it ain't Coca Cola, it's rice' in the context of the song i think is a wonderful wonderful line and almost...encapsulating the entire song in a few words in a very direct and quite poetic way. But check out the song, tell me what you think

[machinegunner]

Anyway, I've gotta go...I'll leave you with one more Costello recording, a remix by Tricky :

I dunno if you've ever heard The Clash song Straight to Hell but its basically about American GI's who screwed Vietnamese women but then left after the war and left these kids who were kinda ostracised from their society based on being half American, have a listen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ3N1zfxTGQ

'Lemme tell ya bout ya blood Bamboo Kid, it ain't Coca Cola, it's rice' in the context of the song i think is a wonderful wonderful line and almost...encapsulating the entire song in a few words in a very direct and quite poetic way. But check out the song, tell me what you think

Will comment on that and any others later...

Edited May 21, 2013 by machinegunner

[machinegunner]

I quite like that, captures an apocalyptic sense of despair... the futility of war... it's a bit like a "yeah, that's the bad way things are" overly simplistic essay i would write at school when I was 16.

[Guest Len B'stard]

My issue with Elvis Costello is (and please dont take this bad, i ain't having a go at you or anything, just my opinion on a musician who i'm sure isn't related to either of us!) his lyrics are good written down but they're, in my expierience, rarely about anything very interesting and also, his voice, although i realise your thing was about songwriting itself, that sort of cod-American accent and radio friendly new wave thing, it's just very atypical, there's nothing acute enough in it to make it stand out to me?

Also, approaching certain artists, The Clash are probably the worst example of this too because their lyrics are pretty poetic in the more typical sense, but yeah the problem with approaching certain artists with a view to assessing their songwriting in terms of seeking something poetic in it, in the typical sense, is that certain artists are very direct in their lyrics so it doesn't have that same poetic profoundness that things like, say Across the Universe by The Beatles or even the aforementioned couplet, which was very good by the way, just in a written down sense.

Another example of Joe Strummer writing beautiful lyrics:

Tonight they're closing up the world

N' sweeping smoke from cigarettes

And what is that funky multi-national

Anthem rocking from a thousand

King Kong cassette decks

Then a shyboy from Missouri

Boots blown off in a '60s war

Riding aluminium crutches

Now he knows the welfare kindness n'

Agent Orange color blindness

As we works from door to door

The violence in the carpets

The mirror of his wife (In a car jam)

Drives the slum-bum dweller

To grind his hunting knife (In a car jam)

In homesteads of cigar box-radios

Hive like bees (In a car jam)

The body in the ice

Box has no date for freeeeeze (In a car jam)

[Chorus]

In a car jam

Selling is what selling sells

But only saints of the 7 avenues can sell

The 7 hells

Fanning the drug afflicted leperizing acne

Once inside the executive

He never leaves his home

Gorillas drag their victiims

Hyenas try to sue (In a car jam)

Snakes find grass in concrete

There is no city zoo by (In a car jam)

Ventilation units where towers

Meet the streets (In a car jam)

The ragged stand in bags

Soaking heat up through their feet (In a car jam)

This was the only kindness

And it was accidental too

[Chorus]

In a car jam

In a car jam

Now shaking single engined planes

Traffik-king stereos from Cuba

Buzzed the holy zealot mass

And drowned out Missa Luba

And drowned out Missa Luba

And drowned out Missa Luba

And drowned out Missa Luba

I thought I saw Lauren Bacall

I thought I saw Lauren Bacall (in a car jam)

I swear

Hey fellas

Lauren Bacall (in a car jam)

In a car jam

Yeah I don't believe it

In a car jam

Ah yeah positively absolutely

Beautiful in the sense that they are very evocative, they paint a really singular picture. You can tell that he was untrained in that he sort of skips from subject to subject but it all ties together quite well i think.

One thing i will say though, as far as rockstars and poetry, none of em can write to save their fuckin' lives, poetry-wise i mean Their songs work in a musical contest and as rock lyrics but, y'know, even the best of the best lyricists, your Morrisons (Jim) or your Dylans or people like Morrissey couldn't really stand up as poets or masters of the written, i mean to compare them to Yeats or something, it's ridiculous.

Lennon i think, as a writer, was brilliant because he was very singular. Quite honestly, any of the rock brigade and their illusions regarding being poets, it's all a bit of a cocksuck really.

[izzygirl]

Elvis.

[machinegunner]

My issue with Elvis Costello is (and please dont take this bad, i ain't having a go at you or anything, just my opinion on a musician who i'm sure isn't related to either of us!) his lyrics are good written down but they're, in my expierience, rarely about anything very interesting and also, his voice, although i realise your thing was about songwriting itself, that sort of cod-American accent and radio friendly new wave thing, it's just very atypical, there's nothing acute enough in it to make it stand out to me?

I understand, but I disagree...

His subject matter and voice are far more varied than his initial new wave pop fame would suggest. And I think he is as idisynchratic and singular songwriter as you can get, his phrasing and delivery is very uniquely his. He goes from almost throwaway pop to deadly serious, and often in the same song.

Shipbuilding - This was about ships being built for the Falklands War... a protest song of sorts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuPrrdRzlxc

Also, approaching certain artists, The Clash are probably the worst example of this too because their lyrics are pretty poetic in the more typical sense, but yeah the problem with approaching certain artists with a view to assessing their songwriting in terms of seeking something poetic in it, in the typical sense, is that certain artists are very direct in their lyrics so it doesn't have that same poetic profoundness that things like, say Across the Universe by The Beatles or even the aforementioned couplet, which was very good by the way, just in a written down sense.

Check this out for directness, Costello's song to Margaret Thatcher