November_rain

Nov-Rain......you are right, in a sense. It isn't my job to forgive Axl for things he does in his personal life. But, I also don't have to praise what he does or accept what he does, simply because he is a singer in a band. What he does in his personal life has no effect on me. I love the guy's music. But from all I've read and seen over the last 25 years, he seems like a really troubled person in real life. And as far as him beating up women - I view him the same way I view ALL men who beat up women. He doesn't get a pass simple because he is a famous rock singer. If you found out your mother or your sister or your best friend was beaten up by their husband, how would you feel about him? Would you say "Oh, none of my business. Not my place to judge." Or would you have disgust and contempt for him?

Your anger should be with the person who made this topic, not with people who are simply responding to it. Nobody is saying that it is our position to forgive him. Most of us view him as a rock singer, we don't have some personal attachment to him and feel we have to defend and justify him, or that he is bigger/better or more important than the average person.

Greatest rock singer of my generation. But my world and opinions don't revolve around him or what he does.

Nobody is saying that you have to praise and accept what he does. I just couldn´t help answering to people who feel entitled to "forgive" Axl for something related to his personal life, that is ridiculous and you can´t deny that. By having that opinion doesn´t mean that I support of justify everything he says or does. I admire him as a singer and what he does in his personal life does not affect me and is not my business. Also, nobody is saying that you have to give him a pass with regards to the domestic violence matter just because he is a famous singer. As I´ve said many times, that is wrong and has no justification at all and I don´t understand why you act as if I was in the "they deserved it" club because I am not, not at all. And just fyi, one of my best friends used to be beaten by her ex and I helped her to open the eyes and leave the hell she was living in with that guy so, next time you decide to judge someone because of a few posts in an internet forum you should think twice. You are very, very wrong in your assumptions about me.

You make me laugh with your absurd allusions that I have anger issues because of what I post in an internet forum

Congrats on the baby, I suppose.

Weren't there rumors awhile back where Venessa was pregnant and people thought Axl was the father?

LOL people invent all kinds of shit.

Anyways, cograts to Vanessa

As long as they pay the rent and behave civil who cares?.

The vocal cord nodules and the polyps are pretty common in singers, teachers and people whose work tool is the voice. I have no idea if Axl suffered this or not or if he had surgery. No idea but man, the " hole in the neck" theory is fucking hilarious .

I saw this on GNR´s facebook. I´m very happy they play Buenos Aires since I have two good friends there who will be there and are very happy right now. Last time GNR played there they missed it.

The domestic violence.

People keep bringing this out all the time. And there´s no doubt that was fucking wrong and that it has no justification at all but you guys act as if he had beaten you instead. This beating/violent stuff is not our business, this is between Axl and the women involved and they should be the ones who have the right to forgive him or not, not you. Axl might be your favourite singer or not, he might have done shit wrong or right but at the end of the day he is just a stranger, someone you don´t know and to think that you have to forgive him for something is ridiculous.

It may not be our personal business - and you're right that the forgiveness, or not, lies with the women who were victims, not the bystanders.

However...having said that, for me personally, I've seen numerous people who have had their lives ruined by DV. And that, and rape/molestation, are the two things that will always make me think far less of a person, no matter what else they do. That's really how I was reading the OP's question, "what has he done that makes you lose respect for him/what has he done that you cannot forget or overlook."

Well, I understood the question was adressed in a GNR-related sense, not regarding Axl as an individual involving facts of his personal life.

The domestic violence.

People keep bringing this out all the time. And there´s no doubt that was fucking wrong and that it has no justification at all but you guys act as if he had beaten you instead. This beating/violent stuff is not our business, this is between Axl and the women involved and they should be the ones who have the right to forgive him or not, not you. Axl might be your favourite singer or not, he might have done shit wrong or right but at the end of the day he is just a stranger, someone you don´t know and to think that you have to forgive him for something is ridiculous.

It may not be our personal business - and you're right that the forgiveness, or not, lies with the women who were victims, not the bystanders.

However...having said that, for me personally, I've seen numerous people who have had their lives ruined by DV. And that, and rape/molestation, are the two things that will always make me think far less of a person, no matter what else they do. That's really how I was reading the OP's question, "what has he done that makes you lose respect for him/what has he done that you cannot forget or overlook."

Great post.

I don't know anybody who was killed in the 9/11 attacks.........I don't know anybody that Jeffrey Dahmer killed and ate..............I don't know anybody that Ted Bundy raped and murdered.............some rock singer just got arrested on child porn charges, I don't know him or any of the children that he molested...................does that mean I'm not allowed to comment on what they did, or think that what they did is wrong?

Are all the people in here defending Axl or saying that we have no right to comment on what he did - because we don't know him - following their own demands that they are saying the rest of us should do? I'd be willing to be money that you aren't following your own advice. I could be wrong though and maybe you guys aren't complete hypocrites. Maybe you have NEVER made a comment about a celebrity's actions that you disagreed with.

Oh dear, is my English that bad? Really?. I´ve re-read my post and nowhere in it does it say that you can´t comment on what Axl did and I didn´t tell anyone what they should do either. All I said is that you people are not the ones who have the right to forgive Axl for what he did, that is something that belongs to the women involved. You don´t even know the guy and some of you feel you have to forgive him for something regarding his personal life? Are you serious?.

The domestic violence.

People keep bringing this out all the time. And there´s no doubt that was fucking wrong and that it has no justification at all but you guys act as if he had beaten you instead. This beating/violent stuff is not our business, this is between Axl and the women involved and they should be the ones who have the right to forgive him or not, not you. Axl might be your favourite singer or not, he might have done shit wrong or right but at the end of the day he is just a stranger, someone you don´t know and to think that you have to forgive him for something is ridiculous.

Machiavellian? LOL Sorry Diesel, I don´t mean to be rude or anything but I can´t help laughing when someone uses that word to describe Axl.I think the band was mortal wounded towards the end of the UYI days and the break-up would have happened sooner or later. The guys wanted different things and lead to different musical directions so I don´t think Axl was such a bad guy. He was just smarter and reacted quicker than the other guys, he was taking care of his interests.

LOL some people have too much time on their hands.

Taking the name does an enormous discredit to the original band members, something I would find it hard to forgive him for.

I don´t see it that way. He is one of the founders of the band and he´s been there since day one and he saw the band was like a boat that was about to sink so he did what he thought it was best.

Perhaps Spain's tired of all the immigrants, British Ex-Pats included, and they're all like

'Shit, where's the Spanish Spanish people?'

So this probably has NOTHING to do with morals, but maybe politically motivated for population control and the would be future voters?..

Population control? Immigrants?LOL

@Izzygirl: I see what you mean and I agree with some of your points but if this law is passed the least of the problems will be whether the father has any say in the matter or not. Imagine how unfair it is going to be with cases of severe illnesses or deformities.

I have a relative who years ago gave birth to a child with severe deformities like a shorter arm, he was deaf, blind and had severe brain damage. It was a wanted baby and very expected but he died three days after the birth, imagine the pain and how much the parents suffered. The mom said that had she known all this sooner she would have had an abortion because even though the pain is there, she thought it was worse to have his son inside her for 9 months and love him, to give birth, to carry the baby in her arms and later see him die.

Since I´m jobless right now and I can´t afford buying any new books right now, I´m re-reading some of my old ones. I´ve recently read Shakespeare´s Romeo & Juliet and Hamlet in English since I can´t find any decent translations in Spanish; Another one I´ve read is Catcher in the rye ( in English too) and now I´m re-reading La Reina del Sur ( Queen of the South) by Spanish writer Arturo Pérez-Reverte. If you haven´t read anything by this author go check his work, he´s an amazing writer.

Congrats dude. There aren´t too many "oldies" from that era that are still lurking or posting.

I used to read the forum a lot during 2002 but I didn´t register until 2003. I´ve had good and bad times here, I´ve met old kinds of people and some even got to be friends in real life.

The first person who ever sent me a pm was a girl named Prettytiedup or something like that. I remember some of the veterans like Leigh-rock , Jack99, Charles Manson, Username, UK Subs... to name a few. A lot of people have come and gone including myself lol.

Happy New Year fellow Gunners!!!

Are you serious? Do you really think women use abortions as a form of birth control?.

Uhm....yes....many women do use abortion as a form of birth control. I've lived through and seen it first hand. I grew up witnessing several "friends" of mine that were on their 2nd and 3rd abortions by the time they were 21.

What would you call that?

Well, that is your experience but it doesn´t mean that this is the general way to do things. I don´t know if this is the case with the people you mention but if they are irresponsible and use abortion as a birth control it doesn´t mean that all women do it too and it doesn´t mean that all women are irresponsible either. As I´ve said before, that decision is very difficult and each woman has different reasons and circumstances to go one direction or another.

Well...

Since Spain are being arseholes about Gibraltar, serves them right that they've been dragged back 30 years, if things got any worse at the border, I'd say Franco was back.

LOL what does Gibraltar have to do with abortions?. And let´s not start with that ... the Brits are not sisters of mercy either.

Question :

(especially for Kasanova King and Shades)

"If abortion is made illegal, what should be the penalty for women who get illegal abortions?"

1) jailtime - specify amount of time and crime (murder?)

2) fine

3) sterilization

4) two of the above

5) none of the above

6) other

That's that's gotta be the most "baited" question I've seen around here in months.

Should they be made completely illegal? Probably not. Like others have said, if a woman really wants one....she'll find a way to get one done. So making them completely illegal doesn't make much sense to me.

Didn't you already say you'd vote again a woman's right to choose?

Where have you left her but to commit an illegal act?

That's a logical conclusion that a crime would be committed.

So how would you prosecute it?

Now THIS is a baited question:

You enter a burning building you only have time to grab either

1) ten embryos

2) one 7 year old

Which do you save?

Now tell me if there are 10 babies and 1 seven year old?!!!!

(I found that question on-line and there are more if you like)

Actually, I never stated I would vote to make abortions illegal. I stated that I was personally pro life and I didn't think women should use abortions as a form of birth control. Making abortion illegal isn't the solution, imo.

Are you serious? Do you really think women use abortions as a form of birth control?. No offense but this sounds exactly as what the radicals in Spain say. They speak as if having an abortion was like spitting m&ms. There are ways to avoid getting pregnant and just because a small amount of people are irresponsible ( teenagers...etc) doesn´t mean that the government has the right to impose this prohibition to all the women. There are different reasons and circumstances that lead women to interrupt their pregnancies like deformities and severe illnesses, lack of means to support the child...etc.

Having an abortion is not an easy decision and as Angelica and others have stated, it might have health risks and it also has psychological consequences for a lot of women.

Religious beliefs aside, this law is a violation of women´s idividual rights. Who are others to impose what a woman has to do with her body?. What do they know of each woman´s life, feelilngs, circumstances or health?.

It's actually a bit immoral just to waste good money like that, that could be put to use to help save lives... But hey it's his (hard) earned money and Axl probably doesn't give a f@ck about anything these days.

I´ve read that he helps a lot of people and charity privately. But I agree that apartment stuff was a waste of money

Equating abortion and unprotected sex resulting in an unwanted pregnancy with prohibition tells me there's really no reason to engage you in any type of reality based conversation.

I'm on the side of "choice", but also on the side that abortion is wrong.

So I am more than comfortable with my views in the spirit of humanity AND minding my own business in regard to the subject.

With the very rare exception of rape there is no responsible reason to play around with a life by having unprotected sex in the world we live in today.

There's numerous, safe ways of assuring your "accident" doesn't happen.

Assuming you have enough respect for yourself that you are having sex with someone you at least can have a civil conversation with afterwards if the two of you have "accidentally" created a life,

consider giving it to someone after term that would love to care for and love the child as you do not wish to.

And would only add sorry for the friggin inconvenence your error in judgement caused.

And

maybe if it wasn't as easy as going in to have a tattoo removed people may just take more precautions.

Well said. I think many "moderate" pro-choice advocates and maybe some "moderate" pro-life advocates would have a difficult time disagreeing with any of this.

Therein lies another problem. The conservatives don´t want any sexual education programs and they treat those who support them as if they were prostitutes. It´s true that there are many ways to prevent pregnancy but those methods are not 100% reliable and in some cases they fail. When the Socialist party approved the choice law the right wing party claimed against it and acted as if women were going to abort massively. Guess what? The number of abortions decreased.

I can´t believe that in 2013 ( almost 2014) my country is going back in time and the debate is again taking place. IMO, I think I would have the baby but I support the right to choose. I think that a woman in that position suffers and it´s not an easy decision when they have to choose whether they want to have the baby or not.

But what makes it more ridiculous is the government´s hypocrisy. They want women to have disabled kids yet they have cut drastically all the financial help disabled people received. They don´t care of disabled kids, they don´t care of their therapies, wheel chairs, expensive medical treatments...

back in 2011, everybody knew that if rajoy won there was going to be a new abortion law because it was part of the electoral program, so we can only blame the people who voted for that party.

So true, unfortunately .

Also, I find it pretty ironic that the Popular Party (right wing) and the pro-lifers worry so much about protecting the rights of those kids that aren´t born yet and they don´t give a shit about the fact that 26% of Spanish children live in poverty conditions because of the economical crisis and they do nothing to help them.

What I see happening out of this - false accusations of rape, and suicides because a 12 year old girl has no way of dealing with what to do at her age and doesn't want anyone to know.

I respect everyone's choice on what they would do for themselves, but the government should have the option to have abortions available to girls and women regardless of age, and just make it easier for couples to adopt.

Some of the members of Spanish government are religious radical people and they support the Church to put their noses in Politics and Educatioin like they used to do 30 years ago. The church is behind this decision with the consent of a big part of the members of the party in the government. By their logic, abortion is a no-no so they don´t care whether the girl is 12 or whether the fetus suffers some disease or deformation.

@Kasanova: your opinions are as welcome as anyone else´s. That´s what a forum is for

Nice find. I had heard about this docu but I never had the chance to watch it.

..." i ain't having that on my fuckin' conscience."

That's what so many radically "pro-choice" advocates lack. The fact that a statement comes from a person who is nonreligious and pro-choice shows the difference of someone with logic vs. the extreme other side...the pro-choicers that could care less about the consciences or psychological ramifications, that women endure after having an abortion. They never worry about what happens to a woman's mind...they only care about a woman's "right" in regards to her body.

What good is a body without a mind?

I don't get this, you're making it sound as though 'radical' pro-choice people want to force women to get abortions. No one wants a woman/girl to get an abortion, they just want the option to be there if it's what the pregnant female wants done. I'd say the people that don't care about a woman/girl's mind are the 'pro-lifers' (aka anti-choice) that would happily force someone through 9 months of stress and pain, just because it makes them happy.

Agree. That is the difference. The pro-choice people want women to be allowed to choose while the pro-lifers want to impose their stand on the others.

Just a curious note: with the former choice law the number of abortions in Spain decreased.

I like both songs but if I have to choose I go for Jungle, that song is like a rock hymn and is part of one of the best rock albums ever made.

Yes, that's the one. I thought Axl looked very good, although bored. You have to see the video to really understand just how Goddam bored he must have been...

I think he looked very cool in these photos. That is a typical Axl pose in the second screenshot

I remember this video. I don´t think he looks bored, imo it looked more like he didn´t feel very confortable being recorded.

I'd rather let the woman in question make that decision. Choices have consequences, it is their call, not some government or religious do-gooder.

Exactly!!. The current government is full of radical right people who at the same time are members of the Opus Dei (a religious radical sect/organization inside the Church) or are very religious and feel with the right to impose their views on others. They hide under the excuse of defending the lives of the "no born" and to protect the rights of women when the truth is that they have eliminated our right to choose.

They only allow abortion in case of rape or in case of psichological damage that has to be certified by doctors, and again, these doctors decide for the women not the women themselves.

At the end of the day this is an act of hypocrisy. They don´t care of each individual´s circumstances because taking that decision (abortion) is not easy and they talk as if women wanted to get rid of their babies at all cost and that´s not true. They don´t care of the consequences, they only care of imposing their beliefs and their views at all cost.

The govenrment want to force women to have all sorts of retarded kids, disabled kids and kids with all kinds of illnesses and deformities and at the same time they are cutting the finacial help and medical care these people and their families need. AND they are causing social economical distinctions because those who have money will be able to travel to London or Lisbon to have an abortion while the ones who can´t afford it will have to abort undercover and will put their lives in danger.

And ironically, those who strongly support the current government and their restrictions are the ones who send their wives and daughters to London "to learn English" and then the next Sunday they go to Church and dare bash other´s morals or lack of it.

I can´t believe that in 2013 ( almost 2014) my country is going back in time and the debate is again taking place. IMO, I think I would have the baby but I support the right to choose. I think that a woman in that position suffers and it´s not an easy decision when they have to choose whether they want to have the baby or not.

But what makes it more ridiculous is the government´s hypocrisy. They want women to have disabled kids yet they have cut drastically all the financial help disabled people received. They don´t care of disabled kids, they don´t care of their therapies, wheel chairs, expensive medical treatments...etc.