appetite4illusions

The whole movie moves pretty briskly - up until the point where Hoffa is whacked, then it slows to a crawl. It's like the film has two paces and once it goes into funeral mode, you're kind of just waiting for it to wrap itself up.

Overall it was great. Some characters didn't completely work for me and the de-aging stuff was mostly a bag of air - I couldn't tell that these guys were supposed to be young. It was very marginal in its success.

As far as the historical perspective - I kind of prefer Jack Nicholson's portrayal of Jimmy Hoffa in Danny Devito's 1992 movie about the man. Al Pacino was good but he didn't deviate from the Al Pacino persona - I feel that as much as Nicholson like's to lean into his own persona, he did Hoffa much more convincingly.  

Queen & Slim is definitely one of my favorites this year. Strongly written and strongly directed. Was as enjoyable as Ford v Ferarri. 

Some of the stuff that has come out of the discussion of this film has been far more interesting than the actual movie of Dark Fate.

I've been kind of obsessed with charting where and how this film went so terribly wrong - it's quite a public embarrassment for a number of people.

One of the things that's been so fascinating to me is to hear what James Cameron fought for and wanted - because he is the crucial ingredient in all this. I watched this video this morning and I'm pretty stunned: The director talks about how Cameron was so into Arnold's character that he began writing things that were beyond absurd

- Exhibit number one: James Cameron was adamant that the audience understand that Arnold's character - as a perfect cyborg - has working DNA and can impregnate a woman. Thus, producing a son, which the character of the T-800 has. 

Watch

Can. you. imagine....

Cameron went crazy on this film. He got so wrapped up in "new" concepts that he totally dropped the ball on telling a worthwhile Terminator film. The little anecdote about having to fight over whether Arnold's robot cock can fire live ammunition...my goodness. It's too good not to meme

Y'all should skip Terminator and go see Doctor Sleep when it comes out on Friday.

I happened to catch an advanced screening of it the night before Halloween and I left the theater very pleased. As far as sequels go, there's no question in my mind that Doctor Sleep is much stronger than Terminator.

Are they making new music?

The last time they reunited, they got on their high-horse about not doing that, which is a real eye-roller. 

There's a real futility to it.

It looks like a duck and quacks like one...but after they essentially nullify the first two films, you find yourself wrapped up in the action and ask, "Am I really supposed to care about the ramifications of this action scene? Of the future-war? They just flushed everything cool down the drain."

If you sue someone criminally, the prosecution has the burden of proving intent and, proving it beyond a reasonable doubt.

As a standard of proof, that would be like a 90-95% certainty - kinda steep.

But civilly, the standard of proof is “preponderance of the evidence.” That means, more likely than not likely. That would be anything over 51%. So, it is fairly easy to win in tort cases where someone has done you wrong...however...

In civil cases, you can only sue people for money and if the person you’re suing doesn’t have any...well...as the old saying goes, “you can’t draw blood from a stone.”

Maybe I'm dense or society has moved on from my intellect, but how do you stop somebody from attending shows?

You just buy a ticket and disappear into the mass of people.

Is this a real "ban" or just a demerit? How would you enforce it?

10 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

No offence, but that reads like a pretentious movie review from someone who was thinking more about what to write, than what they saw.

I was an English major, so you’ll forgive me if I use my useless degree on the internet.

But no man, it’s not coming from a pretentious place. Go back and read what I’ve said earlier in the thread- long before I saw the film or knew of any controversy surrounding it.

My point is telling a a Joker origin is a self-defeating premise. No origin will do for me, particularly one where he’s an average Joe.

I just never expected the character to be such a pathetic worm. I don’t see the Joker that way and if you do, I question how you can call him the most successful criminal diva.

I saw a decent movie about a loser who gets away from his crimes because the script gives him an emergency exit whenever necessary. That’s fine for what it is, but when you’re telling a story about (capital letters) JOKER and your character is as minor and hapless as the lower case, it really should be called “Arthur.”

Just wasn’t Joker for me man, sorry if that’s not what you want to hear.

22 hours ago, soon said:

To my ears theres some classic era Guns with that happening too? Like Dont Damn Me? Or the Chorus of Garden of Eden? Night Train? I think theres more that are escaping me.

I sometimes wonder if the musicians offer Axl riffs that can be doubled on vocals because it takes him so long to come up with vocals (but thats just a musing that I cant support obviously).

You’re right, there are a number of OG GN’R songs where Axl leans on the guitar riff for his melody, but I can’t think of one of the stalwart classics where that’s the case.

I’ve said it before, but the crucial ingredient to a timeless GN’R song is that it is anthemic. This usually means having a big chorus and to have a big chorus...less is more. You mentioned Nighttrain and while Axl settles into the groove of the riff on the verses, he does his own thing on the chorus and it’s the kind of minimalistic thing that works so well:

”I’m on the Nighttrain!...Nighttrain!...Nighttrain!....Never to return!”

It breathes, nice and easy and it has the space and power for everyone to chant it like a prayer.

Now you’ve got:

”But you had to be a fool and do it your way had to be a fool and throw it all away to a school you thought you were here to stay if that were true it wouldn’t matter anyway!!!”

Not the same thing, at all. It doesn’t breathe one bit. It’s delivered like a rant - which is I’m sure how Axl approached quite a bit of songwriting. It reeks of someone with too much to say and unsure how to say it. Kind of like a high school kid who writes his whole English lit paper as one run-on.

Add to that, it is doing the same exact thing as the guitar riff, it comes off as desperate and a little redundant.

I’m not saying Axl should adopt a Motley Crue style of pop choruses, but he needs to realize that in the craft of songwriting, people want something they can participate to when they hear it live. 

Hard School brings back the idea of rocking out - which is sorely, sorely missing from Chinese, but to me, it doesn’t have an element of timeless songwriting on it.

If Axl is going to swing for the fences, he needs to get back in touch with a simpler approach. If the World was one of my favorite songs on CD, because of its simplicity.

22 hours ago, GnR Chris said:

Don't bro me, bro.

Hey you started it. I only have one bro and he doesn’t even call me.

I just hear a jersey shore character when people try to reason to me by starting with that word.

I’ve seen so many people say this is a “love it or hate it film,” but I disagree.

I don’t love it and I don’t hate it, but its exercise in trying to give the Joker a proper backstory...just doesn’t quite do it...because even at the very end of the movie...I don’t feel like this is the Joker.

Joker is a force so fierce, that he’s like a part of nature...Joaquin Phoenix’s Joker is the equivalent if the lucky loser. He commits random acts of violence and then gets away with it because there’s already so many fires to put out.

This film really, should have been called “Arthur,” because it’s so much more appropriate. It’s not about the clown prince, it’s about a sad, delusional man that is almost completely hapless.

Again, great acting work but not Joker to me, because I never saw Joker as such a pathetic, pathetic creature. There’s a real confidence to the Joker that Arthur will never have. 

It’s no clown prince - it’s clown punk.

Out of all the shit that has leaked - as far as rock and roll goes - Oklahoma and Quick Song have the most promise as riffs.

I can't say much more than that. Those two were the only ones I felt were very worthy that remained undeveloped - particularly Oklahoma.

3 hours ago, GnR Chris said:

Bro ... so much no in all of this. "Hardschool" slaps hard as fuck. It's OK if you don't like it. I love it. And these weren't B-sides from Chinese Democracy. These songs were kept off as part of a planned trilogy of releases. The 2006 leaks, IMO, dictated some of the final track list of Chinese Democracy. We don't even know yet if "Hardschool" was one of the last songs what was left of the Illusions lineup worked up in the middle '90s.

 

Edit: And to the comment that "Hard school" needs more rasp, I disagree. I actually really, really like the voice Axl sings with in the verses. It sounds different and then the chorus comes in and BOOOOOM, vintage AXL FUCKIN' ROSE!!!!!!

You know what makes for a really boring song (to me)?

When a singer sings right on top of the guitar riff and never changes the melody. So the singer, is basically copying the guitar riff, verbatim. 

That doesn't make for a dynamic song and GN'R have always been dynamics....bro...

Yeah, they always had a very contentious relationship and were very different people, but by all accounts, the experience of making Metallica's And Justice For All... album was the last straw.

It's funny, And Justice For All... is very much its own story, but it's interesting that Metallica chose to use Mike Clink AND Thompson and Barbiero for that album. Obviously, Lars was very infatuated with GN'R and how great AFD sounded so he went ahead and got that whole team to make their next album...and not only is the album notorious for how poor it sounds, it broke up the relationship of the two guys who were the lightening-in-the-bottle for GN'R

I don't think it's the production of UYI, I think it's the fact that Steve Thompson and Mike Barbiero blew up and didn't get to work their magic, a second time.

Those two guys were the real unsung heroes of AFD and I can only imagine how much more dynamic UYI would have been if it was mixed by them.

None of those songs

Lord, they were left off of Chinese Democracy, why would any of them be able to cross into the mainstream?

Hard School is the best of a poor bunch of rock songs Axl assembled. You could release that but I’m very sure you would have a situation where it’s quickly forgotten. 

It might get you guys excited but I think it’s more the idea of Axl rocking out...because the song isn’t exceptionally good. I would rate even some of the more disposable stuff on UYI as superior; Bad Apples and Garden of Eden, for example.

If Axl wants a truly successful first single, he should go back to the drawing board. These songs were written a time when the Real Slim Shady needed to please, stand up.

The thing about the ballads is...they were always the other side of the coin.

People appreciated November Rain and Estranged because it was a contrast from the real catchy, adrenaline driven songs that GN'R catered to.

But take away the fist-pumping, blood rushing rock and just leave the ballads...that turns off a fair amount of the fanbase. You've now diminished a part of what made Guns N' Roses so successful in the first place. 

GNR are only as strong as the rockers - because they are and always will be a, a rock oriented band. So, if all your serving for rock is Chinese, IRS and Hard School....it doesn't matter too much how good those ballads are...

I knew Axl had taken his eye off the ball once I heard a majority of the material and determined none of it could compete with a song like "Slither."

Contraband as an album is good, while Chinese Democracy is great...but CD just didn't have that one song to put it over the top. It's too bad, because with all that time, talent and passion, they should have been able to smoke "Slither."

"Every time we thought we had the right sequence of songs, somebody else thought we could do better." - Axl (2008?)

Whether it was Bob Ezrin, Jimmy Iovine or Tom Zutaut, it seems the major reservation wasn't if the current songs were up to par in production - but whether any of them had the potential to be successful singles. 

I think there was proper doubt that Axl ever had the right "single." A song with undoubted tremendous commercial appeal. Listen to the 2000 Intentions leaks...which one of those would you stake your house on would be a "hit"?

Good songs, but none of them scream "money in the bank - release me now and watch me climb the charts!"

I think the major hope that the label and the producers held out for is that if they thew the band back in the studio and never took them out, then one of those days, the band would write a song that had such massive commercial appeal that they could throw the whole weight of the project behind it. That never really happened, as far as we've heard and the best and most commerical song they got out of the process was "Better," which didn't really have any legs.

Do you guys remember the Classic Rock interview Zutaut gave in 2007? In the closing moments of the article, Zutaut says "It's a great Guns N' Roses album, but is there a single on it? You can't do the big business without a hit single."

All that time, everyone seemed to doubt that Axl had a song which would unquestionably, bring him back from the rock and roll crypt.

The film is taking shade-  it's losing some of that "must-see" luster that the studio threw into marketing mode, a couple weeks ago.

The rotten tomatoes score is going down and controversy is catching on. Seems like the eight minute standing ovation was something of a fluke.

I think the film will do fair business, but its interesting to see something get lots of hype in one moment and then chill off a moment later...all before the product even hits the market.

As far as Bob Ezrin goes, as far as anybody's opinion about Chinese Democracy and why there was never any "single material" on the album, despite having quality songs, need look no further than Axl.

Look at the songs on Chinese and now the wealth of material we have on our hands.

Why couldn't the guy just write a conventional song with a conventional chorus?

Almost all these songs have non-choruses, they have too many words, Axl has too much to say.

The key to crafting a great song is: keep it relatively simple. Catchy chorus goes a long way. The type of chorus that really suits a song has a few words with key words stretched to emphasis the music. 

The type of choruses  GN'R, classic GN'R were known for were Anthemic. They were chants, they were sing-alongs, they carried themselves with the song. You looked FORWARD to the chorus.

Look at the chorus section or lack of, on many of these songs. Are there any that could be called "Anthemic?" In my opinion, only "Chinese Democracy" has a great chorus and an anthemic chorus, at that.

Look at songs like TWAT, Atlas Shrugged, Prostitute, Shackler's Revenge, etc...They might be cool, but there is no chorus for anybody to hang their hat on. There's hardly any more anthemic material on the album, other than the title track.

He got so deep in the weeds, trying to express himself, be creative and make a challenging album, that he withheld a key component to making hit songs: didn't make them catchy enough.

Ad Astra was a lot better than I expected. 

I was dreading another space movie about isolation but thankfully, its very plot-driven in addition to being poignant. 

That's not to say there weren't some moments of science-fiction...Brad Pitt space surfs on a piece of metal through the rings of Neptune to get back to his stranded ship. If your eyebrows went up after reading that sentence, remember this film is probably going to get a fair amount of Oscar buzz.

5 minutes ago, WillBailey said:

Great stuff! That album would have been great in 2000/2001.

Still dont get Atlas though. I somehow expected an epic track i dont know why, and this is...ok. I do love Perhaps.

Atlas is a poorly crafted song. It has too many words in it - it seems like Axl just never stops singing to let the music be.

You can tell and it's awkward because as the chords change from the verse to the pre-chorus, Axl just keeps on singing and it seems like he gets lost in the song from time to time or the song loses him.