shotgunblues1978

They still made 15 mil from rest of world? and if they sell 3 mil of CD II..

I dont see what the problem was in 2002. there was some sort of element of doubt.

Tom Zutaut said "It’s a great GN’R record, but is there a hit single? Because without the hit, you can’t sell 20 million.”

I think that was the label's main issue. Also, it's not certain whether or not Better existed in a completed form in 2002. It seems like that was one of the later songs written and was the most commercially viable song. I'm guessing the label thought they'd rather wait for the band to write a song they thought was a "hit" which they probably thought would only delay the release a matter of months rather than years.

Impossible to say exactly how much it sells in 2002, but it's a pretty safe bet it would've sold 6-7 million worldwide with a standard wide release in the US, just based on the relative state of the industry and decline in record sales from 2002 to 2008. People on here like to mock CD's sales and call it a massive flop, but it was the #14 selling record worldwide in 2008 and it was only out for 5 weeks.

Don't get me wrong, the Best Buy deal was a great thing for the fans and for the label, since it made CD a viable commercial release in a declining industry. That deal guaranteed that the label would turn a profit rolling out the album. But there's also no question that it reduced the gross sales in the US simply by limiting the physical availability of the record.

CD sold 3+ million worldwide in 2008. Record sales (in terms of units sold) in 2008 were 47% of what they were in 2002. So relatively speaking, in terms of the state of the music industry, CD's sales in 2008 were the equivalent selling 6+ million records worldwide in 2002.

He should have pissed on the contract and gave it back

Slash wouldn't have had the guts to do that. It's more his style to do what he did: sign the contract and then pout about it and whine about Axl to anyone who would listen (including the press), all while failing to confront Axl and call him out face to face.

There was certainly a faction of people who weren't going to give him a chance no matter what he did

Just my opinion but I think people would've been a lot more accepting of thing if he'd released 2 or 3 albums and done some widely circulated interviews explaining why he felt it was right to keep the name alive with a new group of musicians (back in 1997 or 1998).

People may not have liked all of his new music or thought it was right that he continued on, but I think that people would've been more likely to get over it if he'd been quicker to release new work. Also, so many of the criticisms wouldn't even exist (the "glorified cover band" comments and the "$14 million and 10 years to make one album" pot shots).

Touring figures in the US/Canada, with the exception of a few markets, have been basically the same for 2002, 2006, and 2011. The 2006 tour was actually the most successful in terms of overall ticket sales and average gross

In comparison to the 2002 tour, the 2011 was virtually identical, only it was driven down by the performance of several smaller gigs, and the lack of shows at two of GnR's most successful markets in the new era, Toronto and/or NYC (MSG), both of which were good for the largest audiences (by a good margin) when they those cities in 2002 and 2006

You can't oversaturate the market. They just did an arena tour in 2011; they need to wait another year or two before doing so again, but they'll be able to do it and draw solid crowds.

2002 >>>> 2011-2013

At the MSG show and a few others, sure. The 2002 MSG show was amazing. But he had some pretty bad nights during that era (particularly the 2002 VMA show)

It is the worst time to be a GNR fan for the pure and simple fact that Axl's getting worst performance wise.

He's not any worse now than he was at most of the shows in 2002. Back then people were saying he was done, his voice was shot, etc. and he came back strong in 2006 and 2010. His voice has always been finnicky. His physical conditioning on the most recent tour has been less than ideal. It seems he's enjoying life on the road, partying a lot and obviously at 50+ that takes a larger toll than it used to. I haven't watched any clips from the most recent tour, but the Governor's Ball seems to have gotten rave reviews.

I would guess that if he drops another new album (the remaining stuff from the CD sessions) he'll be more focused when he hits the road again.

In 2006, Axl said they had 32 songs, 26 of which were "almost" done

In 2011 (or 2012, can't remember exactly), Tommy said there were 22 "completed" songs from the CD era that remained unreleased.

So yeah, it's not quite the trilogy that Bach mentioned. It's more like 1.5 albums of material left.

For what it's worth, the Smashing Pumpkins and Beach Boys releases are still "TBA" as well. That's 3 of the 5 original shows listed; Korn's DVD is out and Jane's Addiction is slated for 6/25. It is easy to be pessimistic after so many previous false starts but GnR isn't alone, so hopefully these will get dates soon.

The 1999 demo was my favorite earlier version of the song. Had a really cool, spaced out vibe, completely different feel than the final version. Would love to hear the full 1999 version of the album someday.

People obviously don't remember the aborted tour at the end of 2002, made that much worse by the fact that they seemed to have finally hit their stride with a great performance at MSG.

Whatever happened, the plug getting pulled on that tour was really shocking and we didn't even know who was still in the band (or if the band still existed) for several years. This incident led to Buckethead's departure and from the tour cancellation until early 2006 there was no news, no communication (aside from the press release about the RIR performance getting canceled and Buckethead being out of the band), no real hints of the album being released, etc.

IRS rocked hard live during the 2006 shows. The ones I attended I thought it was one of the two or three best/most entertaining songs in terms of Axl and the band's performance. I remember it being one of the highlights along with Nightrain and Out Ta Get Me in that regard.

I think the lyrics in the verses are very good. Lyrically the chorus is a bit silly, but it's a play on the old saying "don't make a federal case out of it," i.e. make a big deal over something that's seemingly trivial. In that context I always thought it was fitting. Cool song. The only knock against it (for me) is that it takes a while to get going. It's a fun, rocking song but it doesn't really start to "kick ass" until a minute or so in.

The label only gets a percentage of touring money if the band is signed to a 360 deal. GnR doesn't have a 360 deal, so that doesn't really apply here.

From what I've heard, Axl is holding out for a larger marketing budget (e.g. advertising campaign, a decent budget for a music video, etc.).

The label knows that they can release the album and sell 2-3 million copies worldwide without a big marketing campaign. This is what they want to do; they don't want to invest a lot of money marketing an album from an aging rockband with a large global fanbase, when they could instead spend it marketing younger, more pop oriented acts, where the marketing would return a higher return.

Additionally, I've heard that GnR has multiple albums left on their deal, so they won't turn GnR into free agents by releasing the next album.

The people saying that the label aren't interested in releasing a new GnR album are high (or trolling). CD was the #14 selling album worldwide in 2008, and was only out 5 weeks that year. Even if the followup only sells half of what CD did, it would still sell more than 99.9% of the albums released these days. The label would love to release a new GnR album comprised of existing songs, since it would essentially be pure profit for them (less distribution and marketing costs). However, they can't force Axl to release the album. And he can't force them to agree to the marketing budget and campaign that he wants. This is where they've been for a couple of years.

Additionally, there's not much financial incentive for Axl to release the album, aside from perhaps some amount of rejuvenated interest in future tours. His comment in 2009 was that they hoped to be working CD for a good while before focusing on a new record. They've been touring on and off for 3.5 years, so hopefully he's decided it is time to release the next album.

Tommy said earlier in the year that his goal for 2013 was to see a Replacements record and GnR record get released.

Looks like everyone in GnR is doing their own thing this summer/fall after the final Canadian festival date(s).

Its actually good news for GnR fans that all of this is happening, as it looks like the touring is on hold. We already know that the next album is basically (or completely) done from a recording standpoint, so hopefully Axl will spend the rest of the year sorting through the business issues and finally getting the thing released.

There are plenty of quotes about RTB's process and how it wasn't working, or at least working efficiently. I'm not just making it up, and it's not just Tommy Stinson who said it. Like I said, Tom Zutaut and Brain have both said similar things.

Fully briefed, Zutaut entered the studio the next day without Axl and met with Roy Thomas Baker, with whom he had worked at Elektra Records. Axl had asked Zutaut to help with the drum sound for the album’s title track. The singer had told Baker that he wanted the same drum sound as Dave Grohl on Nirvana’s “Smells Like Teen Spirit,” the breakthrough hit from the group’s album Nevermind. Baker and his production crew claimed they had it, but Axl was not satisfied.

After hearing the track for himself, Zutaut agreed with Axl. He took a break and went to the local Tower Records, where he bought a copy of Nevermind. Back in the studio, he and Baker set to work matching the drum sounds. “I guess maybe they heard the Nirvana hits on the radio and they just thought that they knew the sound,” Zutaut says. “But none of them had thought to just go buy the album and listen to it.”

They sent the finished recording to the Axl, who called Zutaut straight away. “I’ve only been asking for that for, like, six fucking months!” he said. “I wish I’d called you a couple of years ago. Can you come out here and do this?” Zutaut said he’d talk to Interscope/Geffen about it. He would, after all, be working for the label, not Axl.

...

“There was a bit of creative tension with Roy Thomas Baker,” Zutaut says. “Not because Roy is doing anything wrong or isn’t a great producer or anything like that. But you know, some people have friction. It’s like oil and water. It might have been cultural differences.”

Didn't Axl submit the album in a few times and the label wanted them to redo it? Had it came out as intended, back in 2003, then we may have had 2-3 more albums now.

It happened at least once, back in 2000 or so, shortly after Buckethead had joined and the label hired Roy Thomas Baker to come in and complete the album. Per Tommy, he basically wasted a bunch of time and millions of dollars by having them re-record songs that were already done a bunch of times.

I'm sure, looking back, they wish they would've just released the album at that point.

Seriously, do you believe this from Tommy--just another narrow sided take from the Guns camp that doesn't add up. I guess Roy Thomas Baker and Bob Ezrin are both POS producers who just didn't grasp the brilliance of the early recordings and were at fault for creating a costly mess. Here's a Ezrin interview where he talks about trying to deal with a near impossible situation with Axl missing most of the time. Nah, that couldn't be true.

I never said that RTB was a "POS" producer and I didn't mention Bob Ezrin at all. I also didn't say they "failed to grasp the genius" of the earlier recordings.

All I said was that I bet that looking back, the label wishes they'd just released the album as it existed in 2000 or 2001.

Brain and Tom Zutaut have also mentioned the inefficiency and reckless spending that was going on during the RTB era. It's not that he's a not a good producer, it's that he wasn't the right man for the job at that time. They needed someone to convince Axl the album was done, not that every single note of what they'd written needed to be re-recorded and perfected.

Yes, but unfortunately the second half hasn't been released yet

The "Big 4" on UYI (November Rain, Coma, Locomotive, Estranged) were a sign of GnR leaning in a more of prog rock direction. If they'd continued evolving in that direction they could've made a pretty amazing progressive album in the mid-90s.

Everyone wants the album.

Unfortunately I think Axl's painted himself into a corner with the current bandmembers. Some of the guys, particularly Ron and DJ, probably want to write new material so they can contribute to the process creatively.

But there's already 22 completed songs remaining from the CD era, and Axl probably wants to put those out. If he releases a new album of material from the CD-era and tours on it for another 2, 3, or 4 years, will guys in the current lineup who didn't contribute to it get fed up and quit?

At the same time, I doubt the label wants to invest money in recording and releasing new material when they already have an album that they know they can dump on shelves and it will sell several million copies worldwide with minimal costs outside of producing and distributing the physical product.

Bottom line, they should've released the CD follow up (with the remaining tracks from that era) in 2011 or 2012 (if not earlier).

Didn't Axl submit the album in a few times and the label wanted them to redo it? Had it came out as intended, back in 2003, then we may have had 2-3 more albums now.

It happened at least once, back in 2000 or so, shortly after Buckethead had joined and the label hired Roy Thomas Baker to come in and complete the album. Per Tommy, he basically wasted a bunch of time and millions of dollars by having them re-record songs that were already done a bunch of times.

I'm sure, looking back, they wish they would've just released the album at that point.

Would love to hear what songs were on that album.

Gotta think they were songs like Shacklers and Scraped and Sorry.

Imagine if you were running a label and had invested millions of dollars into Axl and his vision of what the new GnR was going to be.

Axl walks in and you say show me what you've been working on. Blow me away. Let's show the world that you still got it, and that GnR is still a force to be reckoned with.

And Axl played Scraped for you.

You wouldn't kick him out of the room and tell him to come back later with a different group of songs?

It was before any of those songs are likely to have been written. The Sean Beavan to RTB era, the stuff we know was completed (in some form) was:

On CD:

Chinese

Riad

The Blues

Madagascar

Catcher

Prostitute

TWAT

IRS

This I Love

Unrelease/Not On Album:

Oh My God

Silkworms

Atlas Shrugged

Oklahoma/Berlin

Probably some others

The "newer" songs on CD were Shackler's, Better, If The World, Scraped and Sorry.

Didn't Axl submit the album in a few times and the label wanted them to redo it? Had it came out as intended, back in 2003, then we may have had 2-3 more albums now.

It happened at least once, back in 2000 or so, shortly after Buckethead had joined and the label hired Roy Thomas Baker to come in and complete the album. Per Tommy, he basically wasted a bunch of time and millions of dollars by having them re-record songs that were already done a bunch of times.

I'm sure, looking back, they wish they would've just released the album at that point.

There are 22 completed songs that could be released as the next album. Why they don't go ahead and release it at this point is anybody's guess.

In a perfect world they'd hit the studio this year, release the remaining CD material this year, and release a new album by the current lineup in a year or two.

Hopefully, at the very least, we get to hear the remaining CD stuff at some point in the next year or two.

Did they forget that you're allowed to move around onstage? What a dull, lifeless performance. Zero energy. LOL at Myles trying to fire up the crowd.

"the shows were jukebox hit shows. And Axl was pretty content with that, make no mistakes about it. There was no musical integrity involved, no matter how much Axl likes to portray himself as an integrity guy."

"We warned Bucket before joining it would not be about the music at all but he gave it a shot after Axl's incessant promises. Axl is very good in being manipulative and convincing."

"And now look at what GNR is. Why would any musician with integrity who wants to be creative and make proper music even think of joining this?"

I don't have to twist anything. These are your direct quotes, stating pretty clearly that Axl didn't care at about musical integrity or new music.

Let me quote you again:

"We warned Bucket before joining it would not be about the music at all but he gave it a shot after Axl's incessant promises. Axl is very good in being manipulative and convincing."

So what are you saying here? Seems pretty clear that you're saying that Axl tricked or manipulated Buckethead into joining the band by making empty promises about his intention to focus on new music. But again, why would he even bother going out of his way to land Bucket and write music with him if these weren't his intentions at the time (regardless of whether he succeeded at following through with those intentions). So what was the addition of Buckethead about, if not "the music?"

We have another poster who seems far more credible (just as detailed a description, but lacking the bitterness), who states that Axl was indeed interested in focusing on new music during the 2002 tour, but that he received pushback from the tour promoters.