rabia

I'm actually all for the song, i think it's great, it's art and EVERYTHING should be represented in art, the repugnant included and quite frankly, the sentiment in this song ain't some alien sentiment, a lot of the outrage comes from people who understand the concept it espouses full and well i think. I think it's a brilliant song and possibly one of my favorite vocal turns by Axl, along with the slowed down You're Crazy.

On a man to man level though, it's a pussy flex and it's something a very rich very well protected young man said and quite frankly only had the nerve to say because he was rich and well protected.

To me it's well explained and, from artists perspective it's water-tight. Axl, from what i've read of the man, comes across, on a person to person level, as a bit of a bottlejob. Bottlejobs react with anger and spite when they get afraid and this is something Axl himself admitted when describing some incident where he got chased out of 7/11 by some bloke with a cleaver. Thats like, textbook shaky hand, suspect chin stuff.

Basically some black geezers and rared up to him and he had a bit of a sulk about it and lashed out at "n-iggers" and immigrants, whatever, happens every day, kinda like the white kid in the black school who gets bullied so he starts reading Mein Kampf and sticking posters of giant swastikas on his wall, yeah mate, knees are knockin'

I think the way you make light of emotions like anger and fear is very dismissive.

Precisely BECAUSE Axl was rich and in the limelight, it was a far MORE tricky thing to release a sing like OIAM. Whether its dangerous to say something racially offensive depends on who you're saying it to- you dont have to be rich to get away with saying extremely hateful things if you say them before a bigoted audience and what you said will probably not be held against you 20 years down the line if you're not well known and nobody is keeping a record of things you said. If Axl was ONLY ruled by fear, the song would never ever have happened because it started a controversy in which he had very little chance of adequately explaining his vision.

Its not just in this case that Axl expressed his anger in a song. His art is primarily about taking intense emotions he felt in various situations and expressing them in all their human reality- the vulnerability, pain and ugliness all intact. Whether the targets to his pain/anger are the women he loved or critics or the subject matter of OIAM, its the same approach.

Out of the CD songs, I would like SOD and Madagascar to be dropped because they've been played so many times. Out of the older songs, YCBM (I've never liked this song much) and Rocket Queen.

Of course these are only my personal preferences and others would have their own likes and dislikes.

God, I love Axl's Mickey Mouse shirt... Do you know what it means? A big f*ck you to the complainers

If you spent half the time and energy that you spend on here sticking up for someone you don't even know in the REAL world, helping REAL human beings, you might actually do something great. Seriously, it's just a band. It's just music. Axl is not your father,brother,uncle or cousin. Chill out...lol

And who are you to say that it's just a band to me??? I think no one can judge about that!

It IS just a band lol.

God, I love Axl's Mickey Mouse shirt... Do you know what it means? A big f*ck you to the complainers

If you spent half the time and energy that you spend on here sticking up for someone you don't even know in the REAL world, helping REAL human beings, you might actually do something great. Seriously, it's just a band. It's just music. Axl is not your father,brother,uncle or cousin. Chill out...lol

Maybe you should take your own advice and spend all your waking minutes helping humanity rather than posting about a line-up of a band and a singer you obviously dont care for.

Music is art. I care about the ART Axl creates, not Axl. I don't know Axl Rose, so how am I suppose to care about him? I don't know anyone in his band, so how am I suppose to care for them? Do you see how logical that is? To care about someone, on a personal level, that you don't personally know is...a little weird. And that's me being nice.

Great points.

It will fly over the head of most of the worshippers though.

They equate undying devotion to Axl the person as a measurement of being a fan or not. To them, if you criticize something Axl does - then you are a cupcake hater who has no life. Even though you might actually be a bigger fan then they are. It is crazy.

I'm not a fan of Axl the person. He has had two different gfs file assault charges against him. Hitting a woman is disgusting in my book. Look at his history. The guy even admits that nobody is a bigger asshole than he is. But the worshippers don't care about any of that stuff.

As for Axl's art? I'm as die-hard of a fan as anybody here. I've been listening to the band non stop since 1988. I listen to GnR more than I listen to all other bands combined.

But to some I'm a hater cupcake. Because I don't worship a 50 year old rock singer. My idols are firemen, teachers, doctors, police men. Scientists trying to develop a cure for cancer. People that donate bone marrow or kidneys so others can live. Some people prefer to worship celebrities. I guess that is why Kim kardashian and Paris Hilton and rock singers are so popular. Just not my cup of tea.

Though I must admit that when I was 13 I did worship singer Samantha Fox. But most people grow out of celebrity worship as they become adults.

As for the topic.

I can't believe people are freaking out and fighting about it.

Axl sounds better in some shows than he does in others.

Performances usually sound better when you are there live. YouTube videos usually sound worse than what actually happened.

Axl still sounds great most of the time. And the touring band does a great job almost every show.

Haha! Once again more imagined complaints. Who here has said that you must have "undying devotion" to Axl? Nobody. You're lying again.

Who cares about your implicit claim that you're a bigger fan than others? Your religious crisis is nobody's concern- keep your issues of "worship" to yourself.

The funny thing is your claim that you only care about art while others who appreciate Axl do it only because of the cult of celebrity. Nobody died and made "art" your personal property. Everybody here has their own appreciation of art, GN'R's and other artists'.

Its just that for you, "art" must fall within boundaries that YOU want. You've continuously attacked Axl for not performing at the RRHOF saying that its an insult to the fans, yet GN'R keep playing great shows but those fans that are being entertained by the shows apparently don't count because hey, "art" only matters when it happens in the place and time of your choosing.

So, since you dont like the current version of the band or Axl's singing or pretty much the direction he's chosen in his art, why not give your precious time to helping humanity like you're advising others?

I don't recall telling you, or anyone in this thread that I dislike Axl's singing,artistic direction or band.

Its extremely clear from your posts. Okay just saw your post above.

So you really think the current band is good live. What about Axl's musical direction on CD (since you care about art so

much)?

I think CD is beautiful. I think songs like The Blues (it'll always be The Blues to me lol), Prostitute, TWAT,TIL and CITR are the highlights. Catcher being my favorite because it's so melodically palpable and I'm a big Beatles fan. I think CD as a whole could have done better commercially if it had dropped in the mid 90's but, it wasn't meant to be. But personally, that never has a bearing on whether or not I enjoy something. Some of my favorite albums of all time were either commercial flops or completely unnoticed.

I hope Axl and THIS band releases a fresh, relevant album because I'm anxious to see what they can do. They seem much more like a band than GNR 2.0 did and that usually leads to good things.

Yup, things seem much more harmonious and there's a good positive vibe among the guys which can be a very good influence on the future and hopefully on the next album.

So, since you dont like the current version of the band or Axl's singing or pretty much the direction he's chosen in his art, why not give your precious time to helping humanity like you're advising others?

I don't recall telling you, or anyone in this thread that I dislike Axl's singing,artistic direction or band.

Its extremely clear from your posts. Okay just saw your post above.

So you really think the current band is good live. What about Axl's musical direction on CD (since you care about art so

much)?

God, I love Axl's Mickey Mouse shirt... Do you know what it means? A big f*ck you to the complainers

If you spent half the time and energy that you spend on here sticking up for someone you don't even know in the REAL world, helping REAL human beings, you might actually do something great. Seriously, it's just a band. It's just music. Axl is not your father,brother,uncle or cousin. Chill out...lol

And who are you to say that it's just a band to me??? I think no one can judge about that!

It IS just a band lol.

God, I love Axl's Mickey Mouse shirt... Do you know what it means? A big f*ck you to the complainers

If you spent half the time and energy that you spend on here sticking up for someone you don't even know in the REAL world, helping REAL human beings, you might actually do something great. Seriously, it's just a band. It's just music. Axl is not your father,brother,uncle or cousin. Chill out...lol

Maybe you should take your own advice and spend all your waking minutes helping humanity rather than posting about a line-up of a band and a singer you obviously dont care for.

Music is art. I care about the ART Axl creates, not Axl. I don't know Axl Rose, so how am I suppose to care about him? I don't know anyone in his band, so how am I suppose to care for them? Do you see how logical that is? To care about someone, on a personal level, that you don't personally know is...a little weird. And that's me being nice.

Are you familiar with the nuances attached to the word care? Care not as in taking care or feeling emotionally attached. I meant care as in "I dont care for onion rings"- obviously the idea is not that you must get to know the onion rings on a personal level before you can decide.

So, since you dont like the current version of the band or Axl's singing or pretty much the direction he's chosen in his art, why not give your precious time to helping humanity like you're advising others?

God, I love Axl's Mickey Mouse shirt... Do you know what it means? A big f*ck you to the complainers

If you spent half the time and energy that you spend on here sticking up for someone you don't even know in the REAL world, helping REAL human beings, you might actually do something great. Seriously, it's just a band. It's just music. Axl is not your father,brother,uncle or cousin. Chill out...lol

Maybe you should take your own advice and spend all your waking minutes helping humanity rather than posting about a line-up of a band and a singer you obviously dont care for.

Groghan -

You called Soul Monster names. You insulted him. You accused him of insulting others. You insinuated that he's stupid. You said he takes the discussion too seriously. You talked about your background in journalism. You talked about your phone. You talk about it being okay to be civil, even though you weren't civil in your post.

You talked about a lot of things, but none of those things related in any way to any of the on topic points raised by Soul Monster.

He presented several logical explanations for why some shows might generate less discussion than others.

You managed to attack everything EXCEPT his argument.

Strange.

Rather typical, sadly. Its very hard to have a substantive debate with Groghan because he immediately falls back on labeling and putting words in people's mouths rather than responding to what they actually said.

The funny thing is that no matter what Groghan says, its the legitimate expression of his opinions. That's what forums are for. Whenever somebody else argues against Groghan's views, they are "dictating" to him or to the entire forum!

Groghan posts long essays in response to countless posts. But when somebody else expresses their position with any intensity or length, they "are taking the internet too seriously".

Its the same basic strategies over and over.

Funny, thanks for the morning laugh.

A bit ironic that your entire post is just insulting a forum member....while complaining that he insults people too much.

I always respond to the points of your posts (which are always the same. Axl is the best at everything and does no wrong, and anybody that disagrees is just a bitter hater). Your entire post about me pretty much described the way you post. That did make me laugh.

But anyway. Let's see how long it lasts. I am going to make an effort to only respond to your posts that are actually about the band, and not the ones whining about people who don't agree with you or the ones complaining about those who don't worship Axl. Let's see if you can stick to topics as well.

The morning laugh must have been at your own expense - nowhere did I use the word insult but the fact remains undeniable that the vast majority of your posts focus on labelling and gripe-fests which you use to try to cover up the fact that you cant answer the substantive arguments people raise.

You proved me right once again. I've asked you previously to show me where I called you a hater- you never could. Soul Monster asked you to show him where he has insulted someone for their musical taste and you just couldnt. So once again, you tried to cover up your lies by trying to put words in people's mouths.

I've already pointed out to you several times in previous arguments that I criticize Axl's decision to put Beta in a management position, I criticize his decision to not want to be inducted by the Hall of Fame. But you cant address this because it explodes to smithereens the strawman you build up ("Axl can do no wrong")- being too weak to deal with the ACTUAL content of people's posts. You must confuse an appreciation of a band with a religious issue because you bring up the word worship so much or maybe you're having a religious crisis of your own.

You havent addressed the questions I've asked you about substantive issues over and over again - you just run from threads and hide behind "industry insiders". You've already been laughed at by countless posters for your whine-fests in just about every thread. It will keep on happening so you'll have many many more chances to whine.

You will respond to my posts about the band? Haha! No, you'll just do the cowardly little thing and whine about me in threads where I dont even post - something you've done AT LEAST 3 times already.

Groghan -

You called Soul Monster names. You insulted him. You accused him of insulting others. You insinuated that he's stupid. You said he takes the discussion too seriously. You talked about your background in journalism. You talked about your phone. You talk about it being okay to be civil, even though you weren't civil in your post.

You talked about a lot of things, but none of those things related in any way to any of the on topic points raised by Soul Monster.

He presented several logical explanations for why some shows might generate less discussion than others.

You managed to attack everything EXCEPT his argument.

Strange.

Rather typical, sadly. Its very hard to have a substantive debate with Groghan because he immediately falls back on labeling and putting words in people's mouths rather than responding to what they actually said.

The funny thing is that no matter what Groghan says, its the legitimate expression of his opinions. That's what forums are for. Whenever somebody else argues against Groghan's views, they are "dictating" to him or to the entire forum!

Groghan posts long essays in response to countless posts. But when somebody else expresses their position with any intensity or length, they "are taking the internet too seriously".

Its the same basic strategies over and over.

You're a special one. I guess I am the moron in this debate, though. I actually entertained your excursion into irrelevance.

Admitting it is the first step.

Are you a teenager? That has to be the excuse.

Are you dodging my direct question? Yes, you are.

If Duff named the band about being fucked up then sure, it is hypocritical.

Now, how did that change the point?

There you go. See how hard it is for you to be critical of Duff and how easily it flows for Axl. But you got over the hump in the end. Good.

The "point" has already been answered at length in the other thread.

Duff kicks kittens!

You happy?

Huh? No. It has nothing to do with anything.

Are you a teenager? That has to be the excuse.

Are you dodging my direct question? Yes, you are.

I said it made him LOOK stupid. I didnt he is stupid. Show me proof where I applied a double standard. A lack of evidence doesn't help your case.

No actually, its your case that has been destroyed.

So you're willing to admit that Duff naming his band Loaded makers him LOOK "stupid, ironic and hypocritical" (your own words)?

You cant escape the double standard. You use such words for Axl but wont for Duff for the same behaviour. I rest my case.

You just can't let it go, can you?

I commented on something someone else posted here.

In the other topic you brought up Duff to get away from the point we were discussing so I ignored it.

What will satisfy you?

Nopes, I mentioned Duff to UNDERSCORE my logic about Axl, not mock Duff.

I questioned your definition of "ironic and stupid" and discovered that you were incapable of answering my point. I'm pretty satisfied right about now.

Whatever makes you happy. Finger pointing works wonders.

Haha! Yeah, asking you to judge Duff by the same standard as you do Axl is "finger-pointing".

Point taken. "We can discuss old members when it's to counter Axl criticisms but we can't discuss them when it is comparison based as to quality of the current band."

Such a genius concept.

You can post about the old band when its directly relevant to a particular thread for example when song-writing of the old songs is being discussed. The problem is when the old band is brought in as an attack on the new line-up simply to derail threads and to vent ever-lasting hatreds.

Unlike that, my use of the Duff reference wasnt as a put-down. It was a question to you about your double-standards. By refusing to use the same logic against Duff, you showed your one-sided perspective.

Show me "proof" of the double standard. I refused to address it because you were trying to detract.

Its plain as day. You're willing to call Axl stupid, ironic and hypocritical for something when you have not used the same epithets for Duff for the same behavior.

LOL omg.

What? Duff isnt capable of being ironic on purpose?

Why dont you address the issue of Duff's choice if the name Loaded so we can see where you stand? Why so scared?

You just can't let it go, can you?

I commented on something someone else posted here.

In the other topic you brought up Duff to get away from the point we were discussing so I ignored it.

What will satisfy you?

Nopes, I mentioned Duff to UNDERSCORE my logic about Axl, not mock Duff.

I questioned your definition of "ironic and stupid" and discovered that you were incapable of answering my point. I'm pretty satisfied right about now.

Whatever makes you happy. Finger pointing works wonders.

Haha! Yeah, asking you to judge Duff by the same standard as you do Axl is "finger-pointing".

Point taken. "We can discuss old members when it's to counter Axl criticisms but we can't discuss them when it is comparison based as to quality of the current band."

Such a genius concept.

You can post about the old band when its directly relevant to a particular thread for example when song-writing of the old songs is being discussed. The problem is when the old band is brought in as an attack on the new line-up simply to derail threads and to vent ever-lasting hatreds.

Unlike that, my use of the Duff reference wasnt as a put-down. It was a question to you about your double-standards. By refusing to use the same logic against Duff, you showed your one-sided perspective.

You just can't let it go, can you?

I commented on something someone else posted here.

In the other topic you brought up Duff to get away from the point we were discussing so I ignored it.

What will satisfy you?

Nopes, I mentioned Duff to UNDERSCORE my logic about Axl, not mock Duff.

I questioned your definition of "ironic and stupid" and discovered that you were incapable of answering my point. I'm pretty satisfied right about now.

Whatever makes you happy. Finger pointing works wonders.

Haha! Yeah, asking you to judge Duff by the same standard as you do Axl is "finger-pointing".

Duff has cleaned up his act, yet his band's name is Loaded.

I could be wrong, but I've always thought the Loaded name was part of the whole gun theme (Guns N' Roses, Velvet Revolver, etc). If that is incorrect, could somebody please provide a link to Duff explaining the origin of the name.

As for Manson, he was responsible for multiple murders. You don't have to be the one pulling the trigger or holding the knife to be a murderer, that's why Manson was found guilty of murder.

Loaded has other meanings too but the intoxication reference is a pretty well known one. If the intent was just to carry on the gun theme, he could have chosen better.

When he writes a new song about getting drunk, then the comparison is valid.

No the comparison is valid now. One song is not as important as the name of one's band. Obviously.

Duff has cleaned up his act, yet his band's name is Loaded.

I could be wrong, but I've always thought the Loaded name was part of the whole gun theme (Guns N' Roses, Velvet Revolver, etc). If that is incorrect, could somebody please provide a link to Duff explaining the origin of the name.

As for Manson, he was responsible for multiple murders. You don't have to be the one pulling the trigger or holding the knife to be a murderer, that's why Manson was found guilty of murder.

Loaded has other meanings too but the intoxication reference is a pretty well known one. If the intent was just to carry on the gun theme, he could have chosen better.

We get it man. You don't like Duff. That's cool.

I said nothing that suggests that. I do like Duff and his choice of the name might have been ironic too, kind of poking fun at the past. I just expected Rusty Cage to apply the same logic to him as he did to Axl.

Duff has cleaned up his act, yet his band's name is Loaded.

I could be wrong, but I've always thought the Loaded name was part of the whole gun theme (Guns N' Roses, Velvet Revolver, etc). If that is incorrect, could somebody please provide a link to Duff explaining the origin of the name.

As for Manson, he was responsible for multiple murders. You don't have to be the one pulling the trigger or holding the knife to be a murderer, that's why Manson was found guilty of murder.

Loaded has other meanings too but the intoxication reference is a pretty well known one. If the intent was just to carry on the gun theme, he could have chosen better.

You just can't let it go, can you?

I commented on something someone else posted here.

In the other topic you brought up Duff to get away from the point we were discussing so I ignored it.

What will satisfy you?

Nopes, I mentioned Duff to UNDERSCORE my logic about Axl, not mock Duff.

I questioned your definition of "ironic and stupid" and discovered that you were incapable of answering my point. I'm pretty satisfied right about now.

Wearing the shirt and using his song that including thanking him made him look like a dumb hypocrite.

You buy the cookie cutter response. Good for ya.

Axl is such an honest person. There. Happy? Moving on....

No more a "dumb hypocrite" than Duff preaching the horrors of an excessive lifestyle while calling his band Loaded?

If people dont understand a person's intention, any act can be distorted into what its not. You cant stop living your life because of that. There's nothing cookie cutter about Axl and that's part of the trouble that keeps him ticking.

Ballerinas are associated with raw punk energy? Yeah right.

That's your idea of punk?

Tommy Stinson is my idea of punk.

Interesting how you brought up Slash in this thread even though its about the current members. Using him as a "crutch"? Are you going to plead with him to get him out of his "80's" tendency (your words, not mine) to flip people off?

I brought up slash? Uh, no. I used a picture someone else posted of Slash and commented on the shirt. LOL

You werent the first to post the Slash picture but you arent uncomfortable talking about Slash here even though its a thread about the new members. Makes a joke of your being oh so unable to talk about Duff in another thread.

So tell me, are you upset at Slash's 80 tendencies too? Or is flipping somebody off only "80's" when current GN'R members do it?

I didn't bring him up, someone else did. Period. Stretch it and shape it any way you want but I was merely commenting on the funny shirt. Take your problem up with the OP of the picture.

I think a middle finger is old and cheesey. 30 years ago it was packaged rebellion and now it's just cornier. Does that answer your question? I'm not going to give criticism to Axl where I won't give it to any other member or ex-member.

Like I said you werent the first to post that picture but you were happy enough to comment on it, yet you ....justtt.... cantttt... comment on Duff in another thread going on right NOW. Its inconsistent, plain and simple. Its a healthy sign that you're willing to admit that Slash is capable of "cheesy" and "corny" things as you implicitly said.

The middle finger in Its So Easy is part of an old tradition. I dont see it dying away.

Again, I'm cutting out Duff references because either way, it doesn't get to the main point. Is finger pointing your normal response to everything?

I've answered the things you keep repeating but you have failed to answer me. If Axl were truly mocking him, why would he turn around and use a Manson song and thank him for it but at the same time not even list it?

The symbolism of it is that Manson was a monster cooked up in our own kitchen. Much like Axl felt he was. Sure, he was a cartoon but that excuse doesn't mix with his actions later.

Thanking him for the song does not translate into thanking him for his entire legacy, its simply about the song. As Axl said in an interview, he was drawn to the lyrics (probably a Stephanie Seymour thing).

He owns the copyright. Permission had to be granted to release it. Again, read this: I AM NOT SAYING HE ADVOCATES HIS LEGACY. My point is he was a contradictory person and that shirt made him look dumb.

Any more posting on this issue would just be me repeating myself....again.

Moving on....

I'm asking you to apply the same logic to Duff that you apply to Axl. That's not "finger-pointing", that's common sense. The fact that you're on the defensive about this is not my problem. So Duff's a contradictory, ironic person too?

I've answered you repeatedly but you pretend not to notice. Using Manson's song when you think the lyrics are relevant to your situation with your ex-girlfriend does NOT equate any kind of approval for Manson's ideology. Not listing it brought the song more attention - another of Axl's stated goals. None of this clashes in any way with thinking of Manson himself as a cartoon. If you are deeply resentful of an actor's political views, does that mean you cant like his/her acting?

There's no need to give an "excuse"- Axl's position was clear through the cartoon comment. You dont get to decide what "symbolism" the image had for Axl - he described his perception of Manson in his own words.

The lyrics to OIAM were problematic but the protagonist himself says that "its been such a long time since I knew right from wrong"- hardly an attempt to pass himself off as somebody whose words should be embraced. GN'R were advocating murdering women with Used to Love Her, right?

Where did I say he ever advocated anything? Are you just reading the first few words of my post and then adding your own ideas to it? Again, my only intention for the comment is it made him look stupid. It still does. If he was doing it to be intentionally ironic then so be it.

I heard the song several times but never heard Axl thank Manson. I thought he said thanks Jack to a sound engineer.But now that I read the lyrics, there's the "credit" to the original writer that you were so concerned about.

Thanks Chaz and then he says Jack.

That's not a song writing credit. I don't think you even know this band completely, sorry. It was known by a lot that he thanks him at the end. Manson brags about it.

I'm reading your whole posts and sadly you're avoiding big chunks of mine because you cant answer them. And no, not being able to pick up a word in a GN'R song doesnt in any way, shape or form mean that I "dont know this band completely"- the debate about whether its said woman or sad woman in Patience goes on among the knowlegable members of this site.

If irony flies over certain people's heads then perhaps they're the ones who are stupid. So your view is that Duff's decision to call his band Loaded was very ironic and stupid? That's the only conclusion going by your own logic.

Manson's bragging about it doesnt change the views that Axl expressed on Manson just like some entrenched misogynist's embracing Used to Love Her as his theme song wont implicate GN'R in his sick minded world view.

I answered after I noticed you edited it in.

Have you not heard the song, he thanks him at the very end.

Yeah I thought he said thanks Jack. I thought Jack must be some sound guy, there are a lot of muttered words at the start or end of GNR songs and sometimes they're hard to make out.

I could never make out one line in Dont Cry and a friend of mine told me that it goes "Dont you cry tonight i still love you baby, dont you cry tonight there's a helicopter above you" and I thought it plausible because there's a helicopter in the video.

OK, so what is he thanking him for? This is different than giving writing credit as they wanted to hide the writer of the song.

Manson's whole popular image has stemmed from his point that this system created him. Much like family life or celebrity could create a monster. THAT is what I feel the symbolism of shirt is about. Mocking him and then thanking him for the song seems a little backwards, doesn't it?

Thanking him for the song does not translate into thanking him for his entire legacy, its simply about the song. As Axl said in an interview, he was drawn to the lyrics (probably a Stephanie Seymour thing).